Kulubnarti Nubian G25 Samples

[The alchemist]

@Apollo @Shimbiris @Nilotic

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[The alchemist]

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[The alchemist]

The one sample with substantial Mota-like ancestry is a E-V32:

 

[Nilotic]

I'll readily admit that I can't really read that data.

I still don't understand how the admixture compositions (from a mtdna perspective) completely flipped in relation to modern populations; how is it that modern Nubians and Riverine Sudanese Arabs are almost entirely African (maternally) whereas this was the opposite with these samples.


What explains the relatively sudden shift?

 

[Aurelian]

@The alchemist what that means for the amateurs?

 

[The alchemist]

I'll readily admit that I can't really read that data.

I still don't understand how the admixture compositions (from a mtdna perspective) completely flipped in relation to modern populations; how is it that modern Nubians and Riverine Sudanese Arabs are almost entirely African (maternally) whereas this was the opposite with these samples.


What explains the relatively sudden shift?

I do not agree that it completely flipped. Modern Nubians, Sudanese Arabs and all the adjacent groups to variate frequences still carry both the mtDNA and Y-DNA we see from those Christian Nubian samples from Kulubnarti. We can characterize the mtDNA Kulubnarti from the R and S-cemetery 40% and 50% ‘African’ respectively, with most existing within modern Sudan and almost completely showing presence in the broader region of East Africa sourcing Cushitic populations and/or Southeast African Cushitic derived non-Cushitic speakers.

Modern Sudanese groups, the ones in question in particular, have experienced the influence of gene flow from the Arab Peninsular to some degree with regard to autosomal makeup. Some tribes have a bit more than others, but this does not mean the Arab genetic influence always completely dominates the total Eurasian component, that is a myth. On the Y-DNA side, the Arab influence is substantial. There are a lot of plausible explanations on why this one is large relative to the others but this requires a more in-depth and speculative range of inquiry that I do not want to spend time on at the moment. Still, do not let the high Arab J fool you, the Sudanese carry most of those Y-DNA haplogroups of those Christian Nubians.

And then we have to address the central point. Namely, the Kulubnarti Nubians are not to be considered completely representatives of Nubians of their time on rational principle alone. This has to be stressed. They were a part of the greater diversity of Nubians of that time, a fact that has been proven both through autosomal genetic makeup and uniparental evidence, but we cannot assume they harbored a complete representation. An important thing to factor in is human demographics across space are dynamic through time, especially in that region. To have a reasonable thought around this is to remember that nothing usually stays the exact same, internal socio-cultural changes alone can skew things considerably.

 

[The alchemist]

@The alchemist what that means for the amateurs?

The list of things I posted were samples from this study. They are coordinates that can be used to check the genetic approximations using other ancient and/or modern samples of populations or plot to see how they fit into a PCA relative to other groups, both modern and ancient, to measure different dimensions of the ancestry of the samples in question to inform of possible important details in light of various constrains.

 

[Som]

I do not agree that it completely flipped. Modern Nubians, Sudanese Arabs and all the adjacent groups to variate frequences still carry both the mtDNA and Y-DNA we see from those Christian Nubian samples from Kulubnarti. We can characterize the mtDNA Kulubnarti from the R and S-cemetery 40% and 50% ‘African’ respectively, with most existing within modern Sudan and almost completely showing presence in the broader region of East Africa sourcing Cushitic populations and/or Southeast African Cushitic derived non-Cushitic speakers.

Modern Sudanese groups, the ones in question in particular, have experienced the influence of gene flow from the Arab Peninsular to some degree with regard to autosomal makeup. Some tribes have a bit more than others, but this does not mean the Arab genetic influence always completely dominates the total Eurasian component, that is a myth. On the Y-DNA side, the Arab influence is substantial. There are a lot of plausible explanations on why this one is large relative to the others but this requires a more in-depth and speculative range of inquiry that I do not want to spend time on at the moment. Still, do not let the high Arab J fool you, the Sudanese carry most of those Y-DNA haplogroups of those Christian Nubians.

And then we have to address the central point. Namely, the Kulubnarti Nubians are not to be considered completely representatives of Nubians of their time on rational principle alone. This has to be stressed. They were a part of the greater diversity of Nubians of that time, a fact that has been proven both through autosomal genetic makeup and uniparental evidence, but we cannot assume they harbored a complete representation. An important thing to factor in is human demographics across space are dynamic through time, especially in that region. To have a reasonable thought around this is to remember that nothing usually stays the exact same, internal socio-cultural changes alone can skew things considerably.

I agree. Kulubnarti is not far from Egypt and the we know that historically christian Nubia had close relations with Christians in Egypt.
I believe the vast majority of ancient and medieval nubian would show similar SSA vs Eurasian proportion to Horn Africans.

 

[The alchemist]

I agree. Kulubnarti is not far from Egypt and the we know that historically christian Nubia had close relations with Christians in Egypt.
I believe the vast majority of ancient and medieval nubian would show similar SSA vs Eurasian proportion to Horn Africans.

There is a possibility that earlier Nubians were widely as Sub-Saharan as Omotics like Aari and less than Somalis at the same time within the same population. We don't see that type of variation with these people because they were basically all closely related which stabilizes things into a mean baseline of sort where the vertical range is lower when contrasting WA/SSA. One thing to note is that the Nubian from the Roman burials was in the same range on PCA as these.

The Kulubnarti cemetery people had a very big, on average half Cushitic-like signature.

 

[Som]

There is a possibility that earlier Nubians were widely as Sub-Saharan as Omotics like Aari and less than Somalis at the same time within the same population. We don't see that type of variation with these people because they were basically all closely related which stabilizes things into a mean baseline of sort where the vertical range is lower when contrasting WA/SSA. One thing to note is that the Nubian from the Roman burials was in the same range on PCA as these.

The Kulubnarti cemetery people had a very big, on average half Cushitic-like signature.

Do we have DNA studies on pre Christian meroitic nubians? It would be interesting to compare their SSA vs Eurasian percentages with the kulubnarti samples

 

[The alchemist]

Do we have DNA studies on pre Christian meroitic nubians? It would be interesting to compare their SSA vs Eurasian percentages with the kulubnarti samples

No, we do not have the DNA of older periods. All we have are anthropology, archeology, disciplines that give context, important features we have to not undermine.

People and I included wanted results from the early ancients of the region. I can’t complain, these people give us a lot of information too. What we need is a comprehensive representative sample set from the pre-Christian period, and preferably something that goes back to pre-agriculture.

Moreover, there is a need for modern Sudanese cords to do a comparative investigation. There are many on Gedmatch, but G25 is better.

 

[tariq moses]

There is a possibility that earlier Nubians were widely as Sub-Saharan as Omotics like Aari and less than Somalis at the same time within the same population. We don't see that type of variation with these people because they were basically all closely related which stabilizes things into a mean baseline of sort where the vertical range is lower when contrasting WA/SSA. One thing to note is that the Nubian from the Roman burials was in the same range on PCA as these.

The Kulubnarti cemetery people had a very big, on average half Cushitic-like signature.

wdym by early?

eurasian like ancestry was present in sudan for a long time

 

[The alchemist]

wdym by early?

eurasian like ancestry was present in sudan for a long time

Earlier = pre-Christian. Read the context of the response next time.

Did I ever state Eurasian ancestry was not present in Sudan? No one here believes in that notion.

 

[tariq moses]

Earlier = pre-Christian. Read the context of the response next time.

Did I ever state Eurasian ancestry was not present in Sudan? No one here believes in that notion.

lol it was a simple question chill, its ntd

 

[The alchemist]

lol it was a simple question chill, its ntd

Sure.

 

[Cognitive]

How much Mota-related ancestry (on average) do these Christian Nubians carry?
Additionally, how much Mota-related ancestry do people expect to find in that recently sampled Kerman individual?
Are we to assume that Mota-related ancestry had a strong impact on early Lower Nubians (and by extension the second-millennium BC inhabitants near the Second Cataract of the Nile)?