June 26, Somali independence day. Not July 1

[Gantaal97]

@The Crowe this is a passage from a UN security council paper from as late as 1999. I have read this a long time ago but forgot about it for a while. You see Cigaal was keeping his options open like expected of any politician. You have to admit he was a larger than life character and very different from the current crop of Isaaq politicians. He was writing letters asking countries not to lift the arms embargo in Somalia because the old Soviet weapons were rusty and would stop working whilst new weaponry only continued the bloodshed.

Cigaal if he was closest unionist he wouldn't have taken the presidency from Cali Tuur who was unionist or established different currency and also ensuring in the constitution that Somaliland is an independent sovereign republics which his administration had played a part of the drafting of the new constitution which was put in a vote in 2001

 

[Periplus]

Cigaal if he was closest unionist he wouldn't have taken the presidency from Cali Tuur who was unionist or established different currency and also ensuring in the constitution that Somaliland is an independent sovereign republics which his administration had played a part of the drafting of the new constitution which was put in a vote in 2001

Egal was separatist if Somalia did not get its act together. During that period and even now, Somalia has not got its act together.

Tuur wanted to negotiate regardless of Somalia's situation.

 

[Gantaal97]

Mussolini believed in a Greater Somalia (see La Grande Somalia) alot more than Britain ☠. They invaded Somaliland, parts of Djibouti, parts of NFD and the Ogaden to even make it a reality. Remember the Italians hated Ethiopia alot more than the English, who merely tolerated them and tossed Selassie a bone because they cared more about Oil rich Libya and keeping the Soviets away in agreement with their ol buddy USA. Italy's catholicism was not only conflicting with the ailing orthodox Empire of Ethiopia, the Fascists were near leaning towards Communists who would have sided with Somalia against Ethiopia and her hereditary allies the US.

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The SYL was right to ask for a trusteeship under the 4 Powers instead of Britain or Italy if Independence could not be granted immediately. Britain 100% would have sold us out to Ethiopia as they had done already in the Ogaden, Haud, Reserve Area and passing NFD onto Kenya. The fact they gave away their possessions of Eritrea AND the Ogaden when they could have bargained to keep the Ogaden under the BMA and possibly unite it with the North just shows to me the English will always deal with us in bad faith.

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The most realistic reason why Italy was invited back was because Italy still had commercial rights in Somalia despite not administering it directly for a number of years. The rest of the World decided giving attention to Somalia was not worth it and hence all 5 territories went back to their old Colonial masters.

This is what Italy UN administration done to Somalia which is still suffering from it to this day.

 

[Gantaal97]

Egal was separatist if Somalia did not get its act together. During that period and even now, Somalia has not got its act together.

Tuur wanted to negotiate regardless of Somalia's situation.

If that was the case why draft constitution the makes a reunification harder??
I will link this video again of cigaal speech to the Guurtida

 

[Periplus]

This is what Italy UN administration done to Somalia which is still suffering from it to this day.
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The divide the Italians tried to do was pit the RX against Hawiye and MJs.

The SYL was dominated by Hawiye and MJ whereas the pro-Italian groups were led by Zoppe who was RX. The Italians also tried to get RX in Baidoa to kill SYL leaders who were imprisoned in Baidoa. However, most RX gave up on the pro-Italian agenda towards the end of the trusteeship period.

Zoppe became a cabinet minister and all was forgiven. The Hawiye MJ split was under Barre not the Italians.

 

[Periplus]

If that was the case why draft constitution the makes a reunification harder??
I will link this video again of cigaal speech to the Guurtida

In his speech, he says he will never allow cities in SL to be ruled from Mogadishu again.

He is right. I do not think that a unionist Egal would have accepted the status quo again. He would have got a very SL beneficial deal from the Somali government that he could take as a victory back to Hargeisa.

 

[Gantaal97]

In his speech, he says he will never allow cities in SL to be ruled from Mogadishu again.

He is right. I do not think that a unionist Egal would have accepted the status quo again. He would have got a very SL beneficial deal from the Somali government that he could take as a victory back to Hargeisa.

There was nothing to go back from here's Cigaal comments after the Somaliland constitutional referendum.

"He said the results of the referendum also brought to an end the question of whether Somaliland should ever reunite with Somalia. "

BBC News | AFRICA | Somaliland: No way back

news.bbc.co.uk

 

[BigBreak]

@Periplus no reunification agreement can ever be reached between SL and Somalia because each side will have a zero sum attitude which actually isn't a problem, everyone should take care of themselves only

Only an official two separate countries solution is the way forward

 

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

If he was incredibly loved there wouldn't have been the Maryalool clan wars as plenty of Isaaq opposed him in his early years, i can show you Keydmedia clips of SNM officials in Xamar denouncing Somaliland.

Saaxib, having read a lot of your posts while I was a lurker for awhile, I thought you were more knowledgeable and had more sense than you are showing here.

The Maryalool clan wars were exactly that - clan based. They had nothing to with love/like/respect of Cigaal (AUN). The Ciidagalle clan felt the government was incorrect to insist on all revenue from Hargeisa Airport, in a part of Hargeisa that they traditionally live, being controlled by the central government. From there it evolved into a clan war. This had nothing to do with respect, love or hate for any man. For example, Xaaji Cabdi Waraabe (AUN) was a universally loved peacemaker in Somaliland. However, if he came at that time to Berbera telling the locals he was going to take control of the port and its revenues for the government, the locals would have taken up arms and fought the government. That was a time when the government was not fully established and people eyed incursion into "their territories" with suspicion.

What never happened is the BS you wrote about that people were threatening to kill Cigaal specifically because they were against the idea of him mediating between Mahdi and Caydeed. One, they wouldn't have had an issue with anyone doing that. And two, they certainly wouldn't have a problem with Cigaal, who was highly respected throughout the former Somali republic doing that. Even if Cigaal had

As far as SNM officials denouncing Somaliland. Lol, I can't believe you think that is worth mentioning here. Yes, there were ex-SNM, who when defeated in the wars, or in politics, in Somaliland ran to Xamar, denouncing Somaliland. Just like you have the likes of Mahdi Guleed and Dubbe, who when they failed in Somaliland run to Xamar today, crying about the 'Somalidiid' that exists in Somaliland. Dude, that is such an embarrasing self-own, I'm surprised you'd go for that.

I think Cigaal is indeed a great state builder and it was easy to poetify him - the man who signed away the State of Somaliland now taking the State back.

Your lack of knowledge on this topic astounds me. Cigaal was known as being an ardent opponent of the union, I can share many sources confirming this. However, he and the other anti-union assemblyman in the former British Somaliland, were outvoted by those that wanted to unite. The assembly chose him as their leader, so he did his duty and signed the agreement to unite with the south. To frame that as "the man who signed away the State of Somaliland" in this conversation, is unbelievably ignorant and ahistoric.

 

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

@The Crowe this is a passage from a UN security council paper from as late as 1999. I have read this a long time ago but forgot about it for a while. You see Cigaal was keeping his options open like expected of any politician. You have to admit he was a larger than life character and very different from the current crop of Isaaq politicians. He was writing letters asking countries not to lift the arms embargo in Somalia because the old Soviet weapons were rusty and would stop working whilst new weaponry only continued the bloodshed.

I haven't read this yet as I want to substantiate it's real first. I searched it using different quotes from the this supposed UN security council paper, and all that comes up is disreputable sites like reliefweb and refworld, who claim the UN Security council as sources, but don't provide any links or the name of the UN papaer. The UN Security Council publishes all of its reports. Where is the actual paper, so we know its genuine?

 

[Gadhwayne]

@Periplus and @Mckenzie are on the right track Cigaal would accepted a fair reunification unification deal assuming Muqdisho was under a competent government. That would mean no clan federalism that relagates JSL to the same status as a province of exSomaaliaItaaliana.

periplus is mistaken about 1960 State ofSomaliland being unprepared for statehood. 1960 Somaaliland had recognition. JSL was even less prepared for statehood in 1991 yet JSL is still standing.

1960 Northerners leaders were idealists desperate to liberate SomalieFrancaise and Hawd andReserved areas. They did not properly plan how to unite with the Italian trusteeship ofSomaalia. That explains why the union happened and why it was dysfunctional

@The Crowe is right Cigaal would not repeat the same mistake he made in 1960. Cigaal was a Machiavellian pragmatist. He was willing to take a fair deal but never agree to make Somaaliland go from being the eldest born son of the 5 GreaterSomaaliland states to becoming a province of ex SomaaliaItaaliana, the 2nd born daughter among the 5 GreaterSoomaliland states

 

[reer]

The SYL was right to ask for a trusteeship under the 4 Powers i

imagine soviets got the territories as trusteeship instead. stalin vs geeljires they would do a coup in 1960 and put us in. the somali soviet socialist republic.

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[Dharbaaxo Jin]

[@The Crowe is right Cigaal would not repeat the same mistake he made in 1960. Cigaal was a Machiavellian pragmatist. He was willing to take a fair deal but never agree to make Somaaliland go from being the eldest born son of the 5 GreaterSomaaliland states to becoming a province of ex SomaaliaItaaliana, the 2nd born daughter among the 5 GreaterSoomaliland states

What mistake did Cigaal make in 1960? It is documented he was against the union. However, as the anti-unionists were outvoted by the unionists in the Somaliland Assembly, Cigaal as first Minister, led the delegation that went south to formalize the union.

 

[Mckenzie]

Saaxib, having read a lot of your posts while I was a lurker for awhile, I thought you were more knowledgeable and had more sense than you are showing here.

The Maryalool clan wars were exactly that - clan based. They had nothing to with love/like/respect of Cigaal (AUN). The Ciidagalle clan felt the government was incorrect to insist on all revenue from Hargeisa Airport, in a part of Hargeisa that they traditionally live, being controlled by the central government. From there it evolved into a clan war. This had nothing to do with respect, love or hate for any man. For example, Xaaji Cabdi Waraabe (AUN) was a universally loved peacemaker in Somaliland. However, if he came at that time to Berbera telling the locals he was going to take control of the port and its revenues for the government, the locals would have taken up arms and fought the government. That was a time when the government was not fully established and people eyed incursion into "their territories" with suspicion.

What never happened is the BS you wrote about that people were threatening to kill Cigaal specifically because they were against the idea of him mediating between Mahdi and Caydeed. One, they wouldn't have had an issue with anyone doing that. And two, they certainly wouldn't have a problem with Cigaal, who was highly respected throughout the former Somali republic doing that. Even if Cigaal had

As far as SNM officials denouncing Somaliland. Lol, I can't believe you think that is worth mentioning here. Yes, there were ex-SNM, who when defeated in the wars, or in politics, in Somaliland ran to Xamar, denouncing Somaliland. Just like you have the likes of Mahdi Guleed and Dubbe, who when they failed in Somaliland run to Xamar today, crying about the 'Somalidiid' that exists in Somaliland. Dude, that is such an embarrasing self-own, I'm surprised you'd go for that.



Your lack of knowledge on this topic astounds me. Cigaal was known as being an ardent opponent of the union, I can share many sources confirming this. However, he and the other anti-union assemblyman in the former British Somaliland, were outvoted by those that wanted to unite. The assembly chose him as their leader, so he did his duty and signed the agreement to unite with the south. To frame that as "the man who signed away the State of Somaliland" in this conversation, is unbelievably ignorant and ahistoric.

Yes Cigaal "signed" away the State and was seen as taking it back, why do you think the first questions he recieved from reporters were "You led the unity of the country and are now dividing it" I am not saying whether he joined in 1960 willingly or unwillingly, but Cigaal as a President of a new Somaliland which he never fought to free from Afweyne did have this theme, there were plenty of competent SNM figures who could have been elected instead.

I haven't read this yet as I want to substantiate it's real first. I searched it using different quotes from the this supposed UN security council paper, and all that comes up is disreputable sites like reliefweb and refworld, who claim the UN Security council as sources, but don't provide any links or the name of the UN papaer. The UN Security Council publishes all of its reports. Where is the actual paper, so we know its genuine?

It's in the UN Digital Library, copy any passage into google and you will find it. I've attached it at the bottom. What really differed between Cigaal and Tuur was that Tuur took a bold decision to ally with Aideed, he was part of the G12 who were expecting UNOSOM to leave and declare a government. Cigaal was not fond of Caydiid and could have sided with Ali Mahdi like the other branch of SSDF led by ina Abshir Muuse and SPM Morgan had done so but he knew that wouldn't have made him any different than Tuur. Tuur and Caydiid were negotiating a 60-40 Federal divide between the South and North respectively.

I think if Cigaal was offered the leadership in Muqdisho he wouldn't have rejected this, no other solution for him would have been practical as he couldn't see himself working under a former MP or General that he once ministered in the 60s. The folks in Xamar similarly wouldn't have given up what they gained in blood.

 

[Gadhwayne]

What mistake did Cigaal make in 1960

1960s mistake was not listening to the Bahararsame garaad who said lets negotiate favorable unification with the Italian Trusteeship ofSoomalia

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the anti-unionists were outvoted by the unionists in the Somaliland Assembly

There was no major antiunionism block in 1960. Not until 1991

Cigaal as first Minister, led the delegation that went south to formalize the union.

The union was never formalized since the Italian Trusteeship ofSomaalia never ratified the 1960 Somalilaand act of union

. What really differed between Cigaal and Tuur was that Tuur took a bold decision to ally with Aideed, he was part of the G12 who were expecting UNOSOM to leave and declare a government. Cigaal was not fond of Caydiid and could have sided with Ali Mahdi like the other branch of SSDF led by ina Abshir Muuse had done so but he knew that wouldn't have made him any different than Tuur. Tuur and Caydiid were negotiating a 60-40 Federal divide between the South and North respectively.


I think if Cigaal was offered the leadership in Muqdisho he wouldn't have rejected this, no other solution for him would have been practical as he couldn't see himself working under a former MP or General that he once ministered in the 60s. The folks in Xamar similarly wouldn't have given up what they gained in blood.

JSL was declared after USC civilians betrayed Caydiid and his understanding with SNM and SPM. Cigaal would not have any space for leadership.

Once Cigaal took Somaaliland presidency he missed a golden opportunity to look for Muqdisho allies and just declare that JSL and Muqdisho allies are the successor to Afweyne and pssibly temporarily move the capital until that alliance secures Benaadir

What really differed between Cigaal and Tuur was that Tuur took a bold decision to ally with Aideed, he was part of the G12 who were expecting UNOSOM to leave and declare a government. Cigaal was not fond of Caydiid and could have sided with Ali Mahdi like the other branch of SSDF led by ina Abshir Muuse and SPM Morgan had done so but he knew that wouldn't have made him any different than Tuur. Tuur and Caydiid were negotiating a 60-40 Federal divide between the South and North respectively.
iven up what they gained in blood

Cigaal was the better politician but Tuur was better at strategy, whether to get Muqdisho allies to sign formal sepration papers or reunite under favorable terms

 

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

It's in the UN Digital Library, copy any passage into google and you will find it. I've attached it at the bottom. What really differed between Cigaal and Tuur was that Tuur took a bold decision to ally with Aideed, he was part of the G12 who were expecting UNOSOM to leave and declare a government. Cigaal was not fond of Caydiid and could have sided with Ali Mahdi like the other branch of SSDF led by ina Abshir Muuse and SPM Morgan had done so but he knew that wouldn't have made him any different than Tuur. Tuur and Caydiid were negotiating a 60-40 Federal divide between the South and North respectively.

I read the tiny little portion of the report that deals with Somaliland, which is essentially the few paragraphs you quoted in your initial post. Other then what is directly attributed to David Stephen, everything else is conjecture passed on to the secretary general by actors who have their own agenda's. We don't have a single quote attributed to what Cigaal actually said.
The quote attributed to David Stephen is a perfectly reasonable tactic for Cigaal to have taken, if he did. He was looking for any way that he could get Somaliland a temporary status that quote "
could allow "Somaliland" access to international financial institutions as well
as to other international organizations, such as the International Telecommunication Union". He was essentially looking for ways to get much needed relief and financial assistance to his people, without ever agreeing to officially renounce Somaliland's independence. Seems like a smart move to me.

Again, I come back to this. The people who hold the believe that Cigaal was a unionist at heart can never bring any actual quotes of him saying anything remotely like that, any meetings he attended that indicate that, or even any Somali reconciliations conferences he attended. Nothing of any substance that actually corroborates this wild conspiracy, other than his hearsay and conjecture. Case in point, everything you wrote about the Tuur/Cigaal and Mahdi/Caydiid dynamic. You speculate so much about theories and postulations that have no grounding in any substance. The simple reality is Cabdiraxmaan Tuur behaved like a terrible loser. When he lost the Borama elections, instead of taking his defeat like a man he ran away south as a traitor, in an attempt to destabilize Somaliland. He wasn't the only one, it is the number course of action for anyone that fails in Somaliland politics to this day. That is all there was to it. This is what is rooted in reality and what actually happened. Tuur just before he died, begged for cafis for his treachery, and the merciful Somaliland people forgave him and he is now again seen in a somewhat favourable light in Somaliland.

I think if Cigaal was offered the leadership in Muqdisho he wouldn't have rejected this, no other solution for him would have been practical as he couldn't see himself working under a former MP or General that he once ministered in the 60s. The folks in Xamar similarly wouldn't have given up what they gained in blood.

Again total speculation, postulation and guess work that is not rooted in anything Cigaal said or did.

 

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

1960s mistake was not listening to the Bahararsame garaad who said lets negotiate favorable unification with the Italian Trusteeship ofSoomalia

You act like Cigaal, a 29 yr old at this point, was a dictator who could pull and push Somaliland in any which way he wanted.
There was a vote held. Anti-unionists like Cigaal and the Dhulbahante Grand Garaad were defeated in that vote. As the First Minisiter of Somaliland, he had to fulfil his duty and take a team to Mugdisho to negotiate the union.
Could they have negotiated better with the south? yes. But ultimately, the darkest mistake Somaliland made at that time falls firmly on the shoulders of those that were ardent unionists, which unfortunately included large swathes of both the politicians and the public.