J1 and the Semitic language Tree

[EDsomali]

Kinda cool you can see a relationship between the markers and the language and use this to time admixture.

Would be cool to see a Cushitic version.

Another note, the J1-P56 predates Proto-Semitic by a very long time and the fact that Yemenis ( 1 Somali I've seen also has this) carry this probably means that the population that lived in Yemen before Yemenis also had this haplogroup.

 

[Apollo]

Would be cool to see a Cushitic version.

It won't work as well due to strange founder effects. Just look at the Saho vs Afar Y-frequencies (E-V22/E-V3262 vs E-V6) despite being the same sub-sub-sub linguistic group. An E-M35 analysis for Cushites of that chart would look like an unreadable mess.

PS. I actually think E-M123 is 'the true' Semitic haplogroup, not J1, despite it being less common in Semites.

 

[Asrafael]

Was the Somali J1 P56 guy legit?

It’s possible that multiple J1 lineages were amongst the Proto-Semites than just P58. Chadics have multiple R1b V88 subclades that don’t have a single proto-Chadic/Chadic founder V88 motif. M269 could have expanded with its smaller siblings. The proto-Cushitic could even have multiple T lineages.

On that point, we now 2 T samples which are possibly *ethnic Somali and are not sharing with the Somali T cluster for over 2,000 years - one Y16897 guy (but he’s not Y45591 like all other Somali T-M70) and supposedly now we have a Habr Jeclo guy who is Z709.

Now Abo Ferenji thinks a much larger amount of Somali men are T - and is suspicious that E-V32 is not the majority. Lol.

 

[EDsomali]

Was the Somali J1 P56 guy legit?

It’s possible that multiple J1 lineages were amongst the Proto-Semites than just P58. Chadics have multiple R1b V88 subclades that don’t have a single proto-Chadic/Chadic founder V88 motif. M269 could have expanded with its smaller siblings. The proto-Cushitic could even have multiple T lineages.

On that point, we now 2 T samples which are possibly *ethnic Somali and are not sharing with the Somali T cluster for over 2,000 years - one Y16897 guy (but he’s not Y45591 like all other Somali T-M70) and supposedly now we have a Habr Jeclo guy who is Z709.

Now Abo Ferenji thinks a much larger amount of Somali men are T - and is suspicious that E-V32 is not the majority. Lol.

The problem is the J1-P56 outdates other languages by a significant time period, the split was probably the same time Proto-Afroasiatic was spoken or dialectal forms of the language were just emerging. It seems also to be restricted to Southern Arabian and related peoples like Yemenis and Ethiosemites (The Somali I saw with it was 100% Somali as well).

My guess is migrating South Arabians admixed with a population that was high in this Haplogroup.

This is kinda supported by recent and older studies, one citing higher Neanderthal Admixture in Yemenis vs other Near Easterners and North Africans

https://meeting.physanth.org/progra...anderthal-ancestry-in-yemeni-populations.html

And more recent studies.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/749341v1

 

[Asrafael]

The problem is the J1-P56 outdates other languages by a significant time period, the split was probably the same time Proto-Afroasiatic was spoken or dialectal forms of the language were just emerging. It seems also to be restricted to Southern Arabian and related peoples like Yemenis and Ethiosemites (The Somali I saw with it was 100% Somali as well).

My guess is migrating South Arabians admixed with a population that was high in this Haplogroup.

This is kinda supported by recent and older studies, one citing higher Neanderthal Admixture in Yemenis vs other Near Easterners and North Africans

https://meeting.physanth.org/progra...anderthal-ancestry-in-yemeni-populations.html

And more recent studies.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/749341v1

Abowe, like maan sari kari commentiga.

The J* Soqotri are sus #1. I think you are likely right about P56.

J could have had basal clades spanning Karelia to Soqotra during the mesolithic and late neolithic.

Walaal, what do you think about the recent North Africa paper? They look like they ignored Northeast Africans minus Egyptians (normie hiccups) as completely irrelevant to Maghrebis, and proposed that Ibermaurusians are not ANA + Dzudzuana, but something Dinka or Yoruba like + west eurasian.

All Maghrebis are basically almost half Euro Neolithic + 1/4th ibermaursian + some more ancient East Africa + more basal.

 

[EDsomali]

Abowe, like maan sari kari commentiga.

The J* Soqotri are sus #1. I think you are likely right about P56.

J could have had basal clades spanning Karelia to Soqotra during the mesolithic and late neolithic.

Walaal, what do you think about the recent North Africa paper? They look like they ignored Northeast Africans minus Egyptians (normie hiccups) as completely irrelevant to Maghrebis, and proposed that Ibermaurusians are not ANA + Dzudzuana, but something Dinka or Yoruba like + west eurasian.

All Maghrebis are basically almost half Euro Neolithic + 1/4th ibermaursian + some more ancient East Africa + more basal.

I haven't seen this can you link it?

Are you referring to the paper that says iberomaurasians are a mix of West Eurasian and ANA. The ANA being African ?

 

[Asrafael]

I haven't seen this can you link it?

Are you referring to the paper about the north African paper that says iberomaurasians are a mix of West Eurasian and ANA. The ANA being African ?

It’s linked here

https://m.phys.org/news/2019-11-genetic-imprint-palaeolithic-north-african.html

 

[EDsomali]

It’s linked here

https://m.phys.org/news/2019-11-genetic-imprint-palaeolithic-north-african.html

Woah haven't read this.

Will read it and come back with some analysis.

 

[Asrafael]

Woah haven't read this.

Will read it and come back with some analysis.

Okay

 

[Apollo]

Abowe, like maan sari kari commentiga.

The J* Soqotri are sus #1. I think you are likely right about P56.

J could have had basal clades spanning Karelia to Soqotra during the mesolithic and late neolithic.

Walaal, what do you think about the recent North Africa paper? They look like they ignored Northeast Africans minus Egyptians (normie hiccups) as completely irrelevant to Maghrebis, and proposed that Ibermaurusians are not ANA + Dzudzuana, but something Dinka or Yoruba like + west eurasian.

All Maghrebis are basically almost half Euro Neolithic + 1/4th ibermaursian + some more ancient East Africa + more basal.

J1 is from the Caucasus mountains or the Northern part of the Middle East.

Also, the J* in Soqotra are likely all J1-Y19093

Many many studies have been done on mainland Yemen since that J* claim with more advanced SNP-panels and never has there ever been a true J* in Yemen in recent years. I think that J* detection was wrong.

On that point, we now 2 T samples which are possibly *ethnic Somali and are not sharing with the Somali T cluster for over 2,000 years - one Y16897 guy (but he’s not Y45591 like all other Somali T-M70) and supposedly now we have a Habr Jeclo guy who is Z709.

All SNP-tested Somali T people are T-Y16897 (and in reality likely all T-Y45591). High probability it is the only version of T in Somalis.

 

[EDsomali]

I skim read it and posted it on Anthrogenica.

Will see what others think and have a good read over it when I get home.

 

[Asrafael]

J1 is from the Caucasus mountains or the Northern part of the Middle East.

Also, the J* in Soqotra are likely all J1-Y19093

Many many studies have been done on mainland Yemen since that J* claim with more advanced SNP-panels and never has there ever been a true J* in Yemen in recent years. I think that J* detection was wrong.



All SNP-tested Somali T people are T-Y16897 (and in reality likely all T-Y45591). High probability it is the only version of T in Somalis.

Wow, that’s a table turner. Now J and IJ are centered perfectly in the area of the PC steppes, Mesopotamia, and Iranian plateau. I think C-V20, H-P96, and IJ represent the early west Eurasian ydna + possibly G and LT.

What do you think the early J* population looked like?

I agree Somali T is definitely Y16897 - but some Somali T guys are saying there’s a Habe Jeclo guy whose not even Y16897 but Z709. I don’t know if I could believe it, but it sounds suspicious but could be true. The other maybe non-ethnic Somali Y16987 guy doesn’t belong to Y45591, but to the other major Y16897 clade, and I actually saw their kit (they belong to a major Arab filled Y16897 branch)

If the Habr Jeclo Z709 guy is real its very possible his lineages is exogenous. And if the Z19971 guy is Somali and not Benadiri or something, nothing will really be conclusive unless we find out one way or another that Z19971 is almost certainly exogenous to Cushites.

 

[Apollo]

Wow, that’s a table turner. Now J and IJ are center is perfectly settled in the PC steppes, Mesopotamia, and Iranian plateau. I think C-V20, H-P96, and IJ represent the early west Eurasian ydna + possibly G and LT.

Yep, most likely.

What do you think the early J* population looked like?

Too far back. But probably something proto-Caucasoid looking yet slightly archaic because of time. The Neolithic made humans become more gracilized due lifestyle and food, basically becoming less cave man.

Somali T is definitely Y16897 - but some Somali T guys are saying there’s a Habe Jeclo guy whose not even Y16897 but Z709. I don’t know if I could believe it, but it sounds suspicious but could be true. The other maybe non-ethnic Somali Y16987 guy doesn’t belong to Y45591, but to the other major Y16897 clade, and I actually saw their kit (they belong to a major Arab filled Y16897 branch)

If the Habr Jeclo Z709 guy is real its very possible his lineages is exogenous. And if the Z19971 guy is Somali and not Benadiri or something, nothing will really be conclusive unless we find out one way or another that Z19971 is almost certainly exogenous to Cushites.

I wouldn't expect much Y diversity in 'nomadic' origin Somalis. It looks like T-Y45591 and E-Y18629 together make up like 90% of Somali Y. The rest are some J1s (mainly J-ZS8629) and some E-V16, E-V6, and E-M293.

 

[ZBR]

Interesting topic , bump