Islamic-socialism: Was Barre ignorant or a liar?

Was Barre ignorant or a liar?


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Periplus

Min Al-Nahr ila Al-Ba7r
VIP
Another heated political history debate regarding Siyaad Barre.

During his rise to power in 1969, Barre became known across the world as the leader trying to make Islam and communism compatible. According to many observers, communism and Islam were seen as oil and water, two entities that could not mix. Barre had his work cut out for him in press conferences, in which Arab and Western journalists tried to get Barre to explain how the two ideologies could work. In a quote that was widely reported in the West, Barre stated: "“There is no chapter, not even a single word, in our Koran that opposes scientific socialism. We say, ‘Where is the contradiction? The contradiction was created by man only.’”"

The comedic juxtaposition by the Kacaan was so ridiculous that in 1977, the New York Times dedicated an article called: "Somalia Trys to Live by Both the Koran and ‘Das Kapital’"


Now, in order for clarity, allow me to state: Neither the USSR or Saudi Arabia agreed with Barre's position.

For Saudi Arabia, as an ally of the Western powers, it used its dominance as the home of Islam to rally against communism. It issued fatwas and threw money at the opposition of communism. The Saudi royalty and Islamic leadership made it extremely clear that communism did not align with Islamic interests, placing domestic pressure on USSR friendly muslim-majority countries. This was part of the Nixon doctrine, in which the US funded and provided complete support for Saudi Arabia to clamp down on communism in the region. As the second-oldest Muslim society and strategic location, Somalia was the centre of many of Saudi's efforts.

For the USSR, the situation was simple. They wanted the promotion of communism similar to that of the USSR/Soviet Bloc inside Somalia, which entailed the suppression of religion. Their diplomats in Somalia were frustrated in the religiosity of the Somali people, which was regarded as an affront to communism. Even the Somali students sent to the USSR were known for their disdain of communism lessons and were furious at the restriction of religious freedom.


Now the question that remain is: Did Barre know that Islam and Communism were incompatible or was he ignorant?


I think he knew and I will attach some evidence as to why he may have knowingly promoted communism in Somalia whilst being cognisant of his religion's aversion to it.
 
Another heated political history debate regarding Siyaad Barre.

During his rise to power in 1969, Barre became known across the world as the leader trying to make Islam and communism compatible. According to many observers, communism and Islam were seen as oil and water, two entities that could not mix. Barre had his work cut out for him in press conferences, in which Arab and Western journalists tried to get Barre to explain how the two ideologies could work. In a quote that was widely reported in the West, Barre stated: "“There is no chapter, not even a single word, in our Koran that opposes scientific socialism. We say, ‘Where is the contradiction? The contradiction was created by man only.’”"

The comedic juxtaposition by the Kacaan was so ridiculous that in 1977, the New York Times dedicated an article called: "Somalia Trys to Live by Both the Koran and ‘Das Kapital’"


Now, in order for clarity, allow me to state: Neither the USSR or Saudi Arabia agreed with Barre's position.

For Saudi Arabia, as an ally of the Western powers, it used its dominance as the home of Islam to rally against communism. It issued fatwas and threw money at the opposition of communism. The Saudi royalty and Islamic leadership made it extremely clear that communism did not align with Islamic interests, placing domestic pressure on USSR friendly muslim-majority countries. This was part of the Nixon doctrine, in which the US funded and provided complete support for Saudi Arabia to clamp down on communism in the region. As the second-oldest Muslim society and strategic location, Somalia was the centre of many of Saudi's efforts.

For the USSR, the situation was simple. They wanted the promotion of communism similar to that of the USSR/Soviet Bloc inside Somalia, which entailed the suppression of religion. Their diplomats in Somalia were frustrated in the religiosity of the Somali people, which was regarded as an affront to communism. Even the Somali students sent to the USSR were known for their disdain of communism lessons and were furious at the restriction of religious freedom.


Now the question that remain is: Did Barre know that Islam and Communism were incompatible or was he ignorant?


I think he knew and I will attach some evidence as to why he may have knowingly promoted communism in Somalia whilst being cognisant of his religion's aversion to it.
Could you explain why Barre never exploited any oil reserves during his reign it didn't make any sense to me if he had oil he would be king
 

Periplus

Min Al-Nahr ila Al-Ba7r
VIP
He knew, but he didn't care for any kind of religion as he openly said he would praise Jesus in exchange of weapons.

Communism is nothing compared to what he would do to stay in power.

Exactly.

I think during his early years, he actually liked Marxist-Leninism and wanted to implement it in Somalia similar to the USSR. But I think he started to realise that he appreciated holding onto power more than forcing hantiwadaagnimo down our throats.
 

Periplus

Min Al-Nahr ila Al-Ba7r
VIP
Could you explain why Barre never exploited any oil reserves during his reign it didn't make any sense to me if he had oil he would be king

Good question sxb.

Many people state that Barre wanted the Somali people to own the oil in Somalia and left it as a gift for future generations or knew that it would be mismanaged. That is complete BS.

Barre was exploring for oil since the early 80's at least, signing contracts with Exxon, Chevron, Shell and other major petroleum companies. In 1988, the World Bank gave Somalia $6 million to promote the exploration of oil to contractors.

In 1970, the Kacaan introduced its mining code and its regulations surrounding the exploration and production of petrol. Some companies decided to explore, however, their exploration ceased during the Ogaden War. Then after the war, companies came and left until the World Bank put effort into the project due to the worsening financial situation in Somalia at the time.

Here is the world bank report written pre-1991: https://documents1.worldbank.org/curated/en/496761468102862033/pdf/multi-page.pdf


Also, the Kacaan had a major problem with Foreign Direct Investment. According to the US ambassador during the Kacaan period, many foreign investors were put off investing in Somalia due to the human rights record of Barre and also their horrible treatment of investors.
 
Great thread. Barre was neither a communist nor a Muslim. He needed USSR for weapons as the west flat out wouldn’t give us any because they knew we’d attack Ethiopia Kenya and France in Djibouti. The other more important reason was that the hantiwadaag was clan communism he wanted to strip the rich elite of the clans of their wealth and power. This ultimately lead to the collapse of the state and neither he nor the tribes blinked in their game of chicken in which statehood was gambled.
This happened in England too when the barons and King John came into conflict. It lead to the magna carta which striped power from the king and created the idea of separation of power, parliament and a prime minister. Obviously the King and the Barons didn’t stick to their commitment and they went to war and England was like what Somalia is today.
 
Good question sxb.

Many people state that Barre wanted the Somali people to own the oil in Somalia and left it as a gift for future generations or knew that it would be mismanaged. That is complete BS.

Barre was exploring for oil since the early 80's at least, signing contracts with Exxon, Chevron, Shell and other major petroleum companies. In 1988, the World Bank gave Somalia $6 million to promote the exploration of oil to contractors.

In 1970, the Kacaan introduced its mining code and its regulations surrounding the exploration and production of petrol. Some companies decided to explore, however, their exploration ceased during the Ogaden War. Then after the war, companies came and left until the World Bank put effort into the project due to the worsening financial situation in Somalia at the time.

Here is the world bank report written pre-1991: https://documents1.worldbank.org/curated/en/496761468102862033/pdf/multi-page.pdf


Also, the Kacaan had a major problem with Foreign Direct Investment. According to the US ambassador during the Kacaan period, many foreign investors were put off investing in Somalia due to the human rights record of Barre and also their horrible treatment of investors.
What I dont get is how did this goofball get into power was there no one there to just take him out and why did hear not think through the Ogden war it seems like he rushed ut
 
What I dont get is how did this goofball get into power was there no one there to just take him out and why did hear not think through the Ogden war it seems like he rushed ut
People call him a goofball but it’s cuqdad. He was a young General that dominated all his peers to get to the top. He just didn’t know what to do when he got their and lost everything. He gambled on daroodism and it didn’t work
 

Periplus

Min Al-Nahr ila Al-Ba7r
VIP
What I dont get is how did this goofball get into power was there no one there to just take him out and why did hear not think through the Ogden war it seems like he rushed ut

Sxb, I talk about both these points on another thread, I will link for you.


You will find points on both the Ogaden War and his rise to power there.
 
Sxb, I talk about both these points on another thread, I will link for you.


You will find points on both the Ogaden War and his rise to power there.
What do you think was aidid mistakes and what do you think could have happen if the USC wasn't such screw ups
 
Said Barre wanted power. The cards he was dealt were difficult and he got to where he got to wallahi he’s one of the smartest Somalis in history. Only maybe Mohamed Abdullah Hassan and Godane are in his ball park
 

Periplus

Min Al-Nahr ila Al-Ba7r
VIP
What do you think was aidid mistakes and what do you think could have happen if the USC wasn't such screw ups

I do not want to argue about Aideed because it usually becomes qabayalaad FDK. However, I will say that Aideed was not prepared for the power-vacuum that occurred after toppling Barre.

He cut the head off the snake without a solid plan to stop the bleeding.

One may argue, that Aideed and USC had plans for a government but at the end of the day, they were not able to implement it because of the power vacuum that occurred due to their incompetency.
 

Periplus

Min Al-Nahr ila Al-Ba7r
VIP
Said Barre wanted power. The cards he was dealt were difficult and he got to where he got to wallahi he’s one of the smartest Somalis in history. Only maybe Mohamed Abdullah Hassan and Godane are in his ball park

He was anything but smart sxb.

Read this thread and debate with me about it on there. I do not want to repeat my self on different threads. I am sure you can understand.

 

Periplus

Min Al-Nahr ila Al-Ba7r
VIP
Great thread. Barre was neither a communist nor a Muslim. He needed USSR for weapons as the west flat out wouldn’t give us any because they knew we’d attack Ethiopia Kenya and France in Djibouti. The other more important reason was that the hantiwadaag was clan communism he wanted to strip the rich elite of the clans of their wealth and power. This ultimately lead to the collapse of the state and neither he nor the tribes blinked in their game of chicken in which statehood was gambled.
This happened in England too when the barons and King John came into conflict. It lead to the magna carta which striped power from the king and created the idea of separation of power, parliament and a prime minister. Obviously the King and the Barons didn’t stick to their commitment and they went to war and England was like what Somalia is today.

Sxb, Barre was the USSR's man before he even took power. He trained in the USSR and was opposed to the relations the SYL had with the West, despite the party's non-committal stance.

Hantiwadaag in Somalia was in large part a failure. In three years, Mengistu was further ahead in socialising the economy in Ethiopia than Barre was with a half-decade head start. In Ethiopia, they were able to redistribute land from power brokers and prohibited multiple home ownership, which destroyed the elite. In Somalia, Barre was more focused on ideological communism, in that he developed a cult of personality and was trying to push more social change.
 
He was anything but smart sxb.

Read this thread and debate with me about it on there. I do not want to repeat my self on different threads. I am sure you can understand.

What do you think the next four years are going to be like do you see progress
 

Periplus

Min Al-Nahr ila Al-Ba7r
VIP
What do you think the next four years are going to be like do you see progress

Somalia has everything it needs to become successful and is improving every year. The major disappointment is the lack of quality candidates for the election.

I think the next four years will be the most important in deciding where Somalia's future lays. The next four years could either set Somalia up to catch up with the world or destine us for another generation of fragility.

As much as I like the questions sxb, I would like to discuss this thread topic. I am more than willing to discuss current politics elsewhere but I would like this thread to be about "Islamic-Communism" in Somalia.
 
Somalia has everything it needs to become successful and is improving every year. The major disappointment is the lack of quality candidates for the election.

I think the next four years will be the most important in deciding where Somalia's future lays. The next four years could either set Somalia up to catch up with the world or destine us for another generation of fragility.

As much as I like the questions sxb, I would like to discuss this thread topic. I am more than willing to discuss current politics elsewhere but I would like this thread to be about "Islamic-Communism" in Somalia.
I think the communism was never going to work in somalia I think if siad went a more secular and added capitalism I think the country would have been better off in my opinion
 
I do not want to argue about Aideed because it usually becomes qabayalaad FDK. However, I will say that Aideed was not prepared for the power-vacuum that occurred after toppling Barre.

He cut the head off the snake without a solid plan to stop the bleeding.

One may argue, that Aideed and USC had plans for a government but at the end of the day, they were not able to implement it because of the power vacuum that occurred due to their incompetency.
He had a concrete plan. He was going to eliminate Said Barre and his group and Omar Jess was now going to be the Duke of southern darood under him. SNM where supposed to defeat northern Darood and make a Duke for them which was supposed to be Cali Khalif and then make a deal with him. The Majeerteen didn’t like this and tapped the Abgaal on the Shoulder and said hey didn’t we used to run this shit. They then went to IOG legitimised them in return for influence.

Caydiid was a good guy who was let down. Said Barre was a leader of men, an Alpha. He could be born in the favelas and he would be the boss there. When Somalia gained independence his tribe had 3 seats. Today they have 16 that is because of him. Every marexaan should see him as a hero. Caydiid was so much of a good guy that people thought they could challenge him when he had the momentum to lead the country. That’s why Somaliland went independent. A man that can’t control his tribe should not be sitting at the table to make a deal with another tribe. If Caydiid was ruthless like Siad barre, Cali Mahdi would never have challenged him. When you juxtaposition him against Siad Barre in his tribe his challenger was Abdullahi Yusuf. Siad Barre could control his tribe. Abdullahi Yusuf challenged him he responded by letting all hell loose on his clan. Abdullahi returned the favour by going to Ethiopia to topple him but when he was at the gates of victory he shat himself. He lost the game of chicken. This is because through his oration he made Abdullahi Yusuf the villain for going to Ethiopia. Abdullahi wasn’t able to make Siad Barre the villain for molesting his clan. Abdullahi Yusuf knew this that’s why when he invaded Somalia with Ethiopia even though he militarily humiliated the 21st division and would have been able to take control of Somalia with Ethiopia help, he knew he wouldn’t be safe in Mogadishu and would be killed and would leave a horrible history behind Siad doubled down and said they’ve given goldogob to Ethiopia and rallied the country behind him. At this moment it was a game a chicken between Abdullahi Yusuf and Barre. Yusuf chose to sit in mengistus jail then challenge the dominance of Barre.

Siad Barre knew he had the edge on Abdullahi Yusuf when he was too afraid to attack the capital after the 78 coup attempt and left his soldiers for Kenya. He knew this even earlier because Yusuf was a hater to his 69 coup but didn’t have the balls to do anything about it. Anyways this is what allowed Siad Barre not to get killed after he was toppled. After all this Siad Barre was able to convince the majeerteen to hang up their hat and support him. He slayed their leader, hit the Shepard and the sheep will scatter. This is what made Hawiye fear and respect Siad Barre even in his flight as well as the passiveness of caydiid.
 
Abdullahi Yusuf was haunted by this and always knew he was the submissive and Barre was the dominant. That’s why he tried to get redemption by doing what he was to afraid to do which was being cut throat. He invaded Somalia with Ethiopia and was installed as president. He tried his very best to make Al shabaab the villain. He probably died a depressed man. This is why puntites vilify al Shabaab the most because they know his story and he’s their boy and it hurts them when his legacy is disrespected. They even try to make al Shabaab a lander thing and are usually the most anti isaaq because they thought that isaaq was Barres worst mortal enemy and they’re still chasing his shadow.
 
When you psychoanalyse things the picture becomes clearer. It becomes abundantly clear that the USC attack on Omar Jees was instigated by Majeerteen who where instigated by Barre who wanted to negotiate through the majeerteen who were the only ones who could be sovereign and still negotiate with the USC SNM as nobody was willing to negotiate with him he ran out of cards to use his own face. Barre always respected the majeerteen and wanted to be majeerteen. He views a majeerteen man as a kid from a rich family and rated them above Ogaden who he knew where slaves and have never ruled themselves let alone others. Somalia is the way it is because nobody could pull the strings of the puppet like him.
 

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