Is there a secular basis for morality?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Omar del Sur, Dec 9, 2019.

  1. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    Is there a secular basis for morality?
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  2. Tukraq

    Tukraq VIP

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  3. Luciddreamer

    Luciddreamer Former self hater

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    A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death.

    Guess who said that?
     
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  4. Tukraq

    Tukraq VIP

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    who's to say sympathy is good or bad? that sounds subjective, education and social ties also don't cause one to behave or not behave "ethically" which void of religion isn't defined itself
     
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  5. Luciddreamer

    Luciddreamer Former self hater

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    Dont you think wisdom and empathy is stronger than fear and hope?

    I think people like to be told whats right and wrong so they dont have to deal with the
    burden of responsibility and complex thinking.

    Life is flux and paradoxical and individualism plays a huge role in that.
     
  6. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    I don't intend this to be insulting but this sounds like a Yoda quote.

    However, wisdom and empathy versus fear and hope............

    I think it's quite a puzzle.

    I think wisdom is cool but what even is wisdom from a secular perspective? It hasn't even been defined yet.

    In any case, though, fear is a pretty strong thing.

    I mean if I was the ruler of a nation and I could choose between ruling based on empathy and ruling based on fear..... I think almost anyone including myself would rule based on fear.

    I mean would you give up the palace security and your security forces and hope to stay in power just through appealing to empathy? I think it would be a quick way to end up like Gaddafi.
     
  7. Luciddreamer

    Luciddreamer Former self hater

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    Im not dismissing the usefulness of fear but too only be governed by it is very dysfunctional.
    There are no simple answers on this topic i am afraid.
     
  8. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    Well it was fear versus empathy.

    If you had to choose one or the other, which would you rule based on?

    Presidents and heads of state try to appeal to people in all sorts of ways, whether based on empathy, populism, etc...... but I don't think any of them have any intentions of giving up their security forces.

    "Machiavelli then asks whether being feared or loved is preferable. Ideally, a prince should be both loved and feared, but this state of affairs is difficult to attain. Forced to make a choice, it is much better to be feared than loved."

    https://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/prince/section7/page/2/
     
  9. Luciddreamer

    Luciddreamer Former self hater

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    Wasnt this about morality and religion?

    Why are you thinking about ruling? We live in the 21 century sxb,
    we have laws and governments that keeps people in check.

    You can be truly moral if you understand your own nature and you take responsibility seriously.

    Your not good or bad, you're both. And the same thing with life and reality.
    Its all about being in the middle, so you can see both sides and make the
    best judgement from there, based on your values.

    And in extreme scenarios you have to choose sides but to make that a default causes more harm than good.
     
  10. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    It's not abstract laws and governments that keep the population in check.

    "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." -Mao Zedong

    Mao had a point and so did Machiavelli. It's not "wisdom and empathy" that keeps the people in check. It's armed security forces. It's the carrot and the stick.
     
  11. Luciddreamer

    Luciddreamer Former self hater

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    Again, why are we talking about politics when this thread was about morality?
     
  12. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    I don't know why you're changing the topic. You asked

    and so I'm responding.

    from examining society, we can clearly see

     
  13. Luciddreamer

    Luciddreamer Former self hater

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    How you expect to have a progressive discussion when your mind is already made up?
    And you're obsessing and cherry picking the things im saying,
    what about the rest of the conversation you conveniently left out?
     
  14. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    The conversation is progressing from my end.

    You asked

    Abstract discussion is all well and good but we need to test concepts in real life.

    And when we subject your question to the test of real life situations, it is clear that society is run based on rewards and punishment, not "wisdom and empathy".

    I have cited Mao Zedong, Machiavelli and real life examples of how states are run in real life.

    Where is your counter-argument to defend the thesis that wisdom and empathy is stronger?

    I keep seeing you duck the issue rather than confront the topic. Are you going to duck it or confront it? Do you not have a counter-argument?

    You were the one that brought out your thesis. Can you not defend your thesis?
     
  15. Luciddreamer

    Luciddreamer Former self hater

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    Its not one or the other. Fear, hope, wisdom and empathy all have a important role to play.
    If you stopped looking for simple and shallow answers you would know what im talking about.

    Im not speaking of society, im speaking of the individual.
    Im not speaking of politics but morality.

    Youre are clinically insane man and im not saying that to insult you, its a honest observation.
    Your thinking is very flawed and dysfunctional.
    You see what you want to hear and dismiss everything else.

    This is the last time im taking you seriously, you deserve to be trolled.
     
  16. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    translation: you can't back up what your saying

    It seems that you've never read any of Plato's dialogues and so the idea that the individual and the society can be interrelated is something which is foreign for you.

    You speak of shallowness but anyone who has read Platonic dialogues (or Hegel or Lao Tzu or Robert Filmer's Patriarcha) is familiar with the Platonic notion of things being interconnected. Your inability to grasp that things can have parellels and be interconnected and to grasp the connections between the societal and individual levels is actually what's shallow.

    In any case, for a ruler to stay in power, he needs police and armed security forces before he needs professors. The carrot and the stick is prior to empathy and wisdom in terms of the maintaining the social order. I answered your question, you can't defend your claim and so you resort to ad hominem to mask the weakness of your arguments.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  17. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    Then show where is this secular basis for morality that you claim exists.
     
  18. Luciddreamer

    Luciddreamer Former self hater

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    [​IMG]
     
  19. Luciddreamer

    Luciddreamer Former self hater

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    If i told you you wouldn't listen anyway so stop making demands
    you paranoid nutjob
     
  20. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    So far I've cited Hegel, Lao Tzu, Plato, Robert Filmer, Machiavelli and Mao Zedong. You respond with this.

    The issue is that you're dumb, you more than likely don't read and you're not on my level intellectually.
     
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