Is Morals Real Or Do We Make Them Up?

[DR OSMAN]

The morals are made up by humans, and it is an evolutionary survival tool in the same sentence? Which one is it? Also, "universally wrong" is what is known as objective morality, which is in opposition with subjective morality, i.e. "humans made it up". Again, which is it?

The weird thing is they assume since they do not have these urges or desires, it must be evil and wrong because they think their urges and desires are universal and if your not within that box, your automatically wrong. Once they get morality is subjective to time and differences in societies, they will understand why it was ok to bury children in saudi arabia or to sacrifice witches on a stake or to treat midgans like animals!!! Notice how these are all changing, if it was all universal we wouldnt see any variations for a start, everywhere would look the same in terms of morals.

 

[DR OSMAN]

I'm very logical, I know through thermodynamics alone that all energy has a source of "eternal energy" "independent energy" and without that source nothing would exist. That's a complete scientific truth. If I asked you to describe the purpose of this "eternal energy " you'd be stumped, since it has no beginning nor end. You'd speculate but conclude it's beyond purpose and independent of such a thing

That makes no sense because energy does have a purpose, it's origin may not be known but it has a purpose. We are questioning what is your god purpose not his origin which is what your assertion here is!!! You linked purpose to origin im not sure where u get this idea from!!! I dont care where god came from, I just want to know what his purpose to exist!!! If god has no reason to be alive, just say so because that will lead to why is god telling my reason since he has none himself. An entity with no purpose cannot give purpose to something else!!!

 

[xisaabiye]

That makes no sense because energy does have a purpose, it's origin may not be known but it has a purpose. We are questioning what is your god purpose not his origin which is what your assertion here is!!!

All forms of energy are converted to other forms(thermal, potential, etc) but they all come from ONE initial source which has no beginning nor end, thus independent of all vices including purpose. That's science. Im trying to draw a similitude for you but you didn't get it at all

 

[DR OSMAN]

All forms of energy are converted to other forms(thermal, potential, etc) but they all come from ONE initial source which has no beginning nor end, thus independent of all vices including purpose. That's science. Im trying to draw a similitude for you but you didn't get it at all

Well that is quite obvious cause there was no matter so what could create it? But as u explained it, that is a purpose of energy you just said it has a function a purpose and a reason, but does god? a similar answer to that analogy is god purpose is to create since that's what energy is doing!!! if energy didnt transform it would lack a purpose or function and would essentially be nothing!!! Hence if god purpose is to create if there was no creation he would lack no purpose which is not what islam teaches!!!

 

[Poets]

The weird thing is they assume since they do not have these urges or desires, it must be evil and wrong because they think their urges and desires are universal and if your not within that box, your automatically wrong. Once they get morality is subjective to time and differences in societies, they will understand why it was ok to bury children in saudi arabia or to sacrifice witches on a stake or to treat midgans like animals!!! Notice how these are all changing, if it was all universal we wouldnt see any variations for a start, everywhere would look the same in terms of morals.

Since you believe in moral subjectivity: is the murderers belief that murder is morally correct as true as your belief of the opposite? How could two views that are opposites both be true at the same time?

 

[Etacovda S'lived]

Who said there wasn't always monotheism?

C'mon sxb. This is embarrassing.

 

[DR OSMAN]

Since you believe in moral subjectivity: is the murderers belief that murder is morally correct as true as your belief that it is not? How could opposites both be true at the same time?

That is exactly what I believe, I simply dont think there is right and wrong, it is dependent on the person, time period, society and other external variables!!! Is anyone right or wrong, I don't think so!!! My wrong today to you maybe the next generation right and vice versa!!! hence why morals are subjective

 

[Poets]

That is exactly what I believe, I simply dont think there is right and wrong, it is dependent on the person, time period, society and other external variables!!! Is anyone right or wrong, I don't think so!!!

You do not see the implications of that, do you? What you are saying is essentially that you would not consider it wrong if your loved ones were killed, Ilaahay ma qaddaree?

 

[DR OSMAN]

You do not see the implications of that, do you? What you are saying is essentially that you would not consider it wrong if your loved ones were killed, Ilaahay ma qaddaree?

To suggest allah is effected by our right and wrong would mean he is dependent to our actions!!! I simply dont think that would be the case, your are trying to personalize god to in order to streghten your views and opinions!!!

 

[DR OSMAN]

You do not see the implications of that, do you? What you are saying is essentially that you would not consider it wrong if your loved ones were killed, Ilaahay ma qaddaree?

I am not saying if you were family were killed its right or wrong, thats all im saying. It's subjective to a number of variables, infact you have no problem killing a non muslim see cause the external variables change such as (he is outside of your religious views) hence its now acceptable to you. See how morals are linked to external matters like society, religion, time period, etc!!! If you take all that away, what are u left with!!! nothing more then urges and desires which after a period of time u will regulate as morality to everyone else!!!

 

[Poets]

I am not saying if you were family were killed its right or wrong, thats all im saying. It's subjective to a number of variables, infact you have no problem killing a non muslim see cause the external variables change such as (he is outside of your religious views) hence its now acceptable to you. See how morals are linked to external matters like society, religion, time period, etc!!! If you take all that away, what are u left with!!! nothing more then urges and desires which after a period of time u will regulate as morality to everyone else!!!

Do not avoid the question, would yo blame that murderer, yes or no? I´ll continue the discussion when you give me a clear cut answer.

 

[xisaabiye]

Well that is quite obvious cause there was no matter so what could create it? But as u explained it, that is a purpose of energy you just said it has a function a purpose and a reason, but does god? a similar answer to that analogy is god purpose is to create since that's what energy is doing!!! if energy didnt transform it would lack a purpose or function and would essentially be nothing!!! Hence if god purpose is to create if there was no creation he would lack no purpose which is not what islam teaches!!!

So what was energy doing when it wasn't transferring to other forms of energy ie prior to creation kkkkkk,your conclusion is infinite regression. That God has to be constantly creating or else he ceases to be have purpose, thus doesn't exist. It's interesting that we're debating this,and many before you came to the same conclusion through the exact same line of thinking and I read about it and seen how it was completely dismantled by Ulama of the past.

I wish my PM wasn't blocked, I'd have some stuff to send you. I'm on my phone now maybe I'll post some pdf today or tomorrow if your interested. I haven't read them in like 5 years so I'd like to sift through first.

 

[xisaabiye]

C'mon sxb. This is embarrassing.

How? Ascertain your point of view

 

[DR OSMAN]

So what was energy doing when it wasn't transferring to other forms of energy ie prior to creation kkkkkk,your conclusion is infinite regression. That God has to be constantly creating or else he ceases to be have purpose, thus doesn't exist. It's interesting that we're debating this,and many before you came to the same conclusion through the exact same line of thinking and I read about it and seen how it was completely dismantled by Ulama of the past.

I wish my PM wasn't blocked, I'd have some stuff to send you. I'm on my phone now maybe I'll post some pdf today or tomorrow if your interested. I haven't read them in like 5 years so I'd like to sift through first.

There really isn't any genuine discourse happening in islam today, I mean our method is to simply assess someone character as 'good' and whatever he says after that is correct. That sort of assessment is what killed islam and why we have such confusion. Just because someone is of good character doesn't mean they are knowledgable in what their speaking of and may have biases and agendas. What needs to be taken as priority is the what that person is saying how much it makes sense. Similar to the Mutazilites, assess the person not on his character but what he is saying and choose and select the best answers using reason and human intellect!!!

 

[DR OSMAN]

How? Ascertain your point of view

I mean can u wonder why ex muslims and possibly lots of muslims are disillusioned with the current islam, the ideas they come up with is going against our human intellect because they are selecting their ideas based on the character of a person(isnad) or how close in time they were to the propet(salafiyah) and not using 'intellect' as the best answer which can come from any generation. If they used intellect as their source of ideas and going through islamic archives reviewing what is closest to our intellect, it would spawn a continuous progression where islam would sit well with the people because the best idea is always going to be the one which resonates with human reasoning and intellect!!!

 

[xisaabiye]

Do not avoid the question, would yo blame that murderer, yes or no? I´ll continue the discussion when you give me a clear cut answer.

It's a question that can't be answered for obvious reasons, mainly because it debunks his premise

 

[xisaabiye]

I mean can u wonder why ex muslims and possibly lots of muslims are disillusioned with the current islam, the ideas they come up with is going against our human intellect because they are selecting their ideas based on the character of a person(isnad) or how close in time they were to the propet(salafiyah) and not using 'intellect' as the best answer which can come from any generation. If they used intellect as their source of ideas and going through islamic archives reviewing what is closest to our intellect, it would spawn a continuous progression where islam would sit well with the people because the best idea is always going to be the one which resonates with human reasoning and intellect!!!

Ilaahay says many times in the Quran "afalaa yatafakaruun" "afala yatadabarun", Do you not reflect, do you not ponder. Everything in Islam stimulates logical critical thinking. The truth is, many if not most people don't need to dig deep to have certain belief, some just look at the creation the sky's the stars, the animals, within themselves.. and that is sufficient enough to give them certainty. Others, possibly you, need a philosophical discourse to reach complete unshakable certainty. This is why Ulama have covered all these topics. The exact same thing you were debating with me was debated in the past and debunked completely, namely having a purpose. Muslims don't use the tools they have to sincerely search for the truth. I'm a very big fan of philosophy that's why I used to read deep into these topics, it gave me complete certainty, a strong foundation of knowledge, along with defense against any criticism towards Islam or islamic theology, jurisprudence, scripture etc. Unfortunately I'm not the best in practicing what I know . I was looking for a certain book called sanusi creed, with commentary by Dr. Said Foudah. Btw he's one of the scholars that goes extremely deep into these topics, unfortunately he doesn't speak english, These types of discourses still exist, but a lot of places they came out of are burning to the ground(yemen, syria, egypt...) Somalis used to have scholars with deep knowledge in ilmul kalaam(philosophy), now they mostly been mentally raped by Saudi propagation

 

[DR OSMAN]

Ilaahay says many times in the Quran "afalaa yatafakaruun" "afala yatadabarun", Do you not reflect, do you not ponder. Everything in Islam stimulates logical critical thinking. The truth is, many if not most people don't need to dig deep to have certain belief, some just look at the creation the sky's the stars, the animals, within themselves.. and that is sufficient enough to give them certainty. Others, possibly you, need a philosophical discourse to reach complete unshakable certainty. This is why Ulama have covered all these topics. The exact same thing you were debating with me was debated in the past and debunked completely, namely having a purpose. Muslims don't use the tools they have to sincerely search for the truth. I'm a very big fan of philosophy that's why I used to read deep into these topics, it gave me complete certainty, a strong foundation of knowledge, along with defense against any criticism towards Islam or islamic theology, jurisprudence, scripture etc. Unfortunately I'm not the best in practicing what I know . I was looking for a certain book called sanusi creed, with commentary by Dr. Said Foudah. Btw he's one of the scholars that goes extremely deep into these topics, unfortunately he doesn't speak english, These types of discourses still exist, but a lot of places they came out of are burning to the ground(yemen, syria, egypt...) Somalis used to have scholars with deep knowledge in ilmul kalaam(philosophy), now they mostly been mentally raped by Saudi propagation

No don't get me wrong, My faith is based on personal experience that I experienced. I don't need facts or proof, I experienced something in my personal life which has shown me that even if you proved god you would debunk the need to believe. Do we need to believe the sun shines light? do we need to believe the moon rises at night? proof automatically wipes out the need to believe and hence religion is pointless, it becomes a fact now. How can someone be tested if they already know the answer.

This isn't about me per-se but not everyone is satisfied with that and people want confidence in a god, I was there at my stage of life where it was important that god is rationalized to me and I am certain a-lot are at that stage also. Even though I am not there, doesn't negate the fact that others are. The Islamic approach today is nonsense, if I didn't come to my own reasoning, I wouldn't be following the garbage they spew. In-fact I hardly even listen to them myself now unless it's someone who is engaging the mind. I am still not even a typical muslim, I don't think you need to pray 5 times or fast or do any of those rituals, there is nothing that you can buy god with even with a mountain of good deeds!!! And I believe strongly life is about the individual, it's you who falls and gets up and falls again like a baby walking, it's not god.

We need to focus islam towards the individual, we are the one experiencing this, rather then focusing it towards god who isn't experiencing this. Imagine a student sitting a test and them just throwing away the test and focusing all their energies on the teacher. It's pointless, the teacher isn't on trial here, you are.

I believe in an Islamic personal orientation similar to the Sufis because they do engage the mind. I love meditating, I can even feel my body rising while at the same time mentally engaging people with philosophical ideas which Sufis do. Now I know that's not every1 cup of tea and hence why islam needs to personally orientate itself to each individual rather then just saying everyone pray 5 times a day and fast and group everyone into 1 bag. Everyone has a different experience. Some that will work with who like that, but it shouldn't be the sole rule but one of many ways to reach god!!!

Its like a baby some need assistance and tools while others dont, to apply one rule on how babies walk, we may never of walked to begin with!!! religion is no different to me, there should be various groups and various ways to god in islam rather then all fighting for which is the way, we need to accept there is multiple paths to the infinite, an infinite cant have one road.

 

[DR OSMAN]

Ilaahay says many times in the Quran "afalaa yatafakaruun" "afala yatadabarun", Do you not reflect, do you not ponder. Everything in Islam stimulates logical critical thinking. The truth is, many if not most people don't need to dig deep to have certain belief, some just look at the creation the sky's the stars, the animals, within themselves.. and that is sufficient enough to give them certainty. Others, possibly you, need a philosophical discourse to reach complete unshakable certainty. This is why Ulama have covered all these topics. The exact same thing you were debating with me was debated in the past and debunked completely, namely having a purpose. Muslims don't use the tools they have to sincerely search for the truth. I'm a very big fan of philosophy that's why I used to read deep into these topics, it gave me complete certainty, a strong foundation of knowledge, along with defense against any criticism towards Islam or islamic theology, jurisprudence, scripture etc. Unfortunately I'm not the best in practicing what I know . I was looking for a certain book called sanusi creed, with commentary by Dr. Said Foudah. Btw he's one of the scholars that goes extremely deep into these topics, unfortunately he doesn't speak english, These types of discourses still exist, but a lot of places they came out of are burning to the ground(yemen, syria, egypt...) Somalis used to have scholars with deep knowledge in ilmul kalaam(philosophy), now they mostly been mentally raped by Saudi propagation

I don't know where u went xisaabiye, but I am waiting for those documents and I would like to read it!!!

 

[Naissur]

I'm very logical, I know through thermodynamics alone that all energy has a source of "eternal energy" "independent energy" and without that source nothing would exist. That's a complete scientific truth. If I asked you to describe the purpose of this "eternal energy " you'd be stumped, since it has no beginning nor end. You'd speculate but conclude it's beyond purpose and independent of such a thing

Very weird wording if you're talking about conservation of energy, perhaps so that it serves the purpose of your argument.