Investigating a genocide in Somaliland

[Wir]

What published reports?

Were cadaan present in the region?
These were baseless reports collected by Isaaq propagandists.
We know what happened in the ground.
The war didnt take place in London or Newyork.

Isaaq propagandists? This is why you should read what I posted before responding. The UN, international aid agencies and other organizations, or as you would put it, "cadaans", were forced to evacuate Somaliland because of what they called a near genocide. This was years before the war by the Government and Clan loyalists against the Isaaq ended and that's the level of destruction the UN aid agencies and international organizations witnessed

 

[Wir]

ikr, what happened was tragic and I hope it doesn't happen again but 200K is a heavy stretch.

especially in the 80's that would be a huge % of isaaqs dead and would cause eventual extinction.

Published reports give these figures. Its not hard to beleive when you understand the level of destruction and the fact that it was aimed at 1 tribe for over 10-12 years. The second and third largest inhabited somali cities, which are 99% Isaaq, were completely destroyed. 70% of Burco and 90%of Hargeisa.

Published reports referred to it as the Dresden of Africa because of the sheer destruction and aerial bombardment (Dresden was a city in Germany that was flattened by aerial bombardment and shelling in the world war)

 

[Karim]

@Manafesto you're posting fake stats deceiving unsuspecting members. The combined populations of Burco and Hargeisa were 250k in 1988.

Are you saying 85% of the two cities population were killed?!! Why are you posting such nonsensical bs?!!

 

[Caaro]

Published reports give these figures. Its not hard to beleive when you understand the level of destruction and the fact that it was aimed at 1 tribe for over 10-12 years. The second and third largest inhabited somali cities, which are 99% Isaaq, were completely destroyed. 70% of Burco and 90%of Hargeisa.
View attachment 162859

Published reports referred to it as the Dresden of Africa because of the sheer destruction and aerial bombardment (Dresden was a city in Germany that was flattened by aerial bombardment and shelling in the world war)
View attachment 162862

so 200,000 deaths and 500,000 emigration. That adds up to 700K. Math isn't adding up.

 

[Wir]

Only on a somalian forum can people use their 68iq opinion to debate and deny published mass transmitted reports of genocide. 68iq at best

 

[Caaro]

Only on a somalian forum can people use their 68iq opinion to debate and deny published mass transmitted reports of genocide. 68iq at best

this joke is only funny when used correctly because denying genocides isn’t only a “somalian forum” thing.

there is a whole wikipedia page on it in fact.

Genocide denial - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

either get a new joke or just say your point without a failed attempt at humour.

 

[Caaro]

Only on a somalian forum can people use their 68iq opinion to debate and deny published mass transmitted reports of genocide. 68iq at best

in fact, I suggest you read the wikipedia page. It has some interesting stuff on there that would help you see better as to why someone would deny a genocide (at least a denial from your perspective).

Calling something a fact and using that as your main argument will just cause the argument to go in complete circles.

especially since you don’t even attempt to use any other form of logic besides “published ((facts))”

“According to Taner Akçam, "the practice of “denialism” in regard to mass atrocities is usually thought of as a simple denial of the facts, but this is not true. Rather, it is in that nebulous territory between facts and truth where such denialism germinates.”

 

[Wir]

this joke is only funny when used correctly because denying genocides isn’t only a “somalian forum” thing.

there is a whole wikipedia page on it in fact.

Genocide denial - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

either get a new joke or just say your point without a failed attempt at humour.

in fact, I suggest you read the wikipedia page. It has some interesting stuff on there that would help you see better as to why someone would deny a genocide (at least a denial from your perspective).

Calling something a fact and using that as your main argument will just cause the argument to go in complete circles.

especially since you don’t even attempt to use any other form of logic besides “published ((facts))”

“According to Taner Akçam, "the practice of “denialism” in regard to mass atrocities is usually thought of as a simple denial of the facts, but this is not true. Rather, it is in that nebulous territory between facts and truth where such denialism germinates.”

 

[Sheikh Kulkuli]

Isaaq propagandists? This is why you should read what I posted before responding. The UN, international aid agencies and other organizations, or as you would put it, "cadaans", were forced to evacuate Somaliland because of what they called a near genocide. This was years before the war by the Government and Clan loyalists against the Isaaq ended and that's the level of destruction the UN aid agencies and international organizations witnessed

View attachment 162856

Those mass graves are mostly ogaden refugees killed by SNM.

So try not to use them because Isaaq civilians fled to Ethiopia to seek shelter.

There were hardly mass graves.This doesnt mean MSB didnt commit attrocities in SL.

 

[TabK]

@Manafesto you're posting fake stats deceiving unsuspecting members. The combined populations of Burco and Hargeisa were 250k in 1988.

Are you saying 85% of the two cities population were killed?!! Why are you posting such nonsensical bs?!!

In 1980, the population of WG was was 654,990, the largest region in the entire Somali Republic, constituting 13% of the population. For comparison, Nugaal (Nugaal + Sool) made up 2.2% and a population of 97,184, whilst Bari was 4.4% and 194,368. The entire region known as Puntland today made up around 5% of the population, and ironically had less than the fake 250k population figure you made up for Hargeisa and Burco.

Hargeisa's population alone was 350,000 at the time:

The 200,000 is an underestimate. Ignoring those who were killed in government bombings or Somali army shelling, plenty of elders, women and children died on the long march to the Ethiopian borders. Plenty more died in camps.

To put the figure in perspective, the genocide caused the fastest and largest forced movement of people recorded in African history.

Even by the Somali government's own estimates, 26,000 buildings were either razed completely or heavily damaged:

When you bomb and destroy 26,000 buildings (the government's own conservative figure downplaying the damage), 200,000 deaths look like a huge underestimate.

 

[TabK]

Those mass graves are mostly ogaden refugees killed by SNM.

So try not to use them because Isaaq civilians fled to Ethiopia to seek shelter.

There were hardly mass graves.This doesnt mean MSB didnt commit attrocities in SL.

@Wir has provided multiple sources supporting his statement. It is well known that Ogadeni refugees were armed by Afweyne and took part in the killings. This is one of the reasons the UN stopped providing them with aid.

You keep repeating lies without any sources. This is not a good look.

 

[Karim]

In 1980, the population of WG was was 654,990, the largest region in the entire Somali Republic, constituting 13% of the population. For comparison, Nugaal (Nugaal + Sool) made up 2.2% and a population of 97,184, whilst Bari was 4.4% and 194,368. The entire region known as Puntland today made up around 5% of the population, and ironically had less than the fake 250k population figure you made up for Hargeisa and Burco.

View attachment 162873

Hargeisa's population alone was 350,000 at the time:

View attachment 162876
View attachment 162877

The 200,000 is an underestimate. Ignoring those who were killed in government bombings or Somali army shelling, plenty of elders, women and children died on the long march to the Ethiopian borders. Plenty more died in camps.

To put the figure in perspective, the genocide caused the fastest and largest forced movement of people recorded in African history.

Even by the Somali government's own estimates, 26,000 buildings were either razed completely or heavily damaged:

View attachment 162879

When you bomb and destroy 26,000 buildings (the government's own conservative figure downplaying the damage), 200,000 deaths look like a huge underestimate.

the single most destructive bombing raid in human history happened to Tokyo, Japan in 1945 (Not the Nukes).

It flattened 45km² leaving 100k killed and over 1 Million homeless.

Please understand my point here, Tokyo had 4 Million residents in 1945 but lost 100k civlians to those devastating raids perpetrated by the Americans. How can small cities of Burco and Hargeisa with combined populations of 250k suffer 200k deaths by aerial bombardments?!! Ask yourself that question. It's IMPOSSIBLE.

You keep saying that WG had 654k population in 1988 which is utterly laughable considering the 2005 UNDP population report estimated W/Galbeed to have 700k. And Hargeisa at 500k.

The disputed figure among historians was 50k claimed by most of your intellectuals.. but when you quadruple the disputed figure and out of blue claim 200k deaths, the whole thing becomes a joke.

 

[TabK]

the single most destructive bombing raid in human history happened to Tokyo, Japan in 1945 (Not the Nukes).

It flattened 45km² leaving 100k killed and over 1 Million homeless.

Please understand my point here, Tokyo had 4 Million residents in 1945 but lost 100k civlians to those devastating raids perpetrated by the Americans. How can small cities of Burco and Hargeisa with combined populations of 250k suffer 200k deaths by aerial bombardments?!! Ask yourself that question. It's IMPOSSIBLE.

Whataboutery.

You can not apply estimates based on another conflict that took place on another continent, using different means of destruction, against an entirely different backdrop.. this is the single most retarded comment I've read on Somalispot.

Using your logic, universal figures for all genocides should be revised, just because in the estimation of a random shitposter on Somalispot, Tokyo's fire raids only killed 100,000 civilians.

You keep saying that WG had 654k population in 1988 which is utterly laughable considering the 2005 UNDP population report estimated W/Galbeed to have 700k. And Hargeisa at 500k.

The disputed figure among historians was 50k claimed by most of your intellectuals.. but when you quadruple the disputed figure and out of blue claim 200k deaths, the whole thing becomes a joke.

View attachment 162881

Stop bringing up fake figures you've fed UN agencies, we are talking about official population data produced under the Somali Republic. It clearly shows your region to be the least populated area of the country.

I think it deserves a separate thread.

 

[Karim]

Whataboutery.

You can not apply estimates based on another conflict that took place on another continent, using different means of destruction, against an entirely different backdrop.. this is the single most retarded comment I've read on Somalispot.

Using your logic, universal figures for all genocides should be revised, just because in the estimation of a random shitposter on Somalispot, Tokyo's fire raids only killed 100,000 civilians.



Stop bringing up fake figures you've fed UN agencies, we are talking about official population data produced under the Somali Republic. It clearly shows your region to be the least populated area of the country.

I think it deserves a separate thread.

You seem to be getting tense and defensive. It suits you considering the amount of lies and unproven conspiracy theories you've been spewing regarding this topic.

The truth hurts buddy and your little fairytales and conspiracy theories defy basic logic. The source of destruction of Hargeisa and Burao was aerial bombardments and it's fair to compare it to the famous air raids in history. Your Jeegan buddy @Wir claimed that Hargeisa became the "Dresden of Africa" implying that the level of destruction of both cities were comparable. The United States Air forces dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city in two consecutive days killing about 25k civilians.

In Tokyo, the City had 4 Million residents and endured the single most destructive bombing raid in human history and yet only 100k civilians died due to this raid.

Are you saying couple of Somali Jet fighter planes caused more destruction and more deaths than those two world renowned air raids?!!

You're DUMB!.

 

[Sheikh Kulkuli]

@Wir has provided multiple sources supporting his statement. It is well known that Ogadeni refugees were armed by Afweyne and took part in the killings. This is one of the reasons the UN stopped providing them with aid.

You keep repeating lies without any sources. This is not a good look.

Once again I tell you the refugees were not armed ,entire refugee camps were wiped out clean bu SNM terrorists then today its ironic that SL is using their bones.

 

[TabK]

You seem to be getting tense and defensive. It suits you considering the amount of lies and unproven conspiracy theories you've been spewing regarding this topic.

The truth hurts buddy and your little fairytales and conspiracy theories defy basic logic. The source of destruction of Hargeisa and Burao was aerial bombardments and it's fair to compare it to the famous air raids in history. Your Jeegan buddy @Wir claimed that Hargeisa became the "Dresden of Africa" implying that the level of destruction of both cities were comparable. The United States Air forces dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city in two consecutive days killing about 25k civilians.

In Tokyo, the City had 4 Million residents and endured the single most destructive bombing raid in human history and yet only 100k civilians died due to this raid.

Are you saying couple of Somali Jet fighter planes caused more destruction and more deaths than those two world renowned air raids?!!

You're DUMB!.

All I am doing is schooling you on the retarded analogy you attempted to use.

You claimed Hargeisa + Burco had a population of 250k, a claimed you pulled out of your ass.

Turned out to be a complete fabrication, and Hargeisa alone had a population of 350,000.

The rest of your laughable comment is not worth responding to.

 

[TabK]

Once again I tell you the refugees were not armed ,entire refugee camps were wiped out clean bu SNM terrorists then today its ironic that SL is using their bones.

The refugees were armed by Barre, did you not read the source provided by Wir above?

The refugees provided 50,000 conscripts to Afweyne's campaign.

If you dont have the mental capacity to provide sources supporting your wild claims, there is no point of you joining this discussion.

 

[Sheikh Kulkuli]

The refugees were armed by Barre, did you not read the source provided by Wir above?

View attachment 162885

The refugees provided 50,000 conscripts to Afweyne's campaign.

If you dont have the mental capacity to provide sources supporting your wild claims, there is no point of you joining this discussion.

Read that statement are "thought" to be carrying weapons.
Is not the same as are carrying weapons.

It is "beleived" that upto 50K.

This means they were allegations that were never proven.
Just supustitions by the locals.
The SNA has superior weapons and outnumbered the SNM.
Secondly the majority population of Isaaq had fled to Ethiopia and were in refugee camps in awbarre region.

 

[Jungle]

lol

 

[Murax]

We need to stayaway from these types of threads because they serve no purpose. Case in point the the discussion after this post took a million different turns, that diverge from the original post. The OP had sinister, Shaydaan intentions though which is his MO. Reminds me of the saying of Cali RA when speaking of the Khawaarij ‘كلمة الحق يريد بهـا باطل'

True words, with the intention of evil. Not co-signing the silly premise that 200,000 Isaaq died, but you get my point.