Indoyars are slowly dying out due to a birth rate crisis - do we have a similar problem?

[Wervelwind]

These indoyars in South Korea are having 0.5-0.7 kids per woman when a healthy number is around 2 . China and Japan aren't far off either. Wallahi they're in a crisis

I'm talking about the western diaspora. Are we still getting married and having kids at a good rate? I don't really see my peers (around 30 years old) marrying like the generation before. The women are working and (understandably) don't want to do everything for a man like our parents did

 

[balanbalis]

My married cousins have 3+ kids so probably not, islam prioritises having a lot of children so that's probably why

 

[Daisybilaawe]

If Somalis get that act together this may be the perfect opportunity to become the next big thing.

We have exceptional birth rates.

White Europeans and Indoyars are suffering from population problems, the West is on borrowed time.

Somalis however…. have a distinct advantage over all of Africa and even as far as the world.

That advantage is that we are one single ethnicity and speak one sole dominant language as well as being the largest single ethnic group to encompass the largest landmass in the continent, all we need is the rest of Sonaliweyn and remove the barrier of qabilism and we are absolutely good.

We already excel at Business, with dominating various sectors Kenya, South Africa and as far as Gambia, if we get rid of arbitrary problems like qabil and instead we replace it with Somali Uniformity and very heavily subscribe to that then the skies the limit and perhaps with time we could have our chance on the throne, the way Europeans have for the past 600 years or the Chinese did at one point.

We have the ingredients to dominate but we just need to navigate it and do well with the god blessed conditions we have.

I don’t support nor condemn what Jews have done collectively but I can respect their Uniformity and us being more homogenous than they are should produce far more uniformity than them.

Not to mention Somaliweyn eclipsing all of Western Europe in size, Somalis really are blessed but need to navigate through the storm.

 

[dcstardude]

Somalia has like the second highest fertility rate in the world lol. We absolutely don't have this problem whatsoever

 

[wonyluvr]

No

 

[zesocialanimal]

The countries that are truly fucked are the countries that are no where near being as developed as the west, but have a low birth rate.

Turkey, Ukraine, Latin American countries, etc. These places are done for.

The thing about Somalia is while we’re underdeveloped, we also have an insanely high birth rate. If we use this to our advantage we can probably develop from being a complete shithole to being a semi decent country to live in

 

[Espaa_]

The countries that are truly fucked are the countries that are no where near being as developed as the west, but have a low birth rate.

Turkey, Ukraine, Latin American countries, etc. These places are done for.

The thing about Somalia is while we’re underdeveloped, we also have an insanely high birth rate. If we use this to our advantage we can probably develop from being a complete shithole to being a semi decent country to live in

You can see its actually lowkey working. Thats if, if you compare the country in 2010-2015 to now 2025

 

[Shayla]

The biggest problem in Africa is underpopulation and sparse settlements.

Europeans were able to easily overpower Africa in the 1800s because of our low population and their high population, plus their technological advantages.

Africans need more people and they need to urbanisation. I'm glad Somalis have decent cities but we need more cities, and we need to abandon nomadic lifestyle.

 

[Idilinaa]

The biggest problem in Africa is underpopulation and sparse settlements.

Most African countries suffer from over-population and overcrowded settlements. It's the opposite.

Europeans were able to easily overpower Africa in the 1800s because of our low population and their high population, plus their technological advantages.

Europeans didn't over power Africa with population numbers. Their strength came from industrial-era military advantages (guns, steamships, telegraphs), political manipulation, and co-opting local factions.

Their population numbers in Africa were tiny in comparison. But they at times made up for it by recruiting native populations from elsewhere as collaborators. The divide-and-conquer strategies played a critical role and also economic coercion.

Africans need more people and they need to urbanisation. I'm glad Somalis have decent cities but we need more cities, and we need to abandon nomadic lifestyle.

Africa does need better urban planning and infrastructure, but not necessarily “more people.” The real issue is productive employment, education, and basic services for the existing population.

Urbanization is already happening , often in chaotic, unsustainable ways due to lack of regulation and investment. You can look at the vast slums that form Cairo, Addis and Lagos.

Africans also need better rural development, food security and supporting traditional economies.

Large parts of Somalia is going to be controlled settled grazing ranges so we don't and should not abandon pastoralism or livestock herding.

It's complete waste to not take advantage the vast pastures that can sustain a large livestock population. It's vital multi-billion dollar sector that supports livelihood even for the ones in the cities and generates a lot money.

 

[Shayla]

Most African countries suffer from over-population and overcrowded settlements. It's the opposite.



Europeans didn't over power Africa with population numbers. Their strength came from industrial-era military advantages (guns, steamships, telegraphs), political manipulation, and co-opting local factions.

Their population numbers in Africa were tiny in comparison. But they at times made up for it by recruiting native populations from elsewhere as collaborators. The divide-and-conquer strategies played a critical role and also economic coercion.



Africa does need better urban planning and infrastructure, but not necessarily “more people.” The real issue is productive employment, education, and basic services for the existing population.

Urbanization is already happening , often in chaotic, unsustainable ways due to lack of regulation and investment. You can look at the vast slums that form Cairo, Addis and Lagos.

Africans also need better rural development, food security and supporting traditional economies.

Large parts of Somalia is going to be grazing ranges so we don't and should not abandon pastoralism or livestock herding.

It's complete waste to not take advantage the vast pastures that can sustain a large livestock population. It's vital multi-billion dollar sector that supports livelihood even for the ones in the cities and generates a lot money.

Africa is definitely underpopulated compared to people per square mile.
I already said Europeans overpowered Africans because of their technological advances. But it wasn't just that...it was their sheer population numbers. You can have all the technological advancement that you want, without the population numbers to back it up, you won't be able to colonise and conquer anything.

The urbanisation and large population number in Europe in the 1800s is what gave them the cooperation that led to the technology in the first place.

Africa will never create new technology with random villages and settlement miles and miles apart. We need people to come together.

Somalia must abandon nomadic lifestyle, the nomadic lifestyle is bad for the environment, it leads to deforestation and it leads to conflict over resource. Instead they every farmer should be given their own piece of land.

 

[AbrahamFreedom]

In the west, yes. I notice second generation Somalis likely have lower birth rates than white people in their generation. The fobs are the ones increasing the Somali birth rates.

 

[Unicorn]

Not really. However a lot of kids dont mean good kids. Quality over quantity is something somalis dont really believe in lol

 

[Idilinaa]

Africa is definitely underpopulated compared to people per square mile.

While Africa may appear “underpopulated” based on average population density, that metric alone doesn’t tell the full story. Many African cities and regions already face the challenges of rapid population growth overcrowded housing, traffic congestion, and strained infrastructure. The real issue isn't raw population numbers but whether there's sufficient governance, planning, and infrastructure to support the people already living there.

I already said Europeans overpowered Africans because of their technological advances. But it wasn't just that...it was their sheer population numbers. You can have all the technological advancement that you want, without the population numbers to back it up, you won't be able to colonise and conquer anything.

European population numbers played almost no direct role in the actual conquest of Africa. Colonization wasn’t about sending large armies or settlers , European presence on the ground was minimal.

What allowed them to dominate was their technological edge (especially firearms and transport), political manipulation, and the use of divide-and-rule tactics. Often, they relied on local collaborators and proxy forces to achieve control.

The urbanisation and large population number in Europe in the 1800s is what gave them the cooperation that led to the technology in the first place.

It’s more accurate to say that industrialization enabled urbanization not the other way around. Industrial productivity in rural and urban areas allowed for population growth, not merely urban concentration.

You also need a healthy rural economy to support urban centers food, raw materials, and trade routes flow from rural to urban. A balance between rural productivity and urban growth is what sustains long-term development.

Africa will never create new technology with random villages and settlement miles and miles apart. We need people to come together.

Concentration alone doesn’t lead to innovation. Connectivity does. Somalia, for example, has developed a decentralized but interconnected model where towns, cities, and rural producers are linked through trade, communication, and migration. This spreads opportunity across the country rather than concentrating pressure in a few overcrowded cities, as we see in places like Lagos or Cairo. That’s actually a more sustainable model of development.

Somalia must abandon nomadic lifestyle, the nomadic lifestyle is bad for the environment, it leads to deforestation and it leads to conflict over resource. Instead they should be give every farmer their own piece of land.

To be fair, Somalis don’t actually have what you’d call a “nomadic lifestyle” , they have a fluid pastoral-agro-trade-urban lifestyle.

Pastoralism is good for the environment if it’s controlled and managed properly. The same goes for farming. If mismanaged, farming can actually damage the soil and exhaust land.

But if it’s done well, it can grow healthy plant life, help recover degraded areas, and feed livestock.
Most land in any given place is not arable but is suitable for grazing livestock

To tired to write corrections(had a long day) but yeah i have gone over this before in another thread: So you can read through this

There is no nomad life, but pastoralism however (Livestock herding) will be the most relevant thing going forward as a lot are doing increasingly now already by building controlled ranges to graze their livestock and the livestock will be processed into both food and industrial products.

It's not going to be any different from the ''Ranches'' you see across Europe, Canada and America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranch

Believe it or not most land anywhere is not arable land, its actually marginal land that is suitible for grazing animal. You can read more about the difference if you follow this link

Cattle and Land Use: The Differences between Arable Land and Marginal Land and How Cattle Use Each

Simply put, land use refers to how we use the land. It represents the economic and cultural activities such as agricultural, residential, industrial, mining and recreational use with respect to human activity and is an important consideration when discussing the sustainability of the foods we eat.

clear.ucdavis.edu

Cattle production cycle

Livestock will be far more sustainable food source and income than agriculture, it will give a lot more steady source of food supply in forms of meat , butter, cheese and milk. In fact farming will be secondary to this.

And you can make many different industrial products from it as well.

Herding aka ranching will be the majority, while agriculture will play a smaller role but a very significant one. Regenerative grazing and rotational grazing techniques will increase productivity and sustainability.

Even in the USA, a major agricultural powerhouse, most land is used for grazing rather than growing crops. 66% of U.S. agricultural land is used for grazing livestock, while only 25% of U.S. farmland is used for growing crops because crops require fertile, arable land with irrigation.

Like in America, Somalia’s natural landscape is ideal for this kind of livestock-based economy. Most land is not arable, but it is suitable for grazing.

Livestock is an Economic Engine Beyond Just Food. Animal products are not only food sources but also industrial resources (leather, textiles, plastics, medicines, biodiesel, nitrogen, hides, wool, fertilizers, etc.), making it a multi-purpose economic activity unlike farming, which primarily focuses on food alone.

For example the U.S. meat industry alone is worth over $200 billion annually (beef, poultry, pork). The dairy industry generates $50 billion+ per year in milk, cheese, and butter.

If you add the industrial component of this Leather, gelatin, animal fats, and pharmaceuticals (e.g., insulin from pigs) add even more economic value. Probably triple this

Whilst the corn industry alone is worth over $80 billion, primarily due to ethanol fuel production and animal feed. Whilst Soybeans generate about $60 billion annually, used in oil, animal feed, and processed foods.

Somalia’s Future is in a Hybrid System. Rather than abandoning pastoralism, Somalia is moving toward controlled grazing systems and ranching , a shift that increases productivity while preserving the traditional strength of livestock-based economies.

it’s about combining modern ranching systems with strategic farming, ensuring food security, economic stability, and sustainable land use.

 

[Idilinaa]

In the west, yes. I notice second generation Somalis likely have lower birth rates than white people in their generation. The fobs are the ones increasing the Somali birth rates.

The 2nd generation Muslim immigrants have the same birth rate as the general population based on studies.

But yeah birth rates often have to do with economics.

 

[Espaa_]

Africa is definitely underpopulated compared to people per square mile.
I already said Europeans overpowered Africans because of their technological advances. But it wasn't just that...it was their sheer population numbers. You can have all the technological advancement that you want, without the population numbers to back it up, you won't be able to colonise and conquer anything.

The urbanisation and large population number in Europe in the 1800s is what gave them the cooperation that led to the technology in the first place.

Africa will never create new technology with random villages and settlement miles and miles apart. We need people to come together.

Somalia must abandon nomadic lifestyle, the nomadic lifestyle is bad for the environment, it leads to deforestation and it leads to conflict over resource. Instead they every farmer should be given their own piece of land.

This is so real. Idk why the major clans historically shat on the clans that prefer agriculture. Just look at the ras kambooni/Kenyan border. There is no way to explain naturally why one line dictates greenery and desert.

this has nothing to do with agriculture. This is all to do with the presence of human activity. Ras kambooni all the way to kismaayo and beyond should be looking like the rest of the swahili coast. This is just irresponsible and people need to go jail for this.

 

[Idilinaa]

This is so real. Idk why the major clans historically shat on the clans that prefer agriculture. Just look at the ras kambooni/Kenyan border. There is no way to explain naturally why one line dictates greenery and desert.

this isnt anything to do with agriculture but the presence of human activity. This is just irresponsible

View attachment 360934

I have explained before in a separate thread that these types of satellite maps are a very misleading.

Those types of satellite maps actually misrepresents large parts of Somalia and can be misleading as it does not differentiate between vegetation types, density, or seasonal variations. They are even worse then those maps who claim it's desert or slap this semi-arid nonsense on it.

Large parts of the country is indeed covered by green vegetation counted that it's not damaged by overgrazing bad land management which shows in some areas.

This map reflects a more accurate and better representative reality.

Only 12% of the land is truly barren(Bare areas), while the majority is covered by natural vegetation (grassland, woodlands, forests, farmland) 87.7%

Also lot of damage can also come from intense agricultural and farming activity. The major clans actually farmed. No one got shat on for farming. Pastoralism was just viewed as more sustainable.

There a reason why Somalis have wide dispersal and live spread out, this is to avoid resource depletion in a single area from intensive human activity.

So you consequently have the same clans settled into arable and non-arable lands.

Thats not true , Biyomaal lived across a strip of land that extended from the fertile river bank to the semi-arid coastal dunes. It was separated into arable portions of lands and non arable portions of lands , so not all of them were farmers.
View attachment 357027

It was similar for Hawiye clans as well, but they had a larger piece of the arable lands extending into both middle and upper shabelle river banks and whilst other hawiye sub clans extended to central grazing plains to the semi-arid coastal dunes.

I go through the entire thing here as well.

This can be seen in historical documentation and in their tradition for several centuries

"Hawiye of the central region have had a long history of agricultural practices. Oral traditions of those clans show that their settlement and subsequent farming practices have been going on for several centuries""
View attachment 356966

Some references to other Hawiye clans besides Abgal Wadaan or Hinitire. This is from the mid-1800s.
View attachment 356968

Bimaal communities also farmed for generations after moving into the area before the 19th century and long before they even imported slaves.

''The arable portion of the land was held by the lineage until individuals under took to clear and plant it. Individual occupation of farms became common, the Bimaal say six to eight generations ago"
View attachment 356965


Any clan that moved in or was settled in fertile patches of land engaged in farming and the same goes Darood who settled in Wamo/Juba areas in the 19th century, they immediately picked up farming because the land was arable.

The Raxanweyn engaged in pastoralism and combined it with farming for many centuries as well like Hawiye but they are in reality just a confederation of the same Somali clans they neighbor. Not distinct from them. Just so you know.

And Raxanweyn and Tunni were the largest slave owners and plantation owners, it wasn't just Hawiye or Bimaal or Darood or Reer Xamar.

Whether clans engaged in farming or not depended on the land they inhabited, Raxanweyn was mostly just concentrated betweeen the two rivers so most of the land was arable and there was enough water, whereas other clans like Hawiye & Bimaal for example was scatterred into both across the arable shabelle river zones and outside of it in the central & lower coastal plains that wasn't arable and was more suitble for grazing primarily livestock. You can see it described in the text above about Bimaal distribution that makes distinction between arable and non-arable portion of land.

This dispersal was intentional as to not create resource depletion in a single area, so they lived in both the arable areas and the non-arable areas.

Then you also had the Harar Uplands that was irrigated by the tributaries of upper shabelle river and the higher elevation made it better watered, so the Darood Kombe clans like Geri, Abaskul, Usbahyan and Bartiree were largely just sedentary agro-pastoralists/farmers settled into villages for many generations and centuries prior because most of the land was arable and they did not use Bantus or slaves.

As Richard Burton noted when he visited the area:

View attachment 356970
View attachment 356972

The last part of what i said is important to point out because in North West(Awdal-Waqooyi-Galbeed) and the Harar Uplands there is no Bantu's and neither do they use slaves for large scale cash crop plantation either and frankly it was the same in the South Central of Somalia prior to the 19th century.

Before the 19th century there is zero documentation of slave plantations in Southern Somalia and yet you had farming communities throughout the medieval period.

 

[Espaa_]

I have explained before in a separate thread that these types of satellite maps are a very misleading.






Also lot of damage can also come from intense agricultural and farming activity. The major clans actually farmed. No one got shat on for farming. Pastoralism was just viewed as more sustainable.

There a reason why Somalis have wide dispersal and live spread out, this is to avoid resource depletion in a single area from intensive human activity.

So you consequently have the same clans settled into arable and non-arable lands.




I go through the entire thing here as well.

I read it however you cannot intrinsically say that it is misleading. There is forest cover loss in Jubbaland. There are whole scientific articles on this.
https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=85956

Regarding clans yes you are right clans didnt just use pastoralism as a tool. Agropastoralism was mostly what Somalis did. I was wrong on that. Thank you for sharing this with me.

this image completely coincides with google earths satellite images. There is significant forest loss in Jubbaland and desertification is sped up. Its worse now in 2025 than it was before. This article also differentiates between different types of areas and their classes. Shrubland has increased

 

[Idilinaa]

I read it however you cannot intrinsically say that it is misleading. There is forest cover loss in Jubbaland. There are whole scientific articles on this.
https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=85956

Regarding clans yes you are right clans didnt just use pastoralism as a tool. Agropastoralism was mostly what Somalis did. I was wrong on that. Thank you for sharing this with me.

View attachment 360938

this image completely coincides with google earths satellite images. There is significant forest loss in Jubbaland and desertification is sped up. Its worse now in 2025 than it was before.

I am not denying that degradation and deforestation is happening. You are very correct. You should have used the one you shown me now.

Most of the deforestation in Jubbaland come from charcoal harvesting.

There is an account on Tiktok that does advocacy on protecting Somalia's forests and parklands in lower Juba area, that i hit up before about a few questions. It's an environmental conservation expert that runs the account and tries to bring interest and attention.

You should check it out and spread it.

 

[NidarNidar]

The countries that are truly fucked are the countries that are no where near being as developed as the west, but have a low birth rate.

Turkey, Ukraine, Latin American countries, etc. These places are done for.

The thing about Somalia is while we’re underdeveloped, we also have an insanely high birth rate. If we use this to our advantage we can probably develop from being a complete shithole to being a semi decent country to live in

Dropping child mortality rates as well.

 

[Idilinaa]

Not to derail the thread with agricultural talk and getting back to the topic

I have spoken about the brith rate in Korea it is similar to the wider West as it is due to economic circumstances.

I think its more driven by the costs of raising a child is not affordable so people opt to not have one.




Seems like he is right

Private education spending in South Korea hits all-time high despite falling number of students - The Korea Times

Koreans' total spending on private education hit an all-time high in 2024, as parents spared no expenses for their children to survive in the pervasive competition that shows no signs of letting up de...

www.koreatimes.co.kr

High work hours, career insecurity, expensive housing, and lack of social benefits are also major contributors.

But the conversation on social media is hijacked by social rejects and right wing nutjobs that fixate on identity politics which they use to distract them it with stuff about incels, gender war, feminism, immigrants away from the real reasons which has to do with economics and capitalism. Thats the real reasonn why the birth rates are falling.

People can barely afford their own lives, let alone kids. People want to have kids but feel they can't .

There is a solution to this which is to break with full time capitalism and make the wealth more distributive. Higher wages & better work-life balance. Government supported childcare & housing policies. Encouraging more work flexibility & parental leave etc.