How trustable are Fatwas? And how many are based on Politics instead of Islam?

[AdoonkaAlle]

I actually implore you to not talk without knowledge and research into the deen. your comment shows me you have little understanding of the religion and hasty to make a judgement on something you have little knowledge of. there is a reason ma'siyah leads to shirk, because every sin is a strand of shirk, that eventually leads to minor or major shirk, because ma'siyah is a person essentially worshipping his nafs, but due to the fact he doesn't commit major or minor shirk which are the major types, he will either be punished due to this sin or excused for it.

But if you do not know that sinning is a form of worship of other than Allah then you need to study the deen, this form of worship is not definite since it is not the major type therefore not treated the same, but when a person does an action of kufr he has worshipping his nafs to the level of doing the sin

this is a fact amongst scholars, please study the deen

sxb that's an absurd position to hold, if sin in and of itself is a form of worship to other than Allah then that implies that there's no one person who can claim to be a muslim. Basically every muslim is a mushrik as there's no muslim who's sinless.

Which scholars are you referring to sxb ? I believe that you're conflating issues here sxb. If you're guilty of worshipping others besides Allah just by sinning how is this not major shirk ?

 

[cooli3o]

sxb that's an absurd position to hold, if sin in and of itself is a form of worship to other than Allah then that implies that there's no one person who can claim to be a muslim. Basically every muslim is a mushrik as there's no muslim who's sinless.

Actually, this is what you need to understand, shirk, in the sense of the word, is referring to the definite term where a person acknowledges something to be there God, in a situation, where someone, does not do anything that constitutes as kufr, it will not be counted as shirk, because despite his slip up, he still acknowledges that Allah is his only lord, despite disobeying him.

You see, doing any act of worship, for other than Allah, can be counted as minor shirk, or insincerity, disobeying Allah, is the opposite of worshipping Allah, noone can say they are sinning and worshipping Allah, rather they are giving into their nafs and in a sense worshipping it at that very moment, but we do not classify this person as worshipping their nafs in this moment, as in Islam to be a Abd of something is referring to something who has commit shirk, therefore we would say this is disobedience, but the reality of the action, is the worship of the nafs.

A person who commits zina knowing it is wrong, noone cans say this person is worshipping Allah, he is not doing this act for Allah, instead it is the complete opposite, the question in this scenerio, is what is he worshipping, during this time, and that would usually be his nafs, but since it isn't major shirk, he hasn't said zina is fine, he still remains as a Muslim due to the mercy from Allah, but what he is doing in that moment is worshipping his nafs, but he is not fully doing it, so it doesn't take him out the fold of Islam. This is why sins get punished, because they are of a nature of following a God other than Allah, and disconnecting a person from Allah, but because we are all weak to our soul, it doesn't count as shirk, because that would be too difficult on us, but, whenever we sin and disobey Allah, we are following our nafs.


The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "When an adulterer commits illegal sexual intercourse, then he is not a believer at the time, he is doing it, and when a drinker of an alcoholic liquor drinks it, then he is not a believer at the time of drinking it, and when a thief steals, then he is not a believer at the time of stealing, and when a robber robs, and the people look at him, then he is not a believer at the time of doing robbery. : Sahih al-Bukhari 2475
You see here, they are still believers in sense of being Muslims, but during the act of following their nafs, they are not counted as Muslims fully, rather their iman is very weak, due to them following shaytaan or their nafs as their God in that moment, but since they do not ackowledge and say it is their God, they haven't completely entered the realm of kufr, the realm of iman and belief in Allah is in levels, to sin as a Muslim doesn't completely make you leave the realm of Islam as you still acknoeldge la ilaha illallah, but your iman is weak, what does that mean? it means your belief in la ilaaha illallah is weak, meaning you slip up alot and follow/worship your nafs.
-Now to make it clear I am not using worship or ibadaah in the sense of the Islam definite meaning of the word, as that would constitute as shirk, but the ibadaah can be insincere or for something other than Allah, therefore it we can not say it is ibadaah to the nafs, but a portion of ibadaah, meaning they are almost worshipping it.

which is why we have people with weak iman, they do not have full 100% actualisation of la ilaha illallah, it may be said in their hearts and tongues but they do not fully believe and enact it in real life, but, Allah has made it easy for us to go jannah, despite disobeying him and effectively going against his commands and following something other than him, as long as you believe in la ilaaha illalllah you are a Muslim


So to be clear, in the definite sense of the word, we are not worshipping our nafs, but in the actual reality of what we are doing, we are worshipping our nafs everytime we sin, but it hasn't reached to a degree where it will be classified as full ibadaah therefore we remain as Muslims, but because it is a level of worship, it will be chastised, either by punishment in this life or the next, and lowering of levels in the akhirah

ask yourself, everytime you disobey Allah, who are you doing the action for? you will realise then that you are not actualising la ilaaha illallah, and not doing it soleley for the sake of Allah, and therefore their is an inner God inside of you that you are worshipping and doing things for, but as long as you do not worship it to a certain point you do not exceed the boundary of for it to be called major shirk.

the scholars I have heard saying this in lectures, and read it in books but I can't find them right now. but if u look on this Islamqa website(only thing i can find on a quick google search) you can see their is a differentiation between shirk and sins, in the definite sense, but the salaf and people of knowledge used to see sin as something that leads to shirk, or minor shirk,

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/126005/is-there-a-connection-between-sin-and-shirk

 

[cooli3o]

sxb that's an absurd position to hold, if sin in and of itself is a form of worship to other than Allah then that implies that there's no one person who can claim to be a muslim. Basically every muslim is a mushrik as there's no muslim who's sinless.

Which scholars are you referring to sxb ? I believe that you're conflating issues here sxb. If you're guilty of worshipping others besides Allah just by sinning how is this not major shirk ?

Now that you understand what I wrote below hopefully, we can move onto hamzas inconsistencies

When a non-Muslim, atheist, says, I do not believe in Allah, or anything beyond this world, I do not worship a God, whenever a person claims to not worship any God, they are actually lying, as it is impossible to not worship anything, any action we do or have done ultimately is for the sake of something or someone we believe can guide us to what is good for us, benefit us, or prevent us from harm, and has full ability to do it.
This is why all atheists are mushriks, they worship their nafs, or they claim nature or the universe is there rabb, but say we do not believe in God

Allah mentions the people in the Quran, the adahriyoon, who claim to not believe in anything, yet they actually in fact worship their nafs


45:23
أَفَرَءَيْتَ مَنِ ٱتَّخَذَ إِلَـٰهَهُۥ هَوَىٰهُ وَأَضَلَّهُ ٱللَّهُ عَلَىٰ عِلْمٍۢ وَخَتَمَ عَلَىٰ سَمْعِهِۦ وَقَلْبِهِۦ وَجَعَلَ عَلَىٰ بَصَرِهِۦ غِشَـٰوَةًۭ فَمَن يَهْدِيهِ مِنۢ بَعْدِ ٱللَّهِ ۚ أَفَلَا تَذَكَّرُونَ ٢٣
Have you seen ˹O Prophet˺ those who have taken their own desires as their god? ˹And so˺ Allah left them to stray knowingly, sealed their hearing and hearts, and placed a cover on their sight. Who then can guide them after Allah? Will you ˹all˺ not then be mindful?
— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran
45:24
وَقَالُوا۟ مَا هِىَ إِلَّا حَيَاتُنَا ٱلدُّنْيَا نَمُوتُ وَنَحْيَا وَمَا يُهْلِكُنَآ إِلَّا ٱلدَّهْرُ ۚ وَمَا لَهُم بِذَٰلِكَ مِنْ عِلْمٍ ۖ إِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا يَظُنُّونَ ٢٤
And they argue, “There is nothing beyond our worldly life. We die; others are born. And nothing destroys us but ˹the passage of˺ time.” Yet they have no knowledge ˹in support˺ of this ˹claim˺. They only speculate.
— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

maariful Quraan says this
مَنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَـٰهَهُ هَوَاهُ ("Have you seen him who has taken his desires as his god...45:23) In other words, he who has made his selfish desires his object of worship. Obviously, no unbeliever claims that his desires are his object of worship. Keeping this in view, this verse of the Qur'an indicates that ` worship' actually means ` obedience'. Thus anyone who undertakes to obey someone against the obedience of Allah makes him the object of his worship instead of Allah. There are people who ignore what Allah has declared lawful and unlawful or what He has permitted and what has forbidden. People who do not care what Allah has forbidden and follow their whims and fancies, their desires are their god, in this sense, although they may not have uttered it by word of mouth. The same theme has been versified by an ` Arif:

سودہ گشت از سجدہ راہ بُتَاں پیشانیم چند برخود تھمت دین مسلمانی نھم

"My forehead has swollen by prostrating before the statues of beauty, although I claim to profess the religion of Islam."

In this couplet, the poet has portrayed selfish desires as statues. He who takes his desires as his leader and follows them is as good as their worshipper, that is why they have been described as their deities. Sayyidna Abu ` Umamah narrates that the Messenger of Allah ﷺ said: "Of all the deities worshipped under the firmament of the earth, the most detestable one in the sight of Allah is hawa, that is, selfish desires. Sayyidna Shaddad Ibn ` Aws ؓ narrates that the Messenger of Allah ﷺٍ said: "A wise person is he who keeps his desires under control and works for life after death; and sinful is he who runs after his desires and yet expects the best in the Hereafter." Sayyidna Sahl Ibn ` Abdullah Tustari ؓ said: "Your ailment is your selfish desires. And if you oppose them, it will turn into your cure." (All these narratives have been adapted from Qurtubi).

Tafseer tabari
أفرأيت من اتخذ دينه بهواه, فلا يهوى شيئا إلا ركبه, لأنه لا يؤمن بالله, ولا يحرِّم ما حَرَّمَ, ولا يحلل ما حَللَ, إنما دينه ما هويته نفسه يعمل به.

This man believes in Allah, but he follows a deen of his nafs, on the outside he may be Muslim but in reality he has done kufr and worshipped his nafs, like the people who do bid'ah to the point of leaving the deen, making sects from Islam that are not valid, believing in Prophets after rasuulullah صلي الله عليه وسل,
their deen is their hawaa
although they claim to only believe in Allah, and they do, but they do not only worship Allah, therefore they are actually mushriks

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Actually, this is what you need to understand, shirk, in the sense of the word, is referring to the definite term where a person acknowledges something to be there God, in a situation, where someone, does not do anything that constitutes as kufr, it will not be counted as shirk, because despite his slip up, he still acknowledges that Allah is his only lord, despite disobeying him.

You see, doing any act of worship, for other than Allah, can be counted as minor shirk, or insincerity, disobeying Allah, is the opposite of worshipping Allah, noone can say they are sinning and worshipping Allah, rather they are giving into their nafs and in a sense worshipping it at that very moment, but we do not classify this person as worshipping their nafs in this moment, as in Islam to be a Abd of something is referring to something who has commit shirk, therefore we would say this is disobedience, but the reality of the action, is the worship of the nafs.

A person who commits zina knowing it is wrong, noone cans say this person is worshipping Allah, he is not doing this act for Allah, instead it is the complete opposite, the question in this scenerio, is what is he worshipping, during this time, and that would usually be his nafs, but since it isn't major shirk, he hasn't said zina is fine, he still remains as a Muslim due to the mercy from Allah, but what he is doing in that moment is worshipping his nafs, but he is not fully doing it, so it doesn't take him out the fold of Islam. This is why sins get punished, because they are of a nature of following a God other than Allah, and disconnecting a person from Allah, but because we are all weak to our soul, it doesn't count as shirk, because that would be too difficult on us, but, whenever we sin and disobey Allah, we are following our nafs.


The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "When an adulterer commits illegal sexual intercourse, then he is not a believer at the time, he is doing it, and when a drinker of an alcoholic liquor drinks it, then he is not a believer at the time of drinking it, and when a thief steals, then he is not a believer at the time of stealing, and when a robber robs, and the people look at him, then he is not a believer at the time of doing robbery. : Sahih al-Bukhari 2475
You see here, they are still believers in sense of being Muslims, but during the act of following their nafs, they are not counted as Muslims fully, rather their iman is very weak, due to them following shaytaan or their nafs as their God in that moment, but since they do not ackowledge and say it is their God, they haven't completely entered the realm of kufr, the realm of iman and belief in Allah is in levels, to sin as a Muslim doesn't completely make you leave the realm of Islam as you still acknoeldge la ilaha illallah, but your iman is weak, what does that mean? it means your belief in la ilaaha illallah is weak, meaning you slip up alot and follow/worship your nafs.
-Now to make it clear I am not using worship or ibadaah in the sense of the Islam definite meaning of the word, as that would constitute as shirk, but the ibadaah can be insincere or for something other than Allah, therefore it we can not say it is ibadaah to the nafs, but a portion of ibadaah, meaning they are almost worshipping it.

which is why we have people with weak iman, they do not have full 100% actualisation of la ilaha illallah, it may be said in their hearts and tongues but they do not fully believe and enact it in real life, but, Allah has made it easy for us to go jannah, despite disobeying him and effectively going against his commands and following something other than him, as long as you believe in la ilaaha illalllah you are a Muslim


So to be clear, in the definite sense of the word, we are not worshipping our nafs, but in the actual reality of what we are doing, we are worshipping our nafs everytime we sin, but it hasn't reached to a degree where it will be classified as full ibadaah therefore we remain as Muslims, but because it is a level of worship, it will be chastised, either by punishment in this life or the next, and lowering of levels in the akhirah

ask yourself, everytime you disobey Allah, who are you doing the action for? you will realise then that you are not actualising la ilaaha illallah, and not doing it soleley for the sake of Allah, and therefore their is an inner God inside of you that you are worshipping and doing things for, but as long as you do not worship it to a certain point you do not exceed the boundary of for it to be called major shirk.

the scholars I have heard saying this in lectures, and read it in books but I can't find them right now. but if u look on this Islamqa website(only thing i can find on a quick google search) you can see their is a differentiation between shirk and sins, in the definite sense, but the salaf and people of knowledge used to see sin as something that leads to shirk, or minor shirk,

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/126005/is-there-a-connection-between-sin-and-shirk

sxb you've misunderstood this issue altogether & conflating a number of things. I believe this is due to you subscribing to the salafi dawah & giving your own understanding of it.

What you said above is full of contradictions: on one had you claim that sinning is a form of worshipping other than Allah yet at the same time back track on it and state you're not referring to the islamic meaning of worship.

When a person worships others besides Allah, this is major shirk there's no other meaning to it sxb. No scholar has ever stated that worshipping other than Allah isn't major shirk or that it means something else etc.

There's a difference between following your desires and worshipping them, in the case of a muslim following his/her own desires doesn't lead to worshipping them unless there's a belief attached to it. When people elevate their desires to Allah's rank such that it becomes the ultimate judge of what is haram and halal for them then this when they take their desires as their Ilah and are considered worshipping their nafs . Merely following desires or even being overwhelmed by them doesn't constitute worship sxb.


Regarding the hadith you posted, it is referring to the 3 levels of faith/islam
1. islam
2. iman
3. ihsan

ihsan is the highest level of faith and when a person reaches this level he/she is called a muhsin, similarly a mumin is when a person has attained the level of iman and lastly a muslim is one who submits and follows islam but has shortcomings in his level of practising the deen ie commits major sins etc

So in the hadith when the Prophet (peace be upon him) refers to them as not being believers, it means that they have dropped in rank with regards to their level of islam( ie went from level 2 to level 1), and not that they've apostatised from the deen.

حَدَّثَنِي يَحْيَى بْنُ بُكَيْرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا اللَّيْثُ، عَنْ عُقَيْلٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، عَنْ أَبِي بَكْرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لاَ يَزْنِي الزَّانِي حِينَ يَزْنِي وَهْوَ مُؤْمِنٌ، وَلاَ يَشْرَبُ الْخَمْرَ حِينَ يَشْرَبُ وَهْوَ مُؤْمِنٌ، وَلاَ يَسْرِقُ حِينَ يَسْرِقُ وَهْوَ مُؤْمِنٌ، وَلاَ يَنْتَهِبُ نُهْبَةً يَرْفَعُ النَّاسُ إِلَيْهِ فِيهَا أَبْصَارَهُمْ وَهْوَ مُؤْمِنٌ ‏"‏‏.‏ وَعَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ الْمُسَيَّبِ، وَأَبِي، سَلَمَةَ عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِمِثْلِهِ، إِلاَّ النُّهْبَةَ

​

In the hadith the word used is mumin and not muslim indicating that it's referring to the levels of faith.


Mere disobedience towards Allah doesn't mean that you're associating others with Allah or that you believe you're somehow a god etc. Laakin when the disobedience is accompanied by the belief that whatever one is doing is right and what Allah commanded is wrong then it becomes an entirely different matter.

A person's emaan goes up and down, there's no single person who's emaan is 100% all the time. Muslims committ major sins are still muslims unless there's evidence contrary to this and as such they're considered to be worshippers of Allah. The only time they stop being one is when they either commit shirk & kufr that removes from the fold of islam.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Now that you understand what I wrote below hopefully, we can move onto hamzas inconsistencies

When a non-Muslim, atheist, says, I do not believe in Allah, or anything beyond this world, I do not worship a God, whenever a person claims to not worship any God, they are actually lying, as it is impossible to not worship anything, any action we do or have done ultimately is for the sake of something or someone we believe can guide us to what is good for us, benefit us, or prevent us from harm, and has full ability to do it.
This is why all atheists are mushriks, they worship their nafs, or they claim nature or the universe is there rabb, but say we do not believe in God

Allah mentions the people in the Quran, the adahriyoon, who claim to not believe in anything, yet they actually in fact worship their nafs


45:23
أَفَرَءَيْتَ مَنِ ٱتَّخَذَ إِلَـٰهَهُۥ هَوَىٰهُ وَأَضَلَّهُ ٱللَّهُ عَلَىٰ عِلْمٍۢ وَخَتَمَ عَلَىٰ سَمْعِهِۦ وَقَلْبِهِۦ وَجَعَلَ عَلَىٰ بَصَرِهِۦ غِشَـٰوَةًۭ فَمَن يَهْدِيهِ مِنۢ بَعْدِ ٱللَّهِ ۚ أَفَلَا تَذَكَّرُونَ ٢٣
Have you seen ˹O Prophet˺ those who have taken their own desires as their god? ˹And so˺ Allah left them to stray knowingly, sealed their hearing and hearts, and placed a cover on their sight. Who then can guide them after Allah? Will you ˹all˺ not then be mindful?
— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran
45:24
وَقَالُوا۟ مَا هِىَ إِلَّا حَيَاتُنَا ٱلدُّنْيَا نَمُوتُ وَنَحْيَا وَمَا يُهْلِكُنَآ إِلَّا ٱلدَّهْرُ ۚ وَمَا لَهُم بِذَٰلِكَ مِنْ عِلْمٍ ۖ إِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا يَظُنُّونَ ٢٤
And they argue, “There is nothing beyond our worldly life. We die; others are born. And nothing destroys us but ˹the passage of˺ time.” Yet they have no knowledge ˹in support˺ of this ˹claim˺. They only speculate.
— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

maariful Quraan says this
مَنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَـٰهَهُ هَوَاهُ ("Have you seen him who has taken his desires as his god...45:23) In other words, he who has made his selfish desires his object of worship. Obviously, no unbeliever claims that his desires are his object of worship. Keeping this in view, this verse of the Qur'an indicates that ` worship' actually means ` obedience'. Thus anyone who undertakes to obey someone against the obedience of Allah makes him the object of his worship instead of Allah. There are people who ignore what Allah has declared lawful and unlawful or what He has permitted and what has forbidden. People who do not care what Allah has forbidden and follow their whims and fancies, their desires are their god, in this sense, although they may not have uttered it by word of mouth. The same theme has been versified by an ` Arif:

سودہ گشت از سجدہ راہ بُتَاں پیشانیم چند برخود تھمت دین مسلمانی نھم

"My forehead has swollen by prostrating before the statues of beauty, although I claim to profess the religion of Islam."

In this couplet, the poet has portrayed selfish desires as statues. He who takes his desires as his leader and follows them is as good as their worshipper, that is why they have been described as their deities. Sayyidna Abu ` Umamah narrates that the Messenger of Allah ﷺ said: "Of all the deities worshipped under the firmament of the earth, the most detestable one in the sight of Allah is hawa, that is, selfish desires. Sayyidna Shaddad Ibn ` Aws ؓ narrates that the Messenger of Allah ﷺٍ said: "A wise person is he who keeps his desires under control and works for life after death; and sinful is he who runs after his desires and yet expects the best in the Hereafter." Sayyidna Sahl Ibn ` Abdullah Tustari ؓ said: "Your ailment is your selfish desires. And if you oppose them, it will turn into your cure." (All these narratives have been adapted from Qurtubi).

Tafseer tabari
أفرأيت من اتخذ دينه بهواه, فلا يهوى شيئا إلا ركبه, لأنه لا يؤمن بالله, ولا يحرِّم ما حَرَّمَ, ولا يحلل ما حَللَ, إنما دينه ما هويته نفسه يعمل به.

This man believes in Allah, but he follows a deen of his nafs, on the outside he may be Muslim but in reality he has done kufr and worshipped his nafs, like the people who do bid'ah to the point of leaving the deen, making sects from Islam that are not valid, believing in Prophets after rasuulullah صلي الله عليه وسل,
their deen is their hawaa
although they claim to only believe in Allah, and they do, but they do not only worship Allah, therefore they are actually mushriks

Sax i agree atheists are still mushriks because even though they claim not to believe in god they've elevated themselves and those who they obey to Allah's rank. Meaning they're guilty of shirk rububiyyah as they believe human beings are the ultimate judge that decides what's good for mankind from legislation down to the minute aspects of human lives. This is what makes them mushriks

This is very different than a muslim simply following their own desires while believing what they're doing is wrong and have not elevated neither themselves/desires or anyone else to Allah's rank meaning they've not diverted any aspect of rububiyyah to other than Allah.


Even in the ayah it states that they've taken their desires/whims as their ilah meaning aspects of rububiyyah have been diverted to other than Allah. This is similar to case of jews & christians taking their rabbis & monks as they rabbs by believing and following them when they made halal what was haram, and haram what was halal for them. In both cases diversion of rububiyyah have been made to other than Allah.

 

[cooli3o]

sxb you've misunderstood this issue altogether & conflating a number of things. I believe this is due to you subscribing to the salafi dawah & giving your own understanding of it.

What you said above is full of contradictions: on one had you claim that sinning is a form of worshipping other than Allah yet at the same time back track on it and state you're not referring to the islamic meaning of worship.

When a person worships others besides Allah, this is major shirk there's no other meaning to it sxb. No scholar has ever stated that worshipping other than Allah isn't major shirk or that it means something else etc.

There's a difference between following your desires and worshipping them, in the case of a muslim following his/her own desires doesn't lead to worshipping them unless there's a belief attached to it. When people elevate their desires to Allah's rank such that it becomes the ultimate judge of what is haram and halal for them then this when they take their desires as their Ilah and are considered worshipping their nafs . Merely following desires or even being overwhelmed by them doesn't constitute worship sxb.


Regarding the hadith you posted, it is referring to the 3 levels of faith/islam
1. islam
2. iman
3. ihsan

ihsan is the highest level of faith and when a person reaches this level he/she is called a muhsin, similarly a mumin is when a person has attained the level of iman and lastly a muslim is one who submits and follows islam but has shortcomings in his level of practising the deen ie commits major sins etc

So in the hadith when the Prophet (peace be upon him) refers to them as not being believers, it means that they have dropped in rank with regards to their level of islam( ie went from level 2 to level 1), and not that they've apostatised from the deen.

حَدَّثَنِي يَحْيَى بْنُ بُكَيْرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا اللَّيْثُ، عَنْ عُقَيْلٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، عَنْ أَبِي بَكْرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ لاَ يَزْنِي الزَّانِي حِينَ يَزْنِي وَهْوَ مُؤْمِنٌ، وَلاَ يَشْرَبُ الْخَمْرَ حِينَ يَشْرَبُ وَهْوَ مُؤْمِنٌ، وَلاَ يَسْرِقُ حِينَ يَسْرِقُ وَهْوَ مُؤْمِنٌ، وَلاَ يَنْتَهِبُ نُهْبَةً يَرْفَعُ النَّاسُ إِلَيْهِ فِيهَا أَبْصَارَهُمْ وَهْوَ مُؤْمِنٌ ‏"‏‏.‏ وَعَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ الْمُسَيَّبِ، وَأَبِي، سَلَمَةَ عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِمِثْلِهِ، إِلاَّ النُّهْبَةَ

​

In the hadith the word used is mumin and not muslim indicating that it's referring to the levels of faith.


Mere disobedience towards Allah doesn't mean that you're associating others with Allah or that you believe you're somehow a god etc. Laakin when the disobedience is accompanied by the belief that whatever one is doing is right and what Allah commanded is wrong then it becomes an entirely different matter.

A person's emaan goes up and down, there's no single person who's emaan is 100% all the time. Muslims committ major sins are still muslims unless there's evidence contrary to this and as such they're considered to be worshippers of Allah. The only time they stop being one is when they either commit shirk & kufr that removes from the fold of islam.

I dont ascribe to salafi dawah

second of all, their is a type of misunderstanding, When I refer to worship, I am talking about a lesser form, so for I will not refer to it as worship, rather I will refer to it as following

the main point of my argument, is the belief a person has in la ilaaha illallah is dependent on how much he falls into sin or not, the more he falls into sin the less his belief in la ilaaha illallah. this is due to him following a God other than Allah, that being his nafs and shaytaan, but since he does not worship it in the ultimate sense, but just following it, the act itself is something done against Allah and against his rulings, when a person obeys hs nafs, he is placing his nafs higher above Allahs commands and prohibitions, and he believes his nafs can guide him to good, now this is a great sin,as he is essentially following something other than Allah, in a sense, a God other than Allah, but since he does not do ibadaah of it in the ultimate sense, he is still a muslim

my point being, the more a person sins, the more they follow their nafs until they fully ensd up worshipping it

I shouldnt have used the word worship first bc its and english word, but my point still stands, because everything done for other than Allah, in terms of ma'siyah, is done for a God other than Allah,although thismay not constitute as major shirk.

 

[cooli3o]

Sax i agree atheists are still mushriks because even though they claim not to believe in god they've elevated themselves and those who they obey to Allah's rank. Meaning they're guilty of shirk rububiyyah as they believe human beings are the ultimate judge that decides what's good for mankind from legislation down to the minute aspects of human lives. This is what makes them mushriks

This is very different than a muslim simply following their own desires while believing what they're doing is wrong and have not elevated neither themselves/desires or anyone else to Allah's rank meaning they've not diverted any aspect of rububiyyah to other than Allah.


Even in the ayah it states that they've taken their desires/whims as their ilah meaning aspects of rububiyyah have been diverted to other than Allah. This is similar to case of jews & christians taking their rabbis & monks as they rabbs by believing and following them when they made halal what was haram, and haram what was halal for them. In both cases diversion of rububiyyah have been made to other than Allah.

I agree with you, and this also applies to Muslims to deny Quran verses, mock the Quran and mock the Prophet, in this case they have done shirk, bc they are using their nafs as a God other than Allah

the point about general sin is more of a complex ,matter which is difficult to explain to anyone who hasnt delved deep into Islamic knowledge of tazkiyah and the like, once you really actualise that, you will completely understand what I mean when I say sin, is following a God other than Allah, butnot on the same level as major shirk

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I dont ascribe to salafi dawah

second of all, their is a type of misunderstanding, When I refer to worship, I am talking about a lesser form, so for I will not refer to it as worship, rather I will refer to it as following

the main point of my argument, is the belief a person has in la ilaaha illallah is dependent on how much he falls into sin or not, the more he falls into sin the less his belief in la ilaaha illallah. this is due to him following a God other than Allah, that being his nafs and shaytaan, but since he does not worship it in the ultimate sense, but just following it, the act itself is something done against Allah and against his rulings, when a person obeys hs nafs, he is placing his nafs higher above Allahs commands and prohibitions, and he believes his nafs can guide him to good, now this is a great sin,as he is essentially following something other than Allah, in a sense, a God other than Allah, but since he does not do ibadaah of it in the ultimate sense, he is still a muslim

my point being, the more a person sins, the more they follow their nafs until they fully ensd up worshipping it

I shouldnt have used the word worship first bc its and english word, but my point still stands, because everything done for other than Allah, in terms of ma'siyah, is done for a God other than Allah,although thismay not constitute as major shirk.

You stated your teachers were salafi previously & more importantly your understanding of what worship entails is typical of salafi theology in the sense that you’re looking at actions in & themselves as an indication that worship has taken place.

In addition to this you talk about a certain threshold of ibadah as a factor for determining whether major shirk has taken place ie a person can “worship” something else other than Allah but not be guilty of major shirk unless this threshold is passed. What this threshold is and how you define it is vague & this is somewhat similar to what sultan al umayri talks about in his works about ibadah.

I don’t understand how you can claim that when a muslim sins then this an indication that he has taken another god besides Allah ? Do you realise what you’re saying here sxb ? On top that you then claim that this is not major shirk. Which scholar has ever stated this sxb ?

Even in the ayah that talks about taking desires/ whims etc as one’s ilah it’s not referring to merely sin. In the context of the ayah it’s referring to the case where a person elevates their desire etc to a level such that it’s what determines what’s right & wrong in opposition to what Allah has commanded.

A muslim committing a sin due to being overwhelmed by their nafs doesn’t mean that they’re taking their nafs as a god or believe that what they’re doing is guiding to good in opposition to what Allah has commanded. How many Muslims have you met that say such a thing ? When you commit sins do you actually believe that you’ve taken another god besides Allah ?

Sins are shortcomings and unless accompanied by beliefs they don’t take a person out of Islam nor is there worshiping or taking others as a god besides Allah.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I agree with you, and this also applies to Muslims to deny Quran verses, mock the Quran and mock the Prophet, in this case they have done shirk, bc they are using their nafs as a God other than Allah

the point about general sin is more of a complex ,matter which is difficult to explain to anyone who hasnt delved deep into Islamic knowledge of tazkiyah and the like, once you really actualise that, you will completely understand what I mean when I say sin, is following a God other than Allah, butnot on the same level as major shirk

Mocking & denying quran & the Prophet ﷺ are actions of kufr not shirk.

The issue isn’t about difficulty of Islamic knowledge but more to do with your own understanding of what you’ve read. The fact that you believe a muslim who sins equates to taking & worshipping a god other than Allah all the while not being guilty of major shirk is indeed problematic sxb

This is why I stated you’re conflating issues & most probably misunderstood the context & meaning of what was intended.

 

[cooli3o]

Mocking & denying quran & the Prophet ﷺ are actions of kufr not shirk.

it is an action of shirk, as the person is taking his nafs as a God

 

[cooli3o]

you’re looking at actions in

its not the actions its the heart which commits shirk/kufr

I don’t understand how you can claim that when a muslim sins then this an indication that he has taken another god besides Allah ? Do you realise what you’re saying here sxb ? On top that you then claim that this is not major shirk. Which scholar has ever stated this sxb ?

Even in the ayah that talks about taking desires/ whims etc as one’s ilah it’s not referring to merely sin. In the context of the ayah it’s referring to the case where a person elevates their desire etc to a level such that it’s what determines what’s right & wrong in opposition to what Allah has commanded.

A muslim committing a sin due to being overwhelmed by their nafs doesn’t mean that they’re taking their nafs as a god or believe that what they’re doing is guiding to good in opposition to what Allah has commanded. How many Muslims have you met that say such a thing ? When you commit sins do you actually believe that you’ve taken another god besides Allah ?

Sins are shortcomings and unless accompanied by beliefs they don’t take a person out of Islam nor is there worshiping or taking others as a god besides Allah.

its too difficult for me to explain right now, you will realise what I mean, hopefully, when you get more knowledge

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

it is an action of shirk, as the person is taking his nafs as a God

how is it shirk that's my question, the action of mocking leads to kufr not shirk

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

its not the actions its the heart which commits shirk/kufr

its too difficult for me to explain right now, you will realise what I mean, hopefully, when you get more knowledge

That isn't the issue like i stated above as what you're claiming is a very extreme position sxb. Which scholars have stated what you claim above send me links if you can sxb

 

[cooli3o]

how is it shirk that's my question, the action of mocking leads to kufr not shirk

shirk is associating another God with Allah
When a person mocks Allah, what he is really doing, is following what his nafs tells him to do, because his nafs is telling him to do something which is kufr, what he is doing is shirk, because he is placing his nafs above Allah and his commands, to the point he will follow it and make fun of Allah
just like a man who rejects an ayah from the Quran or makes something halal or haram when it isn't are committing shirk, they are turning themselves into Gods who can decide what they want to do

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

shirk is associating another God with Allah
When a person mocks Allah, what he is really doing, is following what his nafs tells him to do, because his nafs is telling him to do something which is kufr, what he is doing is shirk, because he is placing his nafs above Allah and his commands, to the point he will follow it and make fun of Allah
just like a man who rejects an ayah from the Quran or makes something halal or haram when it isn't are committing shirk, they are turning themselves into Gods who can decide what they want to do

The action of mocking, rejecting, insulting etc all of them are actions of kufr not shirk. Unless accompanied by beliefs that lead to association, elevation , ie diverting aspects of rububiyyah to other than Allah it’s not classified as shirk.

People have different reasons for rejecting, insulting like due to arrogance, hypocrisy, disdain etc not all types of kufr involve an element of shirk

 

[cooli3o]

The action of mocking, rejecting, insulting etc all of them are actions of kufr not shirk. Unless accompanied by beliefs that lead to association, elevation , ie diverting aspects of rububiyyah to other than Allah it’s not classified as shirk.

People have different reasons for rejecting, insulting like due to arrogance, hypocrisy, disdain etc not all types of kufr involve an element of shirk

all kufr involves shirk

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

all kufr involves shirk

care to elaborate sxb ? let's use the action of denying quran for instance how is this action in & itself shirk

 

[cooli3o]

care to elaborate sxb ? let's use the action of denying quran for instance how is this action in & itself shirk

you've taken your opinion above the truth, you have made yourself a God, therefore you have commit shirk,

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

you've taken your opinion above the truth, you have made yourself a God, therefore you have commit shirk,

You’re still adding an additional charge to the action itself sxb. I asked how is the action in & itself shirk ?

if there’s no difference between kufr & shirk then why are both terms used in different contexts in the Quran ?

 

[cooli3o]

You’re still adding an additional charge to the action itself sxb. I asked how is the action in & itself shirk ?

if there’s no difference between kufr & shirk then why are both terms used in different contexts in the Quran ?

There is a difference between shirk and kufr they are 2 sides of the same coin, like push and pull
one is disbelief one is belief in something else
Are you asking how the action itself is shirk?
if a person prostrates to someone else, out of respect, you cant say sujood is an action of kufr, as it is dependent on the situation

in this situation, the person is doing an action, in devotion and obedience to his nafs,
just like the jews and christians who took their monks as arbaab, all they did was follow their rulings and believe in them, but that action was counted as shirk in the Quran