How recognizable are somali manuscript

[Midas]

So i was reading an old thread talking about how terrible arabic script was for representing somali. Since you dont represent vowels so you wouldn't be able to easily distinguish between works like saar( put) sar (cut) and siir (secret) . Which made me wonder how many somali manuscript must be out their that simply aren't recognizable as afsomali and also maybe they aren't as common as thought since it seems extremely annoying to write somali in Arabic script.

 

[Shimbiris]

From reading the sources like that Kenyan one where they were apparently making manuscripts en masse, I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of undeciphered or "realized" stuff is just out there. Inshallah, as Somali scholarship picks up in the coming decades and we scrounge together funds to buy out family and private collections, we'll see more manuscripts.

 

[Midas]

From reading the sources like that Kenyan one where they were apparently making manuscripts en masse, I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of undeciphered or "realized" stuff is just out there. Inshallah, as Somali scholarship picks up in the coming decades and we scrounge together funds to buy out family and private collections, we'll see more manuscripts.

My ultimate dream would be for us to also discover some pre-islamic manuscripts as well. So that we would then be able to be able to construct a history of somali literature going back millenia.

Were honestly incredible lucky in that considering how theres one language on the Somali peninsula since antiquity the chances of it being written are so much higher than in places like north africa
I

 

[Midas]

Honestly considering the existence of somali interpreters who could speak Greek and interpretd for other somalis. It wouldn't surprise me if we even had Greek philosophy translated into somali or even histories modeled after the Greek ones.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Receipt of a Somali interpreter<br><br>He received his payment from an Ancient Egyptian official named Diogenes<br><br>Thebes, Ancient Egypt<br><br>A Greek papyrus mentions a Somali named Apollonius employed by The Ptolemaic State to translate between Somalis and Ancient Greeks<br><br>Such a Somali job <a href="https://t.co/NKoUFty66Q">pic.twitter.com/NKoUFty66Q</a></p>&mdash; Light 𐘾 OVO (@CrashoutSomali) <a href="">July 16, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[cunug3aad]

Honestly considering the existence of somali interpreters who could speak Greek and interpretd for other somalis. It wouldn't surprise me if we even had Greek philosophy translated into somali or even histories modeled after the Greek ones.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Receipt of a Somali interpreter<br><br>He received his payment from an Ancient Egyptian official named Diogenes<br><br>Thebes, Ancient Egypt<br><br>A Greek papyrus mentions a Somali named Apollonius employed by The Ptolemaic State to translate between Somalis and Ancient Greeks<br><br>Such a Somali job <a href="https://t.co/NKoUFty66Q">pic.twitter.com/NKoUFty66Q</a></p>&mdash; Light 𐘾 OVO (@CrashoutSomali) <a href="">July 16, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This receipt only refers to an Appolionus of the Troglodytes who could have been anywhere from the lower nile to the swahili coast. Although the german museum does elaborate on their supposed location so i gues it could be some sort of proto somali or something

At first glance, receipts appear monotonous and rather insignificant. But they provide us with an important insight into everyday life in the past and often lead to complex and socio-cultural questions. The text to be presented here also represents such a case.


This one-sided papyrus contains a receipt from Thebes in Upper Egypt, dated August 18, 134 B.C., based on the date in the last line. The papyrus originally belonged to the collection of the Greek merchant and antiquities dealer Giovanni Anastasi and was purchased in 1857 in Paris by Richard Lepsius, then vice-director of the Egyptian Museum in Berlin.


In the text an Apollonios confirms that he got two copper talents from a Diogenes who is an official of the royal bank in Thebes. That sounds rather unspectacular at first. But already the payment of the money by a bank official suggests that this could be an official matter, even if it is not explicitly mentioned. But Apollonio’s profession, which was added to his name, could give a hint. He is the interpreter of the Trogodytes.


The Latin and Greek sources give us only vague and even contradictory information about the Trogodytes. As nomads, it is difficult to locate them geographically. In the Ptolemaic period, their area can generally be located in the Arab desert on the west coast of the Red Sea, especially in the area between Egypt and Ethiopia. In the case of our text, one can probably assume that the text refers to the Trogodytes in the south of Egypt, since Apollonios received his money from the royal bank in Thebes in Upper Egypt. The Ptolemies had intensive trade connections with the Trogodytes, which were important for the country’s economic system. They made it possible to import spices and valuable goods from Arabia and India.


Apollonios now acts as interpreter for these Trogodytes. Since no other reason for the payment of money was given in this receipt, it can be concluded that his work as an interpreter for the Trogodytes is the reason for the payment of the two talents. It can also be assumed that he was employed by the state for this job, as he was paid directly by the royal bank.


But the text also contains other interesting information. In the second part a Ptolemaios explains that he wrote the receipt at the request of Apollonios, because he cannot write. Similar formulations can be found quite frequently in the texts from Greco-Roman and Byzantine Egypt. But they might not have been expected from an interpreter. It remains unclear whether Apollonios is a Greek who speaks the language of the Trogodytes, or a Trogodyte who also speaks Greek, or a person of other descent. His Greek name was too common and popular among non-Greeks to allow further conclusions to be drawn.


At least we learn something about the context of this receipt. Ptolemaios, who wrote for Apollonios, describes himself as a commander of foreign units. In this military context Apollonios can also be located, who perhaps took part as an interpreter in a trip to the land of the Trogodytes.

Receipt of an Interpreter | Berlin Papyrus Database

berlpap.smb.museum

 

[Midas]

This receipt only refers to an Appolionus of the Troglodytes who could have been anywhere from the lower nile to the swahili coast. Although the german museum does elaborate on their supposed location so i gues it could be some sort of proto somali or something

Receipt of an Interpreter | Berlin Papyrus Database

berlpap.smb.museum

View attachment 374617

I mean i think its pretty strong evidence ancient thebes (modern luxor) is basically on the wadi hammat red sea route . Also the fact that there exists interpreters points to a sizeable community just like how in the west somali interpreters exist because of how large the somali diaspora is.

 

[Midas]

You know now that I think about its actually pretty intresting how this receipt is actually from 134 b.c which is almost 200 years before the periplus was written . The fact that you had such a large community 200 years before that period really speaks to how much further back in time this trade must have gone.

Also cleoaptra according to plutarch spoke the language of Troglodytes which was considered seperate from the language of Ethiopians (which was a refrence to merotic)

 

[Emir of Zayla]

My ultimate dream would be for us to also discover some pre-islamic manuscripts as well. So that we would then be able to be able to construct a history of somali literature going back millenia.

Were honestly incredible lucky in that considering how theres one language on the Somali peninsula since antiquity the chances of it being written are so much higher than in places like north africa
I

If we were to ever find any manuscripts from Pre-Islamic/Early-Islamic era, I would hope we would find manuscripts much like Beowolf, a 10th century Old English poem written about early Germanic legends and it’s one of the only reasons we know a lot about Anglo-Saxon mythology. Even just a handful of various manuscripts could give us golden info about Old Somali culture like Sufi practices (like coffee), pre-Islamic traditions (like growing cinnamon), poetry (that would’ve been even more competitive by learned men who may have read foreign poetry like Arab or Persian).

 

[Mohamedamiin120]

My ultimate dream would be for us to also discover some pre-islamic manuscripts as well. So that we would then be able to be able to construct a history of somali literature going back millenia.

Were honestly incredible lucky in that considering how theres one language on the Somali peninsula since antiquity the chances of it being written are so much higher than in places like north africa
I

Pre-Islamic manuscripts? Highly doubt they ever existed, and if they did exist in the past they probably either were not preserved or straight up destroyed.

What use would a semi-agricultural society without strong centralization (not even qabiil yet) have in making it's own writing system? The Ethio-Semites took forever to write their stuff down and they were pretty centralized, highly sedentary, and even then they just stole Yemeni and Greek homework (to an extent).

 

[Midas]

If we were to ever find any manuscripts from Pre-Islamic/Early-Islamic era, I would hope we would find manuscripts much like Beowolf, a 10th century Old English poem written about early Germanic legends and it’s one of the only reasons we know a lot about Anglo-Saxon mythology. Even just a handful of various manuscripts could give us golden info about Old Somali culture like Sufi practices (like coffee), pre-Islamic traditions (like growing cinnamon), poetry (that would’ve been even more competitive by learned men who may have read foreign poetry like Arab or Persian).

I definitely think its possible since in the pre-islamic period we didn't convert to some Abrahamic relegion so whatever pagan/monothestic beliefs we had will likley be self-evident in what writing we had.

Also im pretty sure of the few 19th and early 20th century somali manuscript scholars have looked at a good chunk of them were some kind of poem. So I think that bodes well for whatever medieval somali manuscripts we find

 

[Midas]

Pre-Islamic manuscripts? Highly doubt they ever existed, and if they did exist in the past they probably either were not preserved or straight up destroyed.

What use would a semi-agricultural society without strong centralization (not even qabiil yet) have in making it's own writing system? The Ethio-Semites took forever to write their stuff down and they were pretty centralized, highly sedentary, and even then they just stole Yemeni and Greek homework (to an extent).

Where are you getting all these assumptions from. Its pretty clear somalia had urbanization in the preislamic period. In the other thread I posted about a recipet of a likely somali interpreter getting paid for his services in eygpt in 134 b.c which is almost 200 years before the periplus.
We have no idea how old somali urbanism is but I would not be surprised if it goes back all the way too the bronze age.

As for the survival of pre-islamic somali manuscripts . Considering we have an incredibly dry climate and the fact that we have countless cairns and tombs and abandoned towns it wouldn't at all be surprising if they survived.

 

[Midas]

I also forgot there is also the factor of somalia having way more wood to create paper with then the Arabian peninsula as well as more livestock to create parchment with. So weather your talking parchment or paper we likely made it all locally since both materials were abundant.

 

[Midas]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Somali papermaking :<br><br>Somalis have used the frankincense trees native to Somalia to produce writing paper. By harvesting the tree’s second layer of bark, they created a material perfectly suited for writing. <a href="https://t.co/O1RVTSRfc8">pic.twitter.com/O1RVTSRfc8</a></p>&mdash; SomaliChronicles (@Som_Chronicles) <a href="">January 16, 2025</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>