Harla - Hubat connection

[Step a side]

Keep reading to fully understand

This is what Ibn Said Al Maghribi stated in his works in the 13th century. The Karla of Hubat, east of the Habasha, traded in Gold and settled from the Mara mountains (Awash) to the borders of Kenya and Ethiopia (where Zanj nilotic tribes lived). Same fella who visited Merca and confirmed it the capital of the Hawiya.

The mention of Hubat and Karla (Kazla), Hemingford, Trimingham and few other authors call Hubat the Harala capital and we can see the pattern here. The Nile of the Habasha is the Blue Nile River that ends in Lake Tana while the south east lake mentioned is Hawassa. The Zunj mentioned aren't Kenyan but likely the Adoni of the Upper Shabelle, who all probably lived more western which has more lakes. All the location, spelling and industry suggest the Karanle kingdom was vast and powerful.

The Source is called Jughrafiya (The World Map divided into Seven Climates). Here is the link

Welcome To Medieval Nubia - Ibn Sa'id al-Maghribi

www.medievalnubia.info

 

[Step a side]

The fact they were known to the Habasha seperately from the Somalis is mentioned by Ibn Said, the "racial characteristic of jinn" is a misdemeanor. It could be a euphemism for passion, virility and immense power. They match the extensive description of the Harala of the Futuh running their own division led by Sultan Mohammad a paternal cousin of Gurey.

 

[Step a side]

Look how Karanle is spelt in Arabic by Maqribi

الكارلا

 

[Step a side]

Karalle (6/40) area matches the Karanle also known as the Karanye and Karara of Bale.

 

[Step a side]

Karalle highlighted in yellow. Suffice to say the Oromo and Amhara pronounce this way hence its passages given to foreigners this way. Waqooyi folks call us Karinle. Its an ancient phenomena to have watered down versions of your clan name, like Habarnoosa (Habr Yonis)

 

[Step a side]

@Mckenzie

 

[Midas]

I dont know how convincing I find it. Although I think its intresting how widespread diffrent haiwye clans are. Are we sure these clans were always considered part of hawiye.

 

[Midas]

Honestly ive always been fascinated by how clans in southern somalia seem to persevere all these old archaic oral traditions.

I Might just marry a hawiye wife so I can get acess and research their old traditions

 

[Step a side]

I dont know how convincing I find it. Although I think its intresting how widespread diffrent haiwye clans are. Are we sure these clans were always considered part of hawiye.

Karanle is the elder son of Sheikh Hawiye. Both Karanle and his father Hawiye are buried next to each other side by side at Qundhura which is at the heart of Hobat. The Hawiye from southern Somalia are the younger branches that moved there a millennia ago.

 

[Midas]

Karanle is the elder son of Sheikh Hawiye. Both Karanle and his father Hawiye are buried next to each other side by side at Qundhura which is at the heart of Hobat. The Hawiye from southern Somalia are the younger branches that moved there a millennia ago.

View attachment 371158View attachment 371159View attachment 371160View attachment 371161View attachment 371162View attachment 371163View attachment 371164View attachment 371165

Then who lived in southern somalia before this ? Was it just the garre and digil/mirifle.

The timeline you propose for the migration of haiwye around mogadishu is really intresting. Since the second or third warsangeli ancestor is named xamargale and he seems just my how may name generation's the names go back to be around the 1200/1300s

 

[Bataati]

@Step a side since you are the most distinguished historian on all things Hawiye on this forum, I thought I'd direct this to your attention. Is there a river or former river by the name Karan in Hararghe or the surrounding areas? I'm asking this because in the beginning of Futuh where it talks about The Imam routing Sultan Abu Bakr and his Somalis; I believe I found a mention of Karan in the book relating to the river near Kidad.

See in the English translation it's spelled as Qarn but the Arabic version I was looking at has it spelled like قرن Qaran (Highlighted down below).

Compared that to the actual spelling of Karan/Karanle,

Maybe Arab Faqih or later scribes mistakenly wrote Qaaf instead of Kaaf.

I feel like this would help pinpoint exactly where Kidad was/is and reinforcing Karanle presence regarding placenames named after them.

What do you think?

 

[Guure⁸]

@Step a side since you are the most distinguished historian on all things Hawiye on this forum, I thought I'd direct this to your attention. Is there a river or former river by the name Karan in Hararghe or the surrounding areas? I'm asking this because in the beginning of Futuh where it talks about The Imam routing Sultan Abu Bakr and his Somalis; I believe I found a mention of Karan in the book relating to the river near Kidad.

View attachment 371166

See in the English translation it's spelled as Qarn but the Arabic version I was looking at has it spelled like قرن Qaran (Highlighted down below).

View attachment 371167

Compared that to the actual spelling of Karan/Karanle,
View attachment 371168

Maybe Arab Faqih or later scribes mistakenly wrote Qaaf instead of Kaaf.

I feel like this would help pinpoint exactly where Kidad was/is and reinforcing Karanle presence regarding placenames named after them.

What do you think?

Qarn means a horn in arabic so idk if it's a misspelling

 

[Maakhri2024]

The fact they were known to the Habasha seperately from the Somalis is mentioned by Ibn Said, the "racial characteristic of jinn" is a misdemeanor.

Ibn Sa'id al-Maghribi did not attribute to the Kazla people any "racial characteristic of jinn" That misinterpretation arises from a misunderstanding of the Arabic .

You should have read the Arabic text .
I am not aware of your proficiency in Arabic.

 

[Guure⁸]

Ibn Sa'id al-Maghribi did not attribute to the Kazla people any "racial characteristic of jinn" That misinterpretation arises from a misunderstanding of the Arabic .

You should have read the Arabic text .
I am not aware of your proficiency in Arabic.

Can u send the Arabic text if u don't mind?

 

[Maakhri2024]

Can u send the Arabic text if u don't mind?

وفي هذا الجزء الرابع من مدن الحلشة المذكورة في الكتب حنبيه حيث الطول ثمان وخمسون درجة والعرض ثلاث درجات. وفي شرقيها بلاد كزله. وهم مشهورون في بلاد الحبشة مرغوب في جنسهم. والحبشة بالإطلاق أفضل أجناس السودان وخصيان الملوك والأكابر منهم. وهم نصارى وفيهم بالساحل مسلمون. وبلاد كزله من أول خط الاستواء في مجاورة زنج الحبشة إلى جنوب جبل موريس الذي زعموا أن أهل حنبيه وتلك الجهات يعيشون مما فيه من معادن الذهب والفضة. وهو على أربعة أيام من حنبيه، وفي شرقيها وشمالها يبدأ من هنالك ويمر مشرقاً منحرفاً إلى الشمال حتى يشق نيل الحبشة وينتهي إلى بحرهم. وفي شرقي كزله وجنوبها بحيرة الحاورس وهي منسوبة إلى أمة من زنوج الحبشة عراة متوحشون، ويقال أن الذهب والرصاص القلعي في أرضهم كثير. قال ابن فاطمة: نقل عن بطليموس أن مركز هذه البحيرة في خط الاستواء حيث الطول اثنان وستون درجة وقطرها من كل ناحية إلى المركز درجتان. ويخرج منها نيل الحبشة الذي يشبه نيل مصر في زيادته أيام نقص الأنهار وفي وجود التماسيح وفرس النيل وذلك حيث الطول إحدى وستون درجة والعرض درجتان. وعلى شرقيه إلى جانب البحيرة من مدنهم المذكورة في الكتب النجاعة. ويمر إلى الشمال فيكون عليه حيث الطول اثنان وستون درجة والعرض ست درجات مرقطة وفي شمالها جبل المعادن المتقدم الذكر. والمدينة في شرقي النيل وفي شمال الجبل بلاد سحرته من أجناس الحبشة المذكورة وعمائرهم ممتدة مع هذا النيل من الجانبين. وفي شرقيه من مدن الحبشة المشهورة كلغور، وهي مجمع لهم في كل ناحية وبها ملتقى من يريد البحر أو النيل أو البرية. وموضوعها حيث الطول ثلاث وستون والعرض إحدى عشرة درجة. وفي شمالي سحرته من النيل إلى البحر بلاد الخاسه وهم مذمومون بين أجناس الحبشة وقد اشتهر عنهم أنهم يخصون من يقع إلى أيديهم ويدفعون ذكور الآدميين في صداقاتهم ويفتخرون بذلك. ومن شرقيهم إلى البحر سمهر وهي أرض يكون فيها القنا الطوال السمهرية. ومن غريب شأنها أنها إذا احتك بعضها ببعض انقدحت منها نار تحترق بها كلها أو طائفة منها على قدر الالتصاق ومساعدة الرياح. والغزلان في أرض سمهر كثيرة. ومن جلودها يشدون على الخيل عوض السروج ويركبون عليها، وقتالهم بالقنا السمهرية المذكورة ولهم بالطعن بها واللعب حذق، ويزعمون أنهم يصل إليهم من الجنوب قوم كالترك بيض ولهم شعور ويقاتلونهم. وإن صح هذا تكون الأقاليم بالجنوب مرتبطة كالأقاليم بالشمال، والكلام في ذلك يطول. وفي أرضهم الكركدن وله قرنان في جبهته أحدهما أطول من الآخر وهو حيوان مؤذ يصيده الفارس بأن يعدو خلفه فيضرب رجليه بالسيف فيقع وإن لم يحترز منه وقع الكركدن عليه فقتله مع فرسه، وهم يأكلون لحمه. وايضاً على نيلهم الأسود والفيلة. وفي شرقي كلغور بانحراف إلى الشمال مدينة نجبه التي تنسب إليها الجمال النجيبية وذلك حيث الطول خمس وستون درجة والعرض اثنتا عشرة درجة. وفي غربيها جبل الخماهن ويوجد فيه هذا الحجر وكان عزيزاً عند الفرس وكانوا يختمون به ويتداوون بالماء إذا حك فيه من حرارة الخماهن. ويقال له الصندل المعدني وهو داخل مدخل الصندل في مداواة العلل الحارة. وطول هذا الجبل مائة ميل من الجنوب إلى الشمال باعوجاج عندما يمر شمالاً إلى المشرق، وأول ما يلقاك من مدن الحبشة على بحر الهند من ساحله الغربي، وحد بلاد بربرا المتقدمة الذكر، خلف خط الاستواء، مدينة بطا وهي مشهورة على ألسن الحبشة الذين ببلادنا وهي على درجتين من الخط وطولها أربع وستون درجة ونصف. وفي شمالها من مدنهم على مائة ميل بأقصلي على جون داخل إلى المغرب نحو خمسين ميلاً. وفي شماليها منقوبه وهي جبل الدخلة المستمرة إلى الشرق حيث الطول خمس وستون درجة والعرض ثمان درجات وثلاثون دقيقة. وفي طرفيها جبل مقورس داخل في البحر. وفي شماله من مدن الحبشة المشهورة بلاد الزيلغ، وأهلها مسلمون يكثرون الحج والتردد إلى ساحل عدن وزبيد، وهي محل حطّ وإقلاع، ومنها يتوزع رقيق الحبشة على بلاد الإسلام الساحلية. وموضوعها على ركن من البحر ينتهي إليه عرض طرفه الغربي والشمالي، حيث الطول ست وستون درجة والعرض إحدى عشرة درجة غير دقائق.


والمذكور في الكتب من جزر هذا البحر المقاربة للساحل جزيرة قنبلو، بينها وبين باقصلي درجتان
ونصف وطرفها الجنوب في سمتها، وطولها مقارب لعرضها نحو درجتين. وبين ركنها الشرقي الشمالي وبين عدن أربع درجات ونصف، وكانت عامرة وهي الآن خراب يأوي إليها من أحزم من المراكب واحتاج إلى الماء والحطب. ف وطرفها الجنوب في سمتها، وطولها مقارب لعرضها نحو درجتين. وبين ركنها الشرقي الشمالي وبين عدن أربع درجات ونصف، وكانت عامرة وهي الآن خراب يأوي إليها من أحزم من المراكب واحتاج إلى الماء والحطب

 

[Step a side]

@Step a side since you are the most distinguished historian on all things Hawiye on this forum, I thought I'd direct this to your attention. Is there a river or former river by the name Karan in Hararghe or the surrounding areas? I'm asking this because in the beginning of Futuh where it talks about The Imam routing Sultan Abu Bakr and his Somalis; I believe I found a mention of Karan in the book relating to the river near Kidad.

View attachment 371166

See in the English translation it's spelled as Qarn but the Arabic version I was looking at has it spelled like قرن Qaran (Highlighted down below).

View attachment 371167

Compared that to the actual spelling of Karan/Karanle,
View attachment 371168

Maybe Arab Faqih or later scribes mistakenly wrote Qaaf instead of Kaaf.

I feel like this would help pinpoint exactly where Kidad was/is and reinforcing Karanle presence regarding placenames named after them.

What do you think?

Amazing find brother. I think you are right. River Qaran in Futuh might just well be river Karan which is near Harar. Karan and Karanle are interchangeable for the clans name. Karan is a one of the seasonal rivers that ultimately feeds the Shabelle river.

There is also webi Karanle but this is more towards Iimey/Bale.

Post in thread 'Tomb of Amir Nur & Sh Mohammed Khalif'
https://www.somalispot.com/threads/tomb-of-amir-nur-sh-mohammed-khalif.169403/post-4093888

 

[Step a side]

Then who lived in southern somalia before this ? Was it just the garre and digil/mirifle.

The timeline you propose for the migration of haiwye around mogadishu is really intresting. Since the second or third warsangeli ancestor is named xamargale and he seems just my how may name generation's the names go back to be around the 1200/1300s

Yeah, Garre and some of the D&M and before them were other Cushitic speaking tribes including hunter and gatherers. RX migration wasn't in one wave though, it was in multiple waves for example Tunnis and Jiidos came before Duubdheere, Mirifle, Bagadi, Jambalul, Caleemo, Dabarre etc. Groups that were in south before them are like Eyle, Gawaawiin, Shiidle , Makanne, Kaboole etc and Maadanle, Maatire and their likes. Even some of the Hawiye arrived before some of the RX. Historians like IMLewis states clans like Raarane Hawiye have been in the dooy before the Raxanwayn arrived and were overwelmed or assimilated. There were Samaales in south that were standalone in their time but now mostly in rahanweyn like cawrmale, dawle, hoon , malabsaay hiraab , marexan (not to be confused with darood) , maane and others.

 

[Maakhri2024]

Look how Karanle is spelt in Arabic by Maqribi

الكارلا alkaarlaa

Correction to you:
it is written Kazla كزله and not alkaarlaa الكارلا .

The word (كزله kzlh pronounced as :Kazla) is written with the letter h " ـه " at the end of the word in the book of Ibn Saeed Al-Maghribi.
Also notice the word kzlh كزله : k -z -L - h ( Kazlh ) is with the letter z " ز " not the letter r " ر " .

There is a dot above the letter z, while the letter r does not have a dot in Arabic script.
It appears that a misplaced dot transformed the letter
" ر" into "ز", changing the word Karla كرله into Kazla كزله .

وفي شرقيها بلاد كزله
--------
وبلاد كزله من أول خط الاستواء
---------
وفي شرقي كزله وجنوبها بحيرة الحاورس

 

[Maakhri2024]

Keep reading to fully understand

View attachment 371136

This is what Ibn Said Al Maghribi stated in his works in the 13th century. The Karla of Hubat, east of the Habasha, traded in Gold and settled from the Mara mountains (Awash) to the borders of Kenya and Ethiopia (where Zanj nilotic tribes lived). Same fella who visited Merca and confirmed it the capital of the Hawiya.

View attachment 371139
The mention of Hubat and Karla (Kazla), Hemingford, Trimingham and few other authors call Hubat the Harala capital and we can see the pattern here. The Nile of the Habasha is the Blue Nile River that ends in Lake Tana while the south east lake mentioned is Hawassa. The Zunj mentioned aren't Kenyan but likely the Adoni of the Upper Shabelle, who all probably lived more western which has more lakes. All the location, spelling and industry suggest the Karanle kingdom was vast and powerful.

The Source is called Jughrafiya (The World Map divided into Seven Climates). Here is the link

Welcome To Medieval Nubia - Ibn Sa'id al-Maghribi

www.medievalnubia.info

[ Kazla [Karla?], a people well-known among the Ḥabasha and highly reputed [p. 406] for certain of their racial characteristics (jins) ].

The phrase "for certain of their racial characteristics " is a poor and misleading translation.
This is obviously someone trying to hide something.

Do you know the real meaning of this misleadingly translated phrase?

 

[Step a side]

@Maakhri2024

Ok first of all

The inference is more important than the spelling. In the first line Ibn Maghribi says Halsha instead of Habasha. Secondly the description, longitude and latitude given points to the Horn specifically Somalia/Ethiopia area.

The denotation or grouping of people is not important as Maghribi and others didn't visit the interior but rather took word from merchants and visitors. It is for this reason we know Zaila is sometimes called a Christian Port of the Habash and Xamar a port of the Zanj. One of the characteristics of the Karanle known to the Habasha is their beauty.

From this we know Hubat and Karanle is being reffered to as Da Marco Vicano excavated the Hararge Mountains and found Chinese coins dating back to the Ayyubid era and gold mines, which demonstrate a highly advanced group living in the vicinity.