Arabsiyawi
HA Activist.
Why not argue and substantiate your claims ? It doesn't hurt and it's a better look than to just dismiss it like this, even if you're most were to be 100% right. I'd be glad to see you guys to it ngl
CULTURE Harari family names that are somali
- Thread starter Emir of Harar
- Start date
Riftvalley
VIP
You wrote Somalis did not have a settlement and were all nomads. This is where the trolling comes in. Somalis built and were part of the oldest and largest Islamic urban sites in the Horn, especially in the region of what became known as the Adal empire. Somalis were responsible for nicknames like zaylici Berberi, Muqdishi and Jabarti being given to horn African Muslims. There were also urban settlements across the coast from what is known as SL-PL-all the way down to Southern Somalia. Then there were town settlements deep into Southern riverine areas, and now abandoned sites are being found as far as Nugaal. The archeology is now confirming similarities between medieval ruins in SL and Harla sites; it simply means Harla tribe and/or a smaller sultanate prospered as result of the sultanate taking it over and facilitating trade and development. This is the conclusion those Spanish archaeologists to. If you bothered to read some of the posts on this site you would have found many sources confirming this.
BTW Somali nomads were an essential component of trade, defensive jihadi, and religious facilitation in the Horn. Harar itself is said to have been built on an old nomadic trading/watering post. The sites and ruins of medieval sites such as Derbi Belanbel (oh, look: another Somali name) cited as belonging to “Harla” lies on old trading and Dawah point where traders and scholars interlinked. One would have to explain who made those camel carvings in the Harla sites which are clearly pre Islamic, if all Somalis miraculously spawned out of northern Somalia and displaced Harla in the Middle Ages?
The second point you are wrong on is this myth of “Harla” settlements in northern Somalia or them being displaced. The archeology and documented sources in North and West Somalia shows a continuous existence of the same population from antiquity to now ( prior to Oromo invasions and migrations). This ignorance comes from colonial writers interviewing some people citing myths as history. Some of the same people also attributed Oromos living there and Somalis descending from Arabs. Should we take all oral history as fact? The second reason people say this is because of some erroneous conceptualisation by Western linguists who dismissively assigned a lot of Somali words as being of Semitic in origin (ugaz, garaad, etc).
Even if were to accept Harla as being assimilated by Somalis or being them being a standalone group, one would have to still explain the intertwining of these two communities and their familial relationships as shown in the Futuh. Then you would have to explain all the Somali loan words in Harari as well as Burton documenting large Somali populations in the city.
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Step a side
VIP
Back in the days I used to get excited about this topic. It has become too repetitive. It’s the same Harari guy that comes on here calling us all nomads
I kept it really simple. The entire Harla contingent was led by a Somali Sultan Mohamed who was paternal cousin of Gurey. He was literally the chief of one of the Harla tribes of Zerba. This is proof that Harla were just settled Somalis. What more does he need to know? Gurey, his cousins (Abu Bakr Qechinn, Zeharbu, Nur ibn Mujahid etc), nephews (Waziir Abbas, Amir Tolha, Gasa Omar etc) brother in law (Mataan) and countless other main characters in Futuh were all Somalis and linked by blood as proven by both heavyweight Harari and Amhara scholars. Back in the days of Futuh the word Somali was most likely used specifically for the nomads which is where the confusion stems from.
I just read this paper, it's very good. This is why it's important for Somalis to re-evaluate certain narratives. Maqrizi claiming Amharas reached Zeila is just nonsense.
Idilinaa
VIP
I was reading through Harari family names. Unlike somalis they get their family name based on a pious ancestor and everyone. For example the Imam family are descendants of Imam Ahmed Gurey. Here are some family names I found to be very somali:
Barkhadle (very common somali name used till today and is one of the older somali names)
Barre (older somalis used this name often like former dictator of somalia Siyad Barre),
Borama (a city in northern somalia)
Duale (another somali name it means the one who makes dua),
fudi gelle (it's the gelle part specifically not fudi which meansin gey sinan. So their family name means geel
)
Garad (both hararis and somalis use garad)
Liban (this is also somali meaning blessed)
Muqdish(sounds like muqdisho/mogadishu)
Sarkal (means lieutenant in somali)
Ugaz (the somali ugas elders)
War gar (means receive message)
Warfa (many somali clans are named warfa)
Yare (means small in somali)
Note that this is around a good 25%-35% of the harari family names. I would be interested in getting DNA samples from all families to see if they're related to somalis. And to add in many of the family names sounded oromo so I believe they might also have oromo admixture.
Looking back at this with what we now know , It’s not surprising that so many Harari family names trace back to Somali roots when you consider who held power in Harar historically and made up the majority of the original pop.
The political leadership of the city including the various Malaqs who ruled different quarters were Somali. Many of the Emirs themselves had Somali lineage or close ties with Somali clans.
Even the chief religious figures (like the leading Kabirs and Shaykhs) were Somali.
So when you see names like Barre, Borama, Liban, Garad, Warfa, Yare, and remembered by Harari , it reflects that intertwined history , not coincidence
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The political leadership of the city including the various Malaqs who ruled different quarters were Somali. Many of the Emirs themselves had Somali lineage or close ties with Somali clans.
Idilinaa
VIP
All the clans surrounding Harar had segments represented within the city including the Marehan.
So it’s very possible that more Marehan individuals will be discovered in historical records, just like we’ve already seen with members of the Habar Awal, Hawiye, Sheekhal, Bartiree, and Dir clans, who were living in, governing, or owning property in Harar.
I also recall reading civil status documents mentioning a section of the Ciise clan in Harar, known as the Sayhas , a priestly sub-clan.
No, most of the Kabirs and Shaykhs weren’t Somali. Kabir Khalil and Kabir Yunis were both 100% Harari. The Shaykh Jami mentioned in that snippet you saw was actually a Somali who lived in Harar. In the 1800s, there were some Somalis—mainly from the Darod and Isaaq clans—living in Harar. Shaykh Jami, a Bartire Somali, was one of Kabir Khalil’s students.
To be clear, Kabir Khalil wasn’t Somali at all. He came from the Zaydi family in Harar, which has no Somali ties whatsoever.
Another well-known Somali who studied under Kabir Khalil was Shaykh Madar from the Isaaq clan. He lived in Harar for a while and learned from Kabir Khalil before being advised to travel to what is now Hargeisa to teach proper Islam, as wahabi ideology was starting to enter Somalia. In fact, it was Shaykh Madar who named Hargeisa after Harar.
Yeah, it’s true that the Emirs of Harar married Somali women, especially from well-known clans like the Gerri, Bartire, Marehan, and some Isaaq groups. These marriages were mostly done to build stronger ties with Somali tribes.
But Harari Emirs also married Harari women. For example, Imam Ahmad (Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi) was Harari, and his wife, Bati Del Wambara, was Harari too. After Imam Ahmad passed away, Amir Nur ended up marrying her as well. Amir Nur himself had mixed roots—his dad or grandfather was said to be from the Darod Marehan clan, while his mother was Harari.
As for Amir Abdullahi—wallahi, I really don’t know. Some Oromos say he was Oromo, some Somalis say he was Somali. What I’ve heard is that he was from a Harari family called “Moti,” but honestly, that’s just word of mouth and hasn’t been properly verified. I don’t even know the full backstory of the Moti family. Some people also say he came from the Harari “Nur” family, tracing back to Amir Nur. Allah knows best. To be honest, I never really looked deep into it—it just wasn’t something I was that curious about.
No, the Adal Sultanate was Harari—this is a fact. Some Somalis think it was Somali because the Sultanate had assimilated many Hararis, who were formerly known as the Harla. That’s where the confusion comes from. Somalis had their own sultanates, but the Adal Sultanate itself was Harari.
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Idilinaa
VIP
There was also a presence of Hawiye in Harar. Burton notes that the Qadi of Zayla during his visit was a Hawiye originally from Harar
Beyond Darod and Isaaq, several Gadabursi and Ciise families are documented as owning property and residing in Harar, passing those estates down generationally. The Sheekhal clan was also present, with some members serving as scribes. So the Somali presence in Harar was more diverse than just two clans.
Regarding the Kabirs, Burton himself didn’t meet them, he wrote that they didn’t leave their homes so he couldn’t speak to their identity. According to Hornaristocrat, both Kabir Khalil and Kabir Yunis were from the Isaaq clan family, specifically Kabir Yunis being from the Habar Yunis sub-clan.
This would make sense given the influence of Isaaq in the region, especially considering Berbera was Harar’s chief port and largely under Isaaq control. Manuscripts even show that a Habar Awal one of the Malaqs governing the neigborhoods of Harar.
That said, the Kabirs were not a monolith , multiple individuals are recorded as manuscript copyists and scholars in Harar, some of whom may have been from different backgrounds.
The Amirs of Harar followed Somali exogamy traditions basically, marrying into other clans to build political alliances. Somali sultanates like the Majerteen did the same thing by marrying into Dir and other clans to strengthen their legitimacy. So if the Amirs were marrying Somali women and their kids were born from those unions, it makes sense that their descendants would be considered Somali too. On top of that, we’ve got at least three different sources saying the Amirs were Somali including someone who actually lived in Harar so that definitely supports the claim
About identity ‘al-Harari’ wasn’t an ethnicity, it was just a label/nisba for someone who came from Harar. It didn’t mean they were part of a specific ethnic or language group. In fact the name ‘Harar’ itself comes from Somali, based on a type of thorny tree used in fencing, which is still a thing in Somali culture and place names.
Also, saying the Adal Sultanate was purely ‘Harari’ doesn’t really hold up. The people we call Harari today speak a language related to East Gurage, originally known as ''Adari" and weren't fully accepted as part of the city inhabitants until the 1800s and they emigrated there after fleeing Oromo expansion. You don’t see a group called Harari mentioned in older historical texts. As for the Harla who are often claimed to be the Harari’s ancestors they still exist in different areas and weren’t even based in Harar, they are simply a kombe clan.
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Where’s your second picture from? It doesn’t say he was Somali, and there’s really no indication that he was.
I’m not fully sure about his personal background—maybe his father lived in Berbera for a while. As you probably know, Hararis didn’t always stay in Harar. Many traveled or settled in different places over time either for short or permanent time.
I’ve personally met family members of Kabir Khalil, and they come from the Zaydi family—sharifs with genealogical ties to Yemen. I’m 100% sure he was Harari. Kabir Yonis was also Harari—Richard Burton even confirms this. Both of them were pious men, and like many scholars of their kind, they only left their homes when there was a real need.
Burton clearly notes that they taught from their homes, used the Harari language, and were separate from Shaykh Jami, whom he specifically identified as Somali. Although Burton met both Kabirs, his actual communication with them was limited. Most of his interaction was with Shaykh Jami, likely because Jami was more involved in regional politics.
Shaykh Jami was no doubt knowledgeable, but he had a more political role, which set him apart from the more reclusive Kabirs. Also, it’s important to note that only Hararis use the title "Kabir." That’s a strong cultural marker. Both Hararis and Somalis use "Shaykh," but in the Harari context, "Kabir" refers to a top-tier scholar—someone seen as a saint. Kabir Khalil was even known for performing extraordinary acts, which is one reason he carried the title.
Brother, you seem like a reasonable person, and I hope you understand where I’m coming from. Kabir Khalil and Kabir Yonis lived just about 150 years ago, and yet now there are claims that they were Somali? That’s worrying. If we’re already getting things mixed up with figures from the recent past, how are we supposed to make sense of history from 800 or 1,000 years ago?
To be honest, I’ve only come across a handful of Somalis who are truly honest when it comes to history. For example, I had a Somali man from the Darod clan tell me that Shaykh Abadir was Marehan Darod, and that all Hararis and most Oromos are Darod and all Harari amirs were Darod Marehan. That’s just not grounded in fact—it’s ridiculous. Another Somali girl from the Dir (Samaroon) clan claimed that Amir Nur was a Dir. These kinds of claims vary so much, even among Somalis themselves, and that creates a lot of confusion. You seem like a good guy, but I’ve learned I can’t just take Somali claims at face value—I have to do my own research, or our history ends up being claimed by others.
I will clarify though Amir Nur was Marehan Darod. Imam Ahmad was a Harari. As for Shaykh Abadir he was an Arab his lineage going back to Abu Bakr. He was not Darod.
And just to make it crystal clear: Kabir Khalil was not from the Ishaaq clan. I’m 100,000% sure of that. Yes, some Harari families may have genoligical ties to the Shaykh Ishaaq, but not these two—not Kabir Khalil, especially.
You're right that some Shaykhaal, Darod, and Ishaaq individuals did live in Harar. But let’s not exaggerate—not all sub-clans from each were present. Only a few. There were small numbers of Hawiye and Dir too. Harar was still overwhelmingly Harari, and that’s an important fact that shouldn’t be erased.
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Barkhadle1520
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Most of these clans didnt leave in the city if their garaad didnt have ties with the emir, those who lived around the city had small caarish villages that menelik destroyed
Idilinaa
VIP
How could Kabir Khalil not be Somali if he was from Berbera and taught Somali students from his own clan? And just to clarify. Burton never met the Kabirs directly. He only interacted with Shaykh Jami, who invited him to his home and showed him his library. The stuff about the Kabirs teaching in Harari or using the Harari language isn't something Burton actually confirmed he even said they didn’t leave their homes.
Also, the idea that Imam Ahmad was Harari or that Darod are Harari is honestly a bit much lmaaoo. Harari wasn't even an ethnicity back then. Later we know it was a nisba, just a label for someone who came from Harar, not a distinct ethnic identity.
You mentioned Samaroon claiming Amir Nur? But then turned around and said Harari families have genealogical links to Sheikh Isaaq? So how are Somali claims the problem here?
And let’s not forget: before the 19th century, there’s not a single historical text that refers to ‘Harari’ as a distinct ethnic group. In fact, the earliest examples literally describe the people of Harar as Somalis.
Even Rochet d’Héricourt, the French explorer, said the representative of the Amir of Harar told him directly: ‘The Hararis belong to the Somali race.’ That’s straight from the Amir’s own envoy. So if that’s what they were saying at the time, how is it being rewritten now?
'''The information i have gathered concerning the town and its curious inhabitants was given to me by the representative who Emir of Harar sent to the King of Shoa.... The Hararis belong to the Somali race"
Correct , also clans who lived around the city lived in agricultural villages where they cultivated coffee and other stuff that city the sold or lived on. They were connected to the town either through production or trade.
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Okay, now we’re just talking nonsense — saying there’s no historical evidence of Hararis being their own ethnic group before the 19th century is just not true. I’m going to stop entertaining that idea right here.
Anyway, I know the family of Kabir Khalil personally, so I’m not just making things up. I wouldn’t lie about something like this.
The real problem here is that you're trying to rewrite our history and claim it as your own — and that’s not okay.
When I say "Harari" in reference to people before the 16th century, I’m talking about the original Hararis — the Harla people.
As for Kabir Khalil, I honestly can’t take your claim seriously that he was Somali. He was Harari, full stop..... We know his background, his parents, his children, and even his grandchildren. There’s no confusion about who he was.
Sure, "MAYBE" he lived in Berbera for a while, or taught there. That wouldn’t be surprising. Big scholars didn’t stay in one place — they traveled in their youth, taught in different cities, and spread Islamic knowledge. Then later in life, they’d usually settle down back home. Kabir Khalil was no exception. Lots of Harari scholars did the same.
And do you even know where Kabir Khalil is buried? Right outside the tomb of Shaykh Abadir. His family, his name, and his ethnicity are all well known. If you’re really interested, go visit the site and ask the caretaker of his tomb who he was — you’ll get your answer.
Do you know where his grand child is buried (he is also a big scholar)? I won't answer that since you lack knowledge. Hararis know his grandchild very very well.
I’ll leave it at that. I’m not even going to get into the whole debate about Imam Ahmad and Amir Nur — this is already getting ridiculous.
Especially if your claiming a man from the late 1800's. For sure we cannot agree on anything past this time. Your not being honest.
The Harla people even in the Futuh are recognized as a Somali clan. Enrico Cerulli also got the genealogy of 3 Harla's who all claimed that Harla is a Somali sub clan of Darood. Harari were a refugee Habesha population who fled from East Gurarge because of Oromo incursions into the Somali city of Harar, the ethnoym for them was Adari before they insisitently changed their ethnoym to Harari out of shame of there lowly status. That is also evident when Richard Burton and other European explorers beforehand visited the city and examined the cities population which was almost all Somali aside for your little minority subset we owned the crossroads between Harar and Berbera as well as all commodities coming in and out of the city.
You can keep coping though but sooner or later you gotta accept the reality and not whatever Ethio Semitic we wuzzery nonsense they propagate to the mainstream, all primary evidence point directly to Somali leadership and kinship in the city. And claiming Harla ancestry is just disrespectful to this Somali sub clan Wallahi
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Idilinaa
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Even the text you showed right there supports Isaaqs trade influence over the town and how they studied there.
Habar Awal controlled Berbera so it wouldn't be strange that Kabir Khalil was one, Burton also mentions them living around the hills of Harar among other clans and it's not even suprising when Malaq Abdal who was one of the governors inside the city was Habar Awal as his nisba indicated.
It says:
Historians have attempted to view these medieval populations as the "common ancestors" of both the modern Harari and Argobba or have considered that the groups integrated into Bar Sa'ad ad-Din were primarily Sidama. This theory, proposed by Enrico Cerulli, lacks any solid foundation. As for the Harari, the present-day inhabitants of Harar who speak their own distinct language, their connection to the city's residents in the 16th century has yet to be demonstrated and remains highly problematic
The debating Harla's identity in relation to Harar is pretty pointless because there is nothing as far as we know that connects to them to Harar much less to modern day Hararis , nor do we even have reference to them living there.
We have historical reference to them living in further north around Awsa and South East of Harar.
What's disrespectful is actually them being mythologized as some legendary group and made out to be extinct or assimilated when they still currently exist and they were just a simple agro-pastoral clan this entire time with their own place in the regional story that's unfortunately been misrepresented.
