Hamza Yusuf Teaching... What Appears to be Shirk

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Omar del Sur, Sep 22, 2019.

  1. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    Hamza Yusuf exposed Sufi aqeeda 52sec



    I'm not any kind of scholar...... am I saying this is shirk? I'm not one hundred percent sure, I don't feel qualified to say "absolutely yes, this is shirk"...... but I do feel I can rightfully say "umm.... I'm pretty sure this is shirk"......

    I mean if anyone can explain how this isn't shirk......... they're free to come and explain how this isn't shirk and it just seems like it's shirk

    I encourage you to come listen to this super-brief clip, decide for yourself on whether this is shirk..... and then I encourage you to never listen to any of this guy's stuff again

    I know there are certain things where you can have disagreements among scholars..... but this isn't even debateable.... this, what he is teaching.... I do not believe this is Islam..... I'm not making takfir.... but this seems like he's teaching a person to pray to Muhammad (peace be upon him) and it does appear to be kufr

    all this text is just my thoughts but I would like those reading to watch the video and form your own conclusions...... stay away from this guy... if you think what he's teaching here is cool and I'm ISIS for not being okay with it..... are you also cool with worshipping graves? it doesn't seem that different

    EDIT:

    "With regard to calling upon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and asking him directly, this is the essence of shirk which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was sent to forbid and to fight against its people. For more details on the ruling on that, see Question no. 10289, 11402, 1439. We ask Allaah to bring the Muslims back to the right path. And Allaah knows best. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon his Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions."

    https://islamqa.info/en/answers/215...ose-who-call-upon-him-when-he-is-in-his-grave
     
  2. Inquisitive_

    Inquisitive_ VIP

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    What you posted and the clip you presented are two different things.

    There is nothing of shirk in his speech unless you have a disease in your heart, he didn't even talk about istigatha upon the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him which is what the link you posted deals with.

    I advice you stay away from this type of thing or any group that teaches they are the saved sect or any group that calls other Muslims deviants by misrepresenting and misconstruing their words.

    These people are the agents of Shaytaan, and the thing you find most common with them is there love and admiration for tyrannical Muslim regimes which they callously and shamelessly defend.

    Stay away from this gutter race to the bottom type of sick twisted ideology.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  3. Lum

    Lum

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    Shcolars like Shaykh Fawzan have already clearly warned against this misguided group.
     
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  4. Lum

    Lum

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    Prophet (sallallaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam).
     
  5. Lum

    Lum

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    Haven`t wathced the video. Watched it.
     
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  6. Lum

    Lum

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    Did any scholars preedce you in this?
     
  7. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    verbatin from what he said (except what's in the brackets, which I added): "and then you speak to your Prophet [peace be upon him] directly"

    verbatim from what I quoted: "With regard to calling upon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and asking him directly, this is the essence of shirk which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was sent to forbid and to fight against its people. For more details on the ruling on that, see Question no. 10289, 11402, 1439. We ask Allaah to bring the Muslims back to the right path. And Allaah knows best. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon his Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions."

    and then the full IslamQA link deals with the issue which is clearly being addressed:

    Can the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) hear those who call upon him when he is in his grave?

    https://islamqa.info/en/answers/215...ose-who-call-upon-him-when-he-is-in-his-grave

    is he teaching to pray to the Prophet (peace be upon him)? Is he only saying that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) can hear us in the grave?

    either way, whatever this is........ it's pretty bad....

    You're free to believe whatever you want... but I believe in monotheism and I don't view "don't pray to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)" as a "sick twisted ideology"
     
  8. Lum

    Lum

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    Tawheed, and cleansing oneself from shirk and bidah is important.
     
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  9. Cigaal

    Cigaal

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    As @Inquisitive_ said this video isn’t talking about istighatha as you incorrectly assumed but rather a Hadith that our good deeds are presented to the prophet ﷺ who will praise Allah and our bad deeds are also presented to him ﷺ who will seek forgiveness on our behalf.

    ‘My life is a great good for you, you will relate about me and it will be related to you. And my death is a great good for you, your actions will be presented to me: if I see good I will praise Allah and if I see evil I will seek forgiveness of Him for you.’ Al-Bazzar, Musnad, no.845.

    I’m not here to argue the authenticity of this Hadith but merely that Shaykh Hamza Yusuf did not commit shirk but was referencing this Hadith. Please be careful when it comes to accusing people of shirk.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
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  10. TekNiKo

    TekNiKo VIP

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    This is a misconstrued by certain sinister groups to discredit this great sheikh. You are technically calling him a mushrik for preaching shirk which is absolute false. Stop backbiting the scholars
     
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  11. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    As I already said

    "is he teaching to pray to the Prophet (peace be upon him)? Is he only saying that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) can hear us in the grave?

    either way, whatever this is........ it's pretty bad...."

    Can the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) hear those who call upon him when he is in his grave?

    https://islamqa.info/en/answers/215...ose-who-call-upon-him-when-he-is-in-his-grave

    verbatin from what he said (except what's in the brackets, which I added): "and then you speak to your Prophet [peace be upon him] directly"

    verbatim from what I quoted: "With regard to calling upon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and asking him directly, this is the essence of shirk which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was sent to forbid and to fight against its people. For more details on the ruling on that, see Question no. 10289, 11402, 1439. We ask Allaah to bring the Muslims back to the right path. And Allaah knows best. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon his Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions."
     
  12. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    Is that Hamza Yusuf in your avatar? You consider Hamza Yusuf as one of the scholars?

    Would you happen to be a Sufi? I ask because maybe you yourself are a Sufi and a follower of Hamza Yusuf (to the extent that you have a Hamza Yusuf avatar), so you're not being entirely objective.

    Do you believe that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) can hear us in the grave? Can we have a conversation with him while he is in the grave? If we call upon Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and we talk to him about our day and what's on our minds, can he hear us?



    As for Hamza Yusuf..... "When Sheik Hamza Yusuf was summoned to the White House after the World Trade Center attack, he brought President George W. Bush two books. The first was a Qur'an, bristling with Post-It notes marking key verses. The second was "Thunder in the Sky," a book on the art of war by a first-century Chinese Taoist.... Among young Western progressive Muslims, he's fast becoming the most prominent Islamic cleric of his generation."

    https://www.newsweek.com/muslim-moderator-144091

    I mean.... so apparently this was the guy they chose to send to the White House to meet with George Bush........ that's who you want to follow?

    The man who advised Bush


    LONDON: A few days ago, for reasons that remain rather unclear, the FBI decided to pay a call on the home of Hamza Yusuf. “He isn’t home,” said his wife. ;He’s with the president.;....Then, after joining in with God Save America, Yusuf stood outside the White house..."

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1021

    so this guy's hanging out at the White House with George Bush, singing "God Save America".........'

    'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/08/religion.uk

    denouncing those West-haters.......

    It's time for Muslim Americans to condemn Hamza Yusuf

    https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/o...cans-condemn-hamza-yusuf-190715130254222.html

    "Hamza Yusuf, once dubbed the most 'influential Muslim scholar in the Western world'".... just that is enough that I would want to stay away from him

    "In September 2001, shortly after the terror attacks on the US, he was the sole Muslim representative in a delegation of religious leaders who met President George W Bush and endorsed his decision to launch a military campaign against terrorism - ie, his "war on terror".

    wow so he wasn't even in one in a set of Muslims..... he was the Muslim chose to meet with Bush..... wow.......

    "When Trump was elected president in 2016, following a divisive, Islamophobic, misogynistic and racist election campaign, Yusuf discouraged people from protesting against an administration that was elected on a promise to erode the rights of the most vulnerable.

    'We have too much work to do, not protesting, not lighting fires, not saying, 'Trump is not my president,'" he wrote on his website in November 2016. 'He is, and that is how our system works: by accepting the results and moving on.'

    .......

    "Then, a month later, black Muslims came face to face with Yusuf's misplaced loyalties, when he declared at a conference that the US is "one of the least racist countries" and tried to use the racist trope of 'black-on-black crime' to convince Muslims not to join forces with the Black Lives Matter movement."

    .........

    "Last week, Secretary of State and top Islamophobe Mike Pompeo announced the formation of the Commission on Unalienable Rights... it was announced that Yusuf will also be a member of the commission."

    what kind of vague nonsense is that- Commission on Unalienable Rights??????? what a ridiculous, propaganda-sounding name........ but anyways..... they make their Commission on Unalienable Rights, whatever that means, announced by anti-Muslim Zionist Mike Pompeo...... and Hamza Yusuf gets invited........


    look, man I'm not against white people simply for being white people....... but the majority of the human race have very good reasons to be a little wary when it comes to white people in general...... if we have a Muslim brother who just happens to be white but doesn't have the negative qualities often found when dealing with white people, who is concerned with non-white people just as he is concerned with white people and who doesn't have a superiority complex and a thinly-veiled desire to be some sort of colonial overlord and force Western ideals on brown people... okay..... but this guy seems like.... well I mean he just seems like..... kind of what I expect from white people...... I mean, we shouldn't just be against someone simply for being white..... but... he's a white guy.... who just happens to think racism isn't an issue........ I mean...... we should be careful when it comes to.... certain white people..... and by "certain white people" I mean the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast,vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of white people
     
  13. Cigaal

    Cigaal

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    He is not teaching to pray to the prophet ﷺ but saying the salawat is simply relayed to the prophet ﷺ ‘My life is a great good for you, you will relate about me and it will be related to you. And my death is a great good for you, your actions will be presented to me: if I see good I will praise Allah and if I see evil I will seek forgiveness of Him for you.’ Al-Bazzar, Musnad, no.845

    This is also corroborated from the following
    Abu Dawood related in his Sunan from Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (may Allah bless him and give him peace) said ‘No-one greets me except that Allah returns my soul to me, so that I may return his greeting.’

    As for your quote you haven’t quoted him fully he says after quoting the part of the tashahhud “...and you understand that there is a spiritual presence “ and immediately quotes the Hadith of the prophet ﷺbeing presented with our actions in his blessed grave. What the shaykh means by spiritual presence is the fact that the prophet is presented with our actions in his grave so it is like he’s spiritually present because it is relayed to him but of course he isn't physically present with us too see our actions.

    As for the links you have sent they they are talking about going to the prophet’s grave and directly asking him for help for things that should be sought for from Allah most high. The video is merely talking about the salawat in the tashahhud being conveyed to the prophetﷺ in his grave and using the Hadith I mentioned above as evidence. You can disagree with it but by no means is it shirk.
     
  14. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    This is blatantly false and blatantly a misrepresentation. The link is not talking about going to the grave of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). You are not being truthful with the facts.

    Furthermore, the fatwa clearly explains that the salaam reaches Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) but Prophet Muhamad (peace be upon him) cannot hear those who call upon him. If you're thinking Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is there in a presence, spiritual or physical and can hear you talking to him, this is false.

    Furthermore, you keep misrepresenting my position as though I am definitively saying that what Hamza Yusuf is teaching is shirk.

    As I already said

    "is he teaching to pray to the Prophet (peace be upon him)? Is he only saying that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) can hear us in the grave?

    either way, whatever this is........ it's pretty bad...."


    verbatin from what he said (except what's in the brackets, which I added): "and then you speak to your Prophet [peace be upon him] directly"

    I mean... that is crazy to defend that.... are we practicing Islam or Catholicism?... that is clearly not okay... there is no logical gymnastics or misrepresenting my position that can make it okay

    "“...and you understand that there is a spiritual presence “ and immediately quotes the Hadith of the prophet ﷺbeing presented with our actions in his blessed grave. What the shaykh means by spiritual presence is the fact that the prophet is presented with our actions in his grave so it is like he’s spiritually present because it is relayed to him but of course he isn't physically present with us too see our actions."

    do you know Hamza Yusuf's position better than Hamza Yusuf? the man said even according to you yourself said "there is a spiritual presence"

    you go and you say I didn't quote the whole thing.... you add that part.... that part makes it even worse!!!

    He didn't say "it is like he's spiritually present"..... he said "there is a spiritual presence"

    If I read a book by Sheikh Ibn Baz and I'm reading their words and I'm like "wow.... it's like Sheikh Ibn Baz is here with me"...... that's very different than reading a book by Sheikh Ibn Baz and saying "Sheikh Ibn Baz is spiritually present" in some sort of ghost-like sense.... from what he is saying, you can call upon Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is present in some sort of ghost-like sense.... he didn't say "it's like he's spiritually present".... this is only one of multiple instances where you are misrepresenting things

    Can the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) hear those who call upon him when he is in his grave?


    the character limit won't let me post the full fatwa but the fatwa is not talking about going to the grave of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).... the fatwa is directly talking about what Hamza Yusuf is claiming and directly refuting it

    https://islamqa.info/en/answers/215...ose-who-call-upon-him-when-he-is-in-his-grave

    you are defending what is deviant and attacking me for warning against what is deviant.... God is my witness
     
  15. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    More info on Hamza Yusuf



    also, just to cite an excellent point that was made.....

    "When it came to Hamza Yusuf, many were wondering why he would choose to join a Trump commission. What factors went into his choice?

    But others were asking a deeper question. Out of all the imams, scholars, and Muslim religious figures, why did this Trump commission choose Hamza Yusuf?"


    https://muslimskeptic.com/2019/07/2...eiman-the-perils-of-american-muslim-politics/
     
  16. Cigaal

    Cigaal

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    >This is blatantly false and blatantly a misrepresentation. The link is not talking about going to the grave of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). You are not being truthful with the facts.

    I was referring to the last paragraph “With regard to calling upon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and asking him directly, this is the essence of shirk which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was sent to forbid and to fight against its people”
    I concede that it’s not talking about going to his grave and asking him ﷺ directly but doing it in general. This still isn't what Hamza yusuf was talking about which is the salawat being CONVEYED to the prophet ﷺ not that the prophet ﷺ physically hears our salams.

    >Furthermore, the fatwa clearly explains that the salaam reaches Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) but Prophet Muhamad (peace be upon him) cannot hear those who call upon him. If you're thinking Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is there in a presence, spiritual or physical and can hear you talking to him, this is false.

    Again Hamza Yusuf is talking about the salam being relayed or conveyed to the prophet. Not that the prophet can hear it as if he’s present with us. As the article you link says “Rather it is proven that the only thing that reaches him (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the blessings and salaams of those who send blessings and salaams upon him.” This is also what Hamza yusuf is trying to say and he quotes another Hadith stating the our actions are presented (I.e conveyed) to the prophet ﷺ

    >Furthermore, you keep misrepresenting my position as though I am definitively saying that what Hamza Yusuf is teaching is shirk.

    All I’m saying is that Hamza yusuf didn’t commit shirk and be careful when it comes to accusing people of shirk. I haven’t accused you of saying he committed shirk. You said for others to come and explain why it isn’t shirk if it isn’t the case.

    >"“...and you understand that there is a spiritual presence “ and immediately quotes the Hadith of the prophet ﷺbeing presented with our actions in his blessed grave. What the shaykh means by spiritual presence is the fact that the prophet is presented with our actions in his grave so it is like he’s spiritually present because it is relayed to him but of course he isn't physically present with us too see our actions."

    do you know Hamza Yusuf's position better than Hamza Yusuf? the man said even according to you yourself said "there is a spiritual presence"

    you go and you say I didn't quote the whole thing.... you add that part.... that part makes it even worse!!!

    He didn't say "it is like he's spiritually present"..... he said "there is a spiritual presence"


    I admit I didn’t explain that in the most simple and clear way. To clarify
    Authentic hadiths (such as the one I quoted before) establish that Allah makes the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) aware of the actions of his community Thus, it is ‘as if’ he were present through his knowing the actions of his community.

    >If I read a book by Sheikh Ibn Baz and I'm reading their words and I'm like "wow.... it's like Sheikh Ibn Baz is here with me"...... that's very different than reading a book by Sheikh Ibn Baz and saying "Sheikh Ibn Baz is spiritually present" in some sort of ghost-like sense.... from what he is saying, you can call upon Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is present in some sort of ghost-like sense.... he didn't say "it's like he's spiritually present".... this is only one of multiple instances where you are misrepresenting things

    False analogy. The case of Hamza yusuf is referring to the fact Allah allows for our actions (I.e deeds) to be conveyed or presented to the prophet. Such privilege was only given to the prophet. And Hamza yusuf isn’t talking about calling upon the prophetﷺ but sending Salam during the tashahhud. When we recite the tashahhud we say “asalamu alayka ayyuha nabi” meaning Peace be upon you, O Prophet. When phrasing like that it is direct because the salam is being conveyed (via angels) to the prophetﷺ. Calling upon the prophet would be to directly ask him for help not salawat being relayed to the prophet.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  17. Cigaal

    Cigaal

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    I disagree with his political opinion especially recently. I’m only arguing he didn’t commit shirk in the video.
     
  18. Omar del Sur

    Omar del Sur

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    You've made it pretty clear that you're pro-Sufi, perhaps even a Sufi yourself. You just made a thread openly promoting Sufism: https://www.somalispot.com/threads/...ism-spiritual-wayfaring-by-abu-aaliyah.66773/

    You start the thread with: "Far from being foreign to Islam, sufism – the science of spiritual excellence (‘ilm al-ihsan) and purification of the soul (tazkiyat al-nafs) – is a central aspect of the religion. In fact, it is its very core or heart."

    So it's very clear that you are in favor of Sufism. In fact, Sufism "is a central aspect of the religion" according to you.

    I'm not really into lengthy back-and-forth disputes. You're free to your beliefs, I'm free to mine and I think both of us have made our positions pretty clear.
     
  19. Cigaal

    Cigaal

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    Yes you are right it’s best we leave it at that
     
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  20. Libaaxseendheer

    Libaaxseendheer Guul ama geeri

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    Warya the prophet muhammad is the most laandheere creature, all 100,000 rasuls were from the loins of noah. Moses the laandheere semite and jesus were all the pinnacle of creation. I can see through you envious dhegaacas kalabyahow laangaab ah.


     
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