HISTORY Gibil-Madow Benadiris

[Shimbiris]

I saw recently that @Jacko made this post:

Before Italians came to Mogadishu, it only consisted of 2 districts: Xamar Weyne (literally old Xamar) and Shangani, those neighbourhoods were almost entirely Benadiri or Arab. Italians planned and built the rest.

Italian census for their territories, look at page 44 of the pdf

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What he doesn't seem to realize and I think a majority of you on here oddly don't know is that not all Benadiris are cadcads. The majority were historically "Gibil-Madow" Benadiris who were basically indistinguishable from other Somalis. These include Benadiri tribes like the Moorshe, Iskashato, Bandawoow and Dhabarweyne who basically look like this. As far as I know, the Asharaaf and Reer Maanyo are not counted among them but are basically the same and looked like this and this respectively. These groups together made up the majority of Benadiris and faced much less discrimination during the civil war era due to their appearance when compared to Gibil-Cads like Shanshiyos:

According to representatives from Shansiye interviewed by Landinfo in Nairobi in September 2005, the socalled dark-skinned Benadiris, i.e. Moorshe, Bandawow and Dhabarweyne, were protected by their Somali neighbours because they were dark-skinned (and presumed to be more native Somali), while most of the lightskinned Benadiris had fled at the beginning of the civil war (1991-1992). - Source
​

As far as I know the Gibil-Madows are thought to originally be of origins like Ajuuraan and Raxanweyn and are, as the local traditions maintain, Xamar's equivalent to the Tunni of Barawe whom that town's founding tradition holds were the original inhabitants who accepted foreign settlers and founded the medieval predecessor of the town with them. It's even interesting that Reer Asharaaf's dialect is supposedly about as divergent from Af-Maxaa (variety of dialects spoken historically by Dir, Isaaq, Darood and Hawiye) as Af-Maay which tells you that there were seemingly several pre-Hawiye-Darood "Soomaali group" speakers in the south like Maay folk, Asharaafs, Tunnis and Jiddus:

Source
​

These were probably the sorts of folks alongside the Hawiye and Ajuuraan (depending on whether you want to count the latter among the Hawiye) who were the "Berbers" (Somalis) authors like Ibn Battuta describe during the 1300s and claimed they kept many camels and sheep and were a dark-skinned people living from Zeila down to the vicinity of Xamar and Marka.

But anyway, once you know all this and you look at the document Jacko is referring to regarding Xamar's demographics:

​

You will realize that Gibil-Madow Benadiris alongside Asharaaf and Reer Maanyo made up the majority of Benadiris like sources such as this one assert:

Moorshe: 685
Bandawoow: 1,250
Iskashato: 920
Dhabarweyne: 1,137
Asharaaf: 600
Reer Maanyo: 555

Total: 5,147

Vs.

The groups one can tell for sure are Gibil-Cad Benadiris:

Reer Faqi: 340
Ba Fadal: 580
Amudi: 670
Reer Shaykh Saddex Geedi: 650

Total: 2,240

I'm not sure about "Mursulo" and "Gesira" but even with them counted as Gibil-Cad the Gibil-Madow outnumber them. And once you count the non-Benadiri Somalis (1,430) who were probably of tribes like the Abgaal whom we know were present in districts like Shingani and among the elite with the Gibil-Madow, the total essentially "Somali" population is 6,577 which amounts to 60% of the town's 10,959 population once you discount the "indigenous" troops whose ethnic makeup we don't entirely know. The Gibil-Cads amount to 20% of the population and it should be noted that they are not actually of entirely foreign origins and virtually all so far tested Gibil-Cad Benadiris keep showing significant (25-40%) Somali admixture alongside Y-DNA markers like E-V32 popping up at times with the rest of the ancestry seeming to be Desi, MENA, Central Asian and Bantu. Basically the result of foreign settlers intermixing with Somalis. Confirmed foreigners like Arabs (970) and Indians (190) only amounted to 10% of the population in that above document.

There's a reason the historical images we have of Xamar around this period make it look pretty majority Somali:



It's because it was. At any rate, I don't think Jacko had any intention of misleading people. The saxiib clearly just didn't know this about Benadiris or the history of the city so not really anything against him here. Just don't like people being mislead hence a whole thread on this subject. Hope that was an interesting read, saxiibs.

 

[Aurelian]

Wallahi these pseudo historians claim that Mogadishu was found in 12 or 15 centuries is unbelievable

 

[Juke]

You will realize that Gibil-Madow Benadiris alongside Asharaaf and Reer Maanyo made up the majority of Benadiris like sources such as this one assert:

Moorshe: 685
Bandawoow: 1,250
Iskashato: 920
Dhabarweyne: 1,137
Asharaaf: 600
Reer Maanyo: 555

Total: 5,147

Vs.

The groups one can tell for sure are Gibil-Cad Benadiris:

Reer Faqi: 340
Ba Fadal: 580
Amudi: 670
Reer Shaykh Saddex Geedi: 650

Total: 2,240

I'm not sure about "Mursulo" and "Gesira" but even with them counted as Gibil-Cad the Gibil-Madow outnumber them. And once you count the non-Benadiri Somalis (1,430) who were probably of tribes like the Abgaal whom we know were present in districts like Shingani and among the elite with the Gibil-Madow, the total essentially "Somali" population is 6,577 which amounts to 60% of the town's 10,959 population once you discount the "indigenous" troops whose ethnic makeup we don't entirely know. The Gibil-Cads amount to 20% of the population and it should be noted that they are not actually of entirely foreign origins and virtually all so far tested Gibil-Cad Benadiris keep showing significant (25-40%) Somali admixture alongside Y-DNA markers like E-V32 popping up at times with the rest of the ancestry seeming to be Desi, MENA, Central Asian and Bantu. Basically the result of foreign settlers intermixing with Somalis. Confirmed foreigners like Arabs (970) and Indians (190) only amounted to 10% of the population in that above document.

Yes, the census makes a distinction between gibil cad and gibil madow.

The ashraaf you counted among the gibil-madow are Arab Ba-Alawi and Mahdali types. That's 600 folks. Also mentions them being "ghibil at".

The census says the Scianscia group (that's categorized with the Dabarweyne) are of Arab origin, not exactly gibil madow. Of the 1137 we don't how much of the two constitute.

1737 from your 5147 estimate is dubious.

 

[Shimbiris]

Yes, the census makes a distinction between gibil cad and gibil madow.

The ashraaf you counted among the gibil-madow are Arab Ba-Alawi and Mahdali types. That's 600 folks. Also mentions them being "ghibil at".

...

The census says the Scianscia group (that's categorized with the Dabarweyne) are of Arab origin, not exactly gibil madow. Of the 1137 we don't which how much of the two constitute

Just to be clear, no one is actually "Arab". The DNA results on Gibil-Cad Benadiris is usually 25-40% Somali, 20% or so Indian, 5-10% Bantu with the remaining 30% or so being pretty dubious MENA stuff that could be anything from Egyptian to Iranian and not the outright Arabian stuff they tend to claim. Those "Arab" Ba-alawi types looks like this. You can clearly see this is a mixed community like the DNA results show. But fair enough on that and the Shanshiyo (I missed that they were being counted with Dhabarweyne) but even if you cut Dhabarweyne in half and remove the Asharaaf the numbers are:

Moorshe: 685
Bandawoow: 1,250
Iskashato: 920
Dhabarweyne: 568
Reer Maanyo: 555

Total: 3,978

Still more Gibil-Madow Benadiris with the Gibil-Cad being at about 3,408. Non-Benadiri Somali (1,430) add with the Gibil-Madow = 5,408 out of 10,659 which is still about 50% of the population with actual full on foreigners being no more than 10%. You still completely mislead people by claiming the city is mostly Arabs and non-Somalis. Are you going to own up to that like I owned up to what I missed?

 

[Juke]

Just to be clear, no one is actually "Arab". The DNA results on Gibil-Cad Benadiris is usually 25-40% Somali, 20% or so Indian, 5-10% Bantu with the remaining 30% or so being pretty dubious MENA stuff that could be anything from Egyptian to Iranian and not the outright Arabian stuff they tend to claim. Those "Arab" Ba-alawi types looks like this. You can clearly see this is a mixed community like the DNA results show. But fair enough on that and the Shanshiyo (I missed that they were being counted with Dhabarweyne) but even if you cut Dhabarweyne in half and remove the Asharaaf the numbers are:

Moorshe: 685
Bandawoow: 1,250
Iskashato: 920
Dhabarweyne: 568
Reer Maanyo: 555

Total: 3,978

Still more Gibil-Madow Benadiris with the Gibil-Cad being at about 3,408. Non-Benadiri Somali (1,430) add with the Gibil-Madow = 5,408 out of 10,659 which is still about 50% of the population with actual full on foreigners being no more than 10%. You still completely mislead people by claiming the city is mostly Arabs and non-Somalis. Are you going to own up to that like I owned up to what I missed?

Non-Benadiri Somali (1,430)

The census says those 1,430 are recent immigrants from Migiurtinia that fluctuate/come and go, such that it's hard to keep track of them.

The colonial troops included Arab mercenaries from Aden and Mukalla brought by Indian, Goan and Arab 'agents'.

The 'indigenous troops' consist of mixed Arab, Somali and Eritrean troops under officers.

The 3,978 estimate is still less than half of the total in the census. I've yet to see how they constituted the majority.

 

[Shimbiris]

The census says those 1,430 are recent immigrants from Migiurtinia that fluctuate/come and go. The census also says it's hard to keep track of them.

The troops included Arab mercenaries from Aden and Mukalla brought by Goan and Arab 'agents'.

The 'indigenous troops' consist of mixed Arab, Somali and Eritrean troops under officers.

The 3,978 estimate is still a minor % of the total total in the census.

You know I should have given this census a proper read instead of going off what I knew prior about some of these tribes from other sources because you know what else the census says, walaal? That only the following groups are Gibil-Cad or "Arab" in origin:

Shanshiyo: (568?)
Asharaaf: 600
Amudi: 670
Reer Faqi: 340

Total: 1,068 which is 9.7% of the population as an already mixed Somali+Foreign group.

None of the others are claimed to be Gibil-Cad or anything foreign in origin as far as I can see. In fact, the Seddax Geedi are explicitly pointed out to be Gibil-Madow whereas the Jacub are said to be Darandole and the Bafadal are called indigenous priests who are part of the Jacub whom they are dependent on. So, that means:

Jacub & Ba Fadal: 580
Reer Shaykh & Saddex Geedi: 650
Reer Maanyo: 555
Dhabarweyne: (568?)
Moorshe: 685
Bandawoow: 1,250
Iskashato: 920
Mursola: 730
Non-Benadiri Somalis: 1,430

Total: 7,368 which is 67% of the population. This actually makes even more sense with why Xamar appears so Somali in many images and accounts.

That's even higher than I thought before. Even if I'm generous and remove the more dubious groups like Mursola, Reer Shaykh, and even the Dhabarweyne whose exact numbers we can't know alongside the Saddex Geedi for the same reason that's still 5,420 people at 50% of the overall population and by far the single largest demographic in the city.

So again, do you admit that you mislead people by claiming the city was mostly Arabs (<10%) and basically Gibil-Cad who aren't even 100% foreign?

 

[Shimbiris]

@Jacko

Either I've missed something or you do have some fault to admit here for misleading people. The only Gibil-Cads according to the Italians in that census are:

Reer Faqi: 340
Shanshiyo: Unknown
Amudi: 670
Asharaaf: 600

Total: 1,610 which is 14.7% of the civilian population.

And I admit I made a mistake with the Asharaaf and assumed they were the other more clearly just Somali subset of them rather than the more mixed Gibil-Cad sort. However, I also made the mistake of counting the Saddex Geedi, Jacub and Ba Fadal as Gibil-Cads which they are not:

Then we know Moorshe, Dhabarweyne, Bandawoow and Iskashato are all traditional Gibil-Madow tribes whereas Mursola are Hawiye and I can't honestly tell with Reer Shaykh. Then we know what the Reer Maanyo are and when we count the "Immigrant Somalis" we get:

Jacub & Ba Fadal: 580
Moorshe: 685
Bandawoow: 1,250
Iskashato: 920
Mursola: 730
Reer Maanyo: 555
Immigrant Somalis: 1,430

Total: 6,150 which is 56% of the civilian population while Somalis amount to at least 1/3 of the military population. It's also obvious even when you discount the Hawiyes (Jacub & Mursola) and immigrant Somalis that the Gibil-Madow Benadiris (3,410) greatly outnumber the Gibil-Cads (1,610).

And this is while not counting Dhabarweyne and Saddex Geedi whom we know are Gibil-Madows. I'm being generous and discounting Dhabarweyne and Saddex Geedi because they are collated together in the census with Shanshiyos and Reer Shaykhs so we don't know the exact numbers even though the Italians tell us clearly the Reer Shaykh in particular are not numerous at all and therefore aren't likely to make up much of the collation between them and the Saddex Geedi which is 650 people:

So you told people in that thread that about 15% or so of the population and true Arabs who don't even amount to 10% of the population were the majority while a group (Somalis), who make up about 60% of the civilian population and are by far the largest demographic, were a minority. That's some serious misleading stuff if I've ever seen it. Or am I missing something?

 

[Shimbiris]

@Jacko

Either I've missed something or you do have some fault to admit here for misleading people. The only Gibil-Cads according to the Italians in that census are:

Reer Faqi: 340
Shanshiyo: Unknown
Amudi: 670
Asharaaf: 600

Total: 1,610 which is 14.7% of the civilian population.

And I admit I made a mistake with the Asharaaf and assumed they were the other more clearly just Somali subset of them rather than the more mixed Gibil-Cad sort. However, I also made the mistake of counting the Saddex Geedi, Jacub and Ba Fadal as Gibil-Cads which they are not:

Then we know Moorshe, Dhabarweyne, Bandawoow and Iskashato are all traditional Gibil-Madow tribes whereas Mursola are Hawiye and I can't honestly tell with Reer Shaykh. Then we know what the Reer Maanyo are and when we count the "Immigrant Somalis" we get:

Jacub & Ba Fadal: 580
Moorshe: 685
Bandawoow: 1,250
Iskashato: 920
Mursola: 730
Reer Maanyo: 555
Immigrant Somalis: 1,430

Total: 6,150 which is 56% of the civilian population while Somalis amount to at least 1/3 of the military population. It's also obvious even when you discount the Hawiyes (Jacub & Mursola) and immigrant Somalis that the Gibil-Madow Benadiris (3,410) greatly outnumber the Gibil-Cads (1,610).

And this is while not counting Dhabarweyne and Saddex Geedi whom we know are Gibil-Madows. I'm being generous and discounting Dhabarweyne and Saddex Geedi because they are collated together in the census with Shanshiyos and Reer Shaykhs so we don't know the exact numbers even though the Italians tell us clearly the Reer Shaykh in particular are not numerous at all and therefore aren't likely to make up much of the collation between them and the Saddex Geedi which is 650 people:

So you told people in that thread that about 15% or so of the population and true Arabs who don't even amount to 10% of the population were the majority while a group (Somalis), who make up about 60% of the civilian population and are by far the largest demographic, were a minority. That's some serious misleading stuff if I've ever seen it. Or am I missing something?

A person elsewhere of maternal Benadiri roots further added some details:

One minor correction: Yacub and Bafadal are Hiraab confederation & Clergy men and Gezira are Sheeikhal. Sometimes they confuse Sheikhaal for Gibil Cad or Arab because they claim descent from a seperate Arab Sheikh linked to Abu Bakr than other Somali clans and they are however a confederation which includes core founding native group/Madow)) and mixed minority immigrants(Cads) that are basically subs of eachother. Similar to Begedi & Geledi. Reer Shaykh are from the Raxanweyn Muminoow clan , their clan founder is burried in Buur Hakaba. Mursola are a Murusade Hawiye clan.

They are correct. Yacub/Jacub and Bafadal are Hiraab/Darandole according to the Italians too as I've pretty much pointed out above though I neglected to add the part where they mention them being Hiraab:

This tribe seems to be very important even to the Italians who dedicate the longest section to them by far:

Yacub:

Examples of other tribes:

And this person makes it known that the Gesira whom I was dubious on are apparently Sheeikhal though, whatever they are, the Italians make it known to us that they don't live in the city proper and live in a village on an island (a Jazeera) 20 kilometers away:

Mursola is also indeed Hawiye as another Italian source makes clear. It's the Murursade subtribe and they even had one of Xamar's 4 gates named after them:

A wall surrounds all the city and opens itself to the outside through four doors (gates):

one towards the sea on the north east side going to Itala and Obbia (Adala and Hobbiyo);

the Gardens door (possibly near the Arba‟- Rukun mosque and garden);

the Market door, from which are the roads leading to the interior and, particularly, to Afgoi, the Scidle and the Dafet (Afgooye, Jowhar and Dafet);

and finally, the Mursola door to the south, leading towards Gesira, Merca and Brava (Jesira, Marka and Baraawe) - by Italian colonial officer Stefanini in May 1913​

This of course makes sense with all the books I've read from authors like Virginia Luling, Lee V. Casanelli and Hajji Mukhtar that make it apparent that the Hawiye were very important to the history of Xamar from the early 17th century onwards based on local sources and accounts. But anyway, this person also pointed out that the minority Reer Shaykh are in fact the Reer Shaykh Minimunoow who are apparently Raxanweyn so here are the revised numbers when adding Reer Shaykh, Saddex Geedi and Gezira:

Jacub & Ba Fadal: 580
Moorshe: 685
Bandawoow: 1,250
Iskashato: 920
Mursola: 730
Reer Maanyo: 555
Reer Shaykh & Saddex Geedi: 650
Gezira: 252
Immigrant Somalis: 1,430

Total: 7,052 people means 64.3% of the civilian population with Somali admixed cadcads being at least about 15%. Even if you remove the Gezira and the minority Reer Shaykh whom I can't entirely confirm right now, the numbers are still quite damning at about 50% of the civilian population and well over 5,000 people. Not to mention that I'm not even able in either case to add the Dhabarweyne to the count given that they've been collated together with Shanshiyos.

Here is a coloring of basically Somali/Gibil-Madow type (red) and Gibil-Cad type (green) groups that the Italians tell us live in Xamarweyne and Shingani respectively:

Xamarweyne: Shanshiyo, Gudmani (Bandawoow subgroup), Dhabarweyne, Moorshe, Iskashato and Bandawoow
Shingani: Jacub, Asharaaf, Amudi, Ba Fadal, Reer Shaykh, Saddex Geedi and Murursade

(Reer Maanyo and Reer Faqi are said to be divided up between the two districts)​

Again, like I said, there's a reason Xamar always looks majority Somali in all the depictions, images and passing accounts. It was, saxiib. But again, I'll grant you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you made your claims without knowing any of this. I didn't know some of it until now myself.

 

[Woke1.4rm.Shibis]

I saw recently that @Jacko made this post:



What he doesn't seem to realize and I think a majority of you on here oddly don't know is that not all Benadiris are cadcads. The majority were historically "Gibil-Madow" Benadiris who were basically indistinguishable from other Somalis. These include Benadiri tribes like the Moorshe, Iskashato, Bandawoow and Dhabarweyne who basically look like this. As far as I know, the Asharaaf and Reer Maanyo are not counted among them but are basically the same and looked like this and this respectively. These groups together made up the majority of Benadiris and faced much less discrimination during the civil war era due to their appearance when compared to Gibil-Cads like Shanshiyos:

According to representatives from Shansiye interviewed by Landinfo in Nairobi in September 2005, the socalled dark-skinned Benadiris, i.e. Moorshe, Bandawow and Dhabarweyne, were protected by their Somali neighbours because they were dark-skinned (and presumed to be more native Somali), while most of the lightskinned Benadiris had fled at the beginning of the civil war (1991-1992). - Source
​

As far as I know the Gibil-Madows are thought to originally be of origins like Ajuuraan and Raxanweyn and are, as the local traditions maintain, Xamar's equivalent to the Tunni of Barawe whom that town's founding tradition holds were the original inhabitants who accepted foreign settlers and founded the medieval predecessor of the town with them. It's even interesting that Reer Asharaaf's dialect is supposedly about as divergent from Af-Maxaa (variety of dialects spoken historically by Dir, Isaaq, Darood and Hawiye) as Af-Maay which tells you that there were seemingly several pre-Hawiye-Darood "Soomaali group" speakers in the south like Maay folk, Asharaafs, Tunnis and Jiddus:

Source
​

These were probably the sorts of folks alongside the Hawiye and Ajuuraan (depending on whether you want to count the latter among the Hawiye) who were the "Berbers" (Somalis) authors like Ibn Battuta describe during the 1300s and claimed they kept many camels and sheep and were a dark-skinned people living from Zeila down to the vicinity of Xamar and Marka.

But anyway, once you know all this and you look at the document Jacko is referring to regarding Xamar's demographics:

​

You will realize that Gibil-Madow Benadiris alongside Asharaaf and Reer Maanyo made up the majority of Benadiris like sources such as this one assert:

Moorshe: 685
Bandawoow: 1,250
Iskashato: 920
Dhabarweyne: 1,137
Asharaaf: 600
Reer Maanyo: 555

Total: 5,147

Vs.

The groups one can tell for sure are Gibil-Cad Benadiris:

Reer Faqi: 340
Ba Fadal: 580
Amudi: 670
Reer Shaykh Saddex Geedi: 650

Total: 2,240

I'm not sure about "Mursulo" and "Gesira" but even with them counted as Gibil-Cad the Gibil-Madow outnumber them. And once you count the non-Benadiri Somalis (1,430) who were probably of tribes like the Abgaal whom we know were present in districts like Shingani and among the elite with the Gibil-Madow, the total essentially "Somali" population is 6,577 which amounts to 60% of the town's 10,959 population once you discount the "indigenous" troops whose ethnic makeup we don't entirely know. The Gibil-Cads amount to 20% of the population and it should be noted that they are not actually of entirely foreign origins and virtually all so far tested Gibil-Cad Benadiris keep showing significant (25-40%) Somali admixture alongside Y-DNA markers like E-V32 popping up at times with the rest of the ancestry seeming to be Desi, MENA, Central Asian and Bantu. Basically the result of foreign settlers intermixing with Somalis. Confirmed foreigners like Arabs (970) and Indians (190) only amounted to 10% of the population in that above document.

There's a reason the historical images we have of Xamar around this period make it look pretty majority Somali:



It's because it was. At any rate, I don't think Jacko had any intention of misleading people. The saxiib clearly just didn't know this about Benadiris or the history of the city so not really anything against him here. Just don't like people being mislead hence a whole thread on this subject. Hope that was an interesting read, saxiibs.

Iskashato is subclan of moorsho . Within iskashato there are confederacy of gibil madoow and gabil cad .

REER XAMAR TOLWEYNE MOORSHO ISKAASHATO

FANKA IYO SUUGANTA BANAADIRIGA

youtu.be

the people in this video are mostly a subclan of iskashato called indoweeyne
Who trace their abtiris to wacdan cisman darandoole mudulood .

You see at 4:20 he says iskashato live all the way to ceelasha ?
Hes talking about the indoweeyne subclan who Abtiris to wacdan cisman who have joined the confederacy .some look pure somali and some Look cad cad.

Saddex geedi (the 3 travellers ) like some of the moorsho subclans are pure samaale
Who have lived in Shinghani befor the fall of ajuuran but now have cad cad look and have the same dialect as the rest of shinghani. They are associated with the amuudis.

Jeezira also known as sheikhael aw bah hassan like all sheikhaels They trace their lineage to the first calipha abubakar Radiyallahu anhu the founder is Buried here in the famous jazeera rock

Most look cad cad like adnaan (boqorka gambiska) some look somali . They are arab in the pure sense but have only mixed with silcis ,ajuraan and hiraab clans for soo long so they are associated with hawiye .

Jacùb (yaquub)

Also known as reer imaam ,is a subclan of harti abgaal they are the imaam of hiraab and lived in shinghani since after the over throw of ajuuran

 

[Shimbiris]

Iskashato is subclan of moorsho .

Yeah, the Italians say this too:

And you can see they mention indhoweeyne. They do not mention any Gibil-Cads being present among these Iskashato, though.

Saddex geedi (the 3 travellers ) like some of the moorsho subclans are pure samaale
Who have lived in Shinghani befor the fall of ajuuran but now have cad cad look and have the same dialect as the rest of shinghani. They are associated with the amuudis.

Do you know when they made the shift to being more mixed? They were just Gibil-Madows in the time the Italians encountered them.

Jeezira also known as sheikhael aw bah hassan like all sheikhaels They trace their lineage to the first calipha abubakar Radiyallahu anhu the founder is Buried here in the famous jazeera rock

I'm confused, walaal. Do you have some examples? I've looked these guys up before and only turned up with this:



And the maternally Benadiri guy who gave me a rundown on them says the opposite of what you're saying which is that the cadcad types are a minority:

Gezira are Sheeikhal. Sometimes they confuse Sheikhaal for Gibil Cad or Arab because they claim descent from a seperate Arab Sheikh linked to Abu Bakr than other Somali clans and they are however a confederation which includes core founding native group/Madow)) and mixed minority immigrants(Cads) that are basically subs of eachother. ​

They were a small group when the Italians came along though (252 people) and didn't live in Xamar but on their island 20km away.

Jacùb (yaquub)

Also known as reer imaam ,is a subclan of harti abgaal they are the imaam of hiraab and lived in shinghani since after the over throw of ajuuran

I'm aware and added that to my posts, walaal. They and the Murursade Hawiyes were quite important in Xamar.

 

[convincation]

This thread was very informative, I always knew benadiris were not a monolith but I wasn’t aware that the divide was this clear

 

[World]

Hawiye were actually banned from Mogadishu at night time, they were sent to the bushes.

“In ancient times the Sirasi lived in Mogadiscio. The people called Halawani succeeded the Sirasi. The Mudaffar succeeded the Halawani. The Mudaffar came from the country of Yemen in Arabia. He had guns. He built the palace that is found under the Governor’s house. He was a friend of the Aguran. At that time the Mudaffar governed the coast; and the Aguran ruled in the woodland. The Hirabe were not nearby them; they lived in the northern places. At that time the people of the woodland could not spend the night in the city of Mogadiscio. At sunset a ban was put on the city: ‘Hawiyya, it is growing dark! Hawiyya, it is growing dark!’ Then they went away toward the woodland.”

Imagine that! Hawiye had a curfew placed on them by this guys ancestor:

 

[convincation]

Hawiye were actually banned from Mogadishu at night time, they were sent to the bushes.

“In ancient times the Sirasi lived in Mogadiscio. The people called Halawani succeeded the Sirasi. The Mudaffar succeeded the Halawani. The Mudaffar came from the country of Yemen in Arabia. He had guns. He built the palace that is found under the Governor’s house. He was a friend of the Aguran. At that time the Mudaffar governed the coast; and the Aguran ruled in the woodland. The Hirabe were not nearby them; they lived in the northern places. At that time the people of the woodland could not spend the night in the city of Mogadiscio. At sunset a ban was put on the city: ‘Hawiyya, it is growing dark! Hawiyya, it is growing dark!’ Then they went away toward the woodland.”

Imagine that! Hawiye had a curfew placed on them by this guys ancestor:

View attachment 189769

Hawiye is way too broad a term. After all it was hawiye clans (ajuran and then abgaal) that ruled Mogadishu for over 1000 years. Clans like yacqub abgaal, murusade, reer mataan and wacdan were considered nobles in Mogadishu and most of xamars sultans from 1500s-1900s were from the yacqub subclan of harti abgaal and before that xamar was part and parcel of the ajuran empire. To top it off a considerable number of benadiris have hawiye ancestry and in Some cases are fully hawiye that assimilated into the local benadiri confederacies (e.g. the moorshe being ajuran and the jazira being sheekhaal)


I would assume that quote was more to do with reer baadiyo vs reer magaal than anything else.

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[Habbad]

is my man gonna make a reply or did he abandon the thread

 

[Habbad]

dropbox link isnt working for me. was it deleted?

 

[Shimbiris]

Hawiye were actually banned from Mogadishu at night time, they were sent to the bushes.

Yet another saxiib who doesn't know what he's talking about spreading misinformation. I suppose it isn't enough that you can see in a literal census that shows Hawiyes are part of the settled population of the city? In fact, the "Jacub" (Hiraab) are noted by the Italians to basically be the foremost tribe in the city that tended to lead. Murarsade are present too and have one of the city's 4 gates named after them unlike any other tribe. Not to mention the Dhabarweyne who are actually Hawiye in origin and the Moorshe who will make it clear to you that they were basically Ajuran (if you believe Ajuran is a Hawiye subtribe) and are traditionally regarded as the city's oldest tribe:

The Murshow, widely regarded as Mogadishu's oldest clan, regard themselves as an offshoot of the Ajuran, a pastoral gorup popularly believed to have ruled the southern interior during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The Dubbarwayn claim descent from the Hawadle and Murusade clans , while the commerically influential Bandawow are descended largely from various pastoral groups - source​

Just 3 of these 4 tribes seem to outnumber the number of cadcad people in the city from going off the Italian census. Just observe who is listed as a resident of each of the two old districts:

Xamarweyne: Shanshiyo, Gudmani (Bandawoow subgroup), Dhabarweyne, Moorshe, Iskashato and Bandawoow

Shingani: Jacub, Asharaaf, Amudi, Ba Fadal, Reer Shaykh, Saddex Geedi and Murursade

(Reer Maanyo and Reer Faqi are said to be divided up between the two districts)​

Just 2 (counting Reer Faqi) Gibil-cad groups in Xamarweyne out of 7 and 3 out of 8 in Shingani. Actual Arabs and Indians make up about 10% of the population. Gibil-Cads about 20% if one is generous and assumes Shanshiyos made up the majority of the collating of them and the Dhabarweyne. The remaining 70%? Gibil-Madow; pretty much pure Somalis.

You didn't even need to read that the Italians tell us they were full-time residents of the city, saxiib. You just had to use logic for a second. You thought 70% of the population from which the ruling class also largely come were leaving the city at night?

“In ancient times the Sirasi lived in Mogadiscio. The people called Halawani succeeded the Sirasi. The Mudaffar succeeded the Halawani. The Mudaffar came from the country of Yemen in Arabia. He had guns. He built the palace that is found under the Governor’s house. He was a friend of the Aguran. At that time the Mudaffar governed the coast; and the Aguran ruled in the woodland. The Hirabe were not nearby them; they lived in the northern places. At that time the people of the woodland could not spend the night in the city of Mogadiscio. At sunset a ban was put on the city: ‘Hawiyya, it is growing dark! Hawiyya, it is growing dark!’ Then they went away toward the woodland.”

This is incredibly weird, saxiib. Just like Jacko you don't seem to read your own sources fully. If you did you would have realized that this is referring to a time before the 1600s when the Hiraab had not come to enter Xamar and become dominant within its walls. It does not pertain to anytime after the overthrow of the Ajuran during the 1600s:

Later the Mudaffar had an interpreter who was called ‘Ismankäy Haggi ‘Ali. This ‘Ismankäy had the idea of letting the Darandollä enter the city. A message was sent to the imam Mahmud ‘Umar, who lived at Golol. The imam, guiding his Page: 71 warriors, came south and approached Mogadiscio. Then what did ‘Ismankäy do? He spoke with the Mudaffar: ‘By now the Darandollä are near Mogadiscio, let me be accompanied by some soldiers, and I shall go to them.’ ‘How do you want to do it?’ ‘I shall do it this way. I shall come to an agreement with the leaders and make them return to the places in the north.’ ‘So be it!’ said the Mudaffar. Then ‘Ismänkäy took some soldiers with him, but without weapons: ‘Leave your weapons! We go out to conclude an agreement, not really for war.’ They put down the weaons. They went into the woodland. When they had gone into the woodland, the Darandollä came out and took all the soldiers prisoner. Then they continued the raid and entered Mogadiscio. The Mudaffar was caputred and they wanted to kill him. But he, looking at the people who had come close to him, saw among them ‘Ismankäy Haggi Ali. ‘Stop!’ he said then. ‘Before you kill me, I want to speak. O ‘Ismankäy, you are good for nothing, you are capable of nothing, you will not pass seven!’ he said. Thus was 248 ‘Ismankäy cursed. When the Mudaffar was killed, when seven days passed after his death, ‘Ismankäy died too. It happened exactly as he had been cursed.

‘After entering Muqdisho, the Darandoolle quarrelled with the Ajuraan. They quarrelled over watering rights. The Ajuraan had decreed: ‘At the wells in our territory, the people known as Darandoolle and the other Hiraab cannot water their herds by day, but only at night’’…Then all the Darandoolle gathered in one place. The leaders decided to make war on the Ajuraan. They found the imam of the Ajuraan seated on a rock near a well called Ceel Cawl. They killed him with a sword. As they struck him with the sword, they split his body together with the rock on which he was seated. He died immediately and the Ajuraan migrated out of the country.’​

History of Wacdaan and their alliance with the Geledi

The Wacdaan subclan of Darandole Mudulood have a centuries-old alliance with the Geledi which stands to this day. The history of this subclan and their alliance with the Geledi spans a long time an…

operationoverload.wordpress.com

Yet you used this to claim, falsely, that Hawiyes weren't truly residents during the 1800s. Bismillah.

That being said, what that source is referencing is more likely a common tradition across walled towns in the Eastern Horn like Xamar and Saylac which was that there was always a significant nomadic contingent of the city who would come and go, like when the gates close around Maghrib. This same sort of arrangement seems to have existed even in Harar during the 1800s:

The other inhabitants are about 3000 Bedouins, who “come and go.” ​

First footsteps in East Africa : Burton, Richard Francis, Sir, 1821-1890 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xii, 320 pages 23 cm

archive.org

Bedouins is Burton's preffered word for nomads throughout his book. He refers to Afar and Somali nomads as such constantly. In this case the nomads seem to be of largely Somali stock.

We already know through sources like Ibn Battuta that cities like Saylac and Xamar were considered Somali by sources like him from and it is pointed out that the Sultan of Xamar in 1331 was of this stock and not a foreigner like a prominent local Judge ("Qadi") who was an Egyptian:

I took ship at Aden, and after four days at sea reached Zayla, the town of the Berberah, who are a Negro people. Who are followers of the Iman al-Shafi.

Their land is a desert extending for two months' journey from Zayla to Maqdashaw (Mogadishu). Their beasts of burden are camels, and they possess sheep which are famous for their butter. The people are dark skinned and most people are rejecters.

...

As we have said, the Sultan of Mogadishu is called Shaikh by his subjects. His name is Abu Bark ibn Shaikh Omar, and by race he is a Berber.(huwa fi'l-asl min al-Barbara). He talks in the language of Mogadishu but knows Arabic.

...

When I arrived at the palace with the Qadi, whose name was Ibn Burhan al-Misri (meaning from Egypt), a eunuch came out and greeted him. ​

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Convication's assumption is probably spot-on in that this is just Reer Magaal, Gibil-Madow types creating a firm divide between themselves and their Reer Miyi cousins in the hinterland.

 

[𐒁𐒚𐒒𐒂𐒘𐒂𐒗 𐒎𐒚𐒗𐒗𐒒]

I took ship at Aden, and after four days at sea reached Zayla, the town of the Berberah, who are a Negro people. Who are followers of the Iman al-Shafi.

Their land is a desert extending for two months' journey from Zayla to Maqdashaw (Mogadishu). Their beasts of burden are camels, and they possess sheep which are famous for their butter. The people are dark skinned and most people are rejecters.

Who are the "rejecters" in this reference? And does "rejecter" mean Kuffaar?

 

[Shimbiris]

Who are the "rejecters" in this reference? And does "rejecter" mean Kuffaar?

He supposedly means that they were Shia. Yes, I know it's weird but according to Battuta our predecessors in 1331 were Shia but I'm sure he was somehow confused or there's more likely an issue with the translation here. Can't be true. He notes that they are Shafi'i which obviously means Sunnis. Dunno why he'd claim they're Shia. He stayed in Xamar for a good while and was a guest of the Sultan and prayed with him, if memory serves me right.

 

[𐒁𐒚𐒒𐒂𐒘𐒂𐒗 𐒎𐒚𐒗𐒗𐒒]

He supposedly means that they were Shia. Yes, I know it's weird but according to Battuta our predecessors in 1331 were Shia but I'm sure he was somehow confused or there's more likely an issue with the translation here. Can't be true. He notes that they are Shafi'i which obviously means Sunnis. Dunno why he'd claim they're Shia. He stayed in Xamar for a good while and was a guest of the Sultan and prayed with him, if memory serves me right.

I would have thought he would call them "Sufis" instead of "Shiahs". Till today, there are Sufis in Somalia but Shiahs are an oddity.

 

[Shimbiris]

I would have thought he would call them "Sufis" instead of "Shiahs". Till today, there are Sufis in Somalia but Shiahs are an oddity.

Come to think of it, that is likely what he meant and the western translator probably got it confused. No way they were Shafi'i and Shia, as far as I know. He probably meant they were Sufis. He describes their country as stretching from Saylac in the north down to around Xamar in the south and that the people are black-skinned and herd camels and sheep, obviously Somalis. He calls the land "Bilad al-Barbara" like other Arabs and Islamic chroniclers of around his time. I believe some others like al-Idrisi give the same mapping and generally extend Bilad al-Barbar down to the mouth of the Jubba. What was beneath was "Bilad al-Zanj" ("Swahili coast").

I mean we already know through linguistics, genetics and the local chronicles and oral histories but if you ever encounter some fool claiming the Koonfur coastal cities were "Swahili" feel free to point this out to them. They were not ever considered part of the Swahili coast and were particularly Cushitic Somaloid (Hawiye, Raxanweyn, Ajuuraan, Tunni and later Bimaal) in terms of native elements.