Genetics: How indigenous are Haratin to North Africa?

I know him from fb and we already discussed about this ...his "haratins" are only partially haratin and these people mixed with southern north africans who can reach as high as 50% of IBM ancestry.

Haratin as a whole are descendents of west african slaves who were imported in North africa there is nothing indigenous about them except the ones who are mixed ofc.
 

kobe

Highly Respected
I know him from fb and we already discussed about this ...his "haratins" are only partially haratin and these people mixed with southern north africans who can reach as high as 50% of IBM ancestry.

Haratin as a whole are descendents of west african slaves who were imported in North africa there is nothing indigenous about them except the ones who are mixed ofc.
Aren't all Haratins somewhat mixed anyways? Like African Americans
 

Apollo

C'mon man
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Moderator
Sahara Berbers (non-Haritan) have higher IBM ancestry than them. So they are essentially mixed between them and the West African slaves imported during the middle ages. The (partial) slave trade origin of the Haratin is a solid fact and is no way in doubt. It is both documented and acknowledged by themselves.

Of course they also have local ancestry, but that image/data does not support the idea that they are the same as the people who lived in that area thousands of years ago. Just like Mexican Mestizos. They have Amerindian local ancestry, but also obviously foreign European ancestry introduced (relatively) recently.
 
Aren't all Haratins somewhat mixed anyways? Like African Americans
yes but like african americans they still get high amount of SSA way more than these mixed haratin with 25% ssa lol.

Let me show you some examples.

Here north africans with some haratin relatives (so mixed) :






"pure" haratin in comparison :



slah_mosbah_1544208357.jpg
 

Apollo

C'mon man
Staff Member
Moderator
Sample MOU11 is barely Haratin, lol. That one could almost be a regular Sahara Berber. While the ones scoring over 30% SSA probably look black-ish.
 

Apollo

C'mon man
Staff Member
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Oh and one more thing. Many Sahelian populations like Fulanis, Toubous etc have IBM ancestry. You have to take that into account.

Haratins may have ancestry from the nearby Sahel which has some ancient Berber admixture already.

 

kobe

Highly Respected
Oh and one more thing. Many Sahelian populations like Fulanis, Toubous etc have IBM ancestry. You have to take that into account.

Haratins may have ancestry from the nearby Sahel which has some ancient Berber admixture already.

I'm familiar with the Toubou being enslaved from Tuareg raids (vice versa also), though I doubt any serious amount of Haratin have Toubou ancestry. Fulani I can see on the other hand, but I believe most of the slaves come from the less warlike easier to subdue pagan black tribes
 

Apollo

C'mon man
Staff Member
Moderator
I'm familiar with the Toubou being enslaved from Tuareg raids (vice versa also), though I doubt any serious amount of Haratin have Toubou ancestry. Fulani I can see on the other hand, but I believe most of the slaves come from the less warlike easier to subdue pagan black tribes
Yeah, probably not the Toubou since they seem rather fierce like Afars and Somalis. But I meant in general populations (racially) similar to them. The Green Sahara period is what caused the high amount of IBM/Ancient Maghreb ancestry in Fulanis. Probably other groups similar to them exist in that area that I am not familiar with.
 
I'm familiar with the Toubou being enslaved from Tuareg raids (vice versa also), though I doubt any serious amount of Haratin have Toubou ancestry. Fulani I can see on the other hand, but I believe most of the slaves come from the less warlike easier to subdue pagan black tribes
Indeed slave traders in Timbuktu used to take their slaves among pagan tribes of southern Mali. Some haratin could have fulani ancestors but most of them do not imo
 
Yeah, probably not the Toubou since they seem rather fierce like Afars and Somalis. But I meant in general populations (racially) similar to them. The Green Sahara period is what caused the high amount of IBM/Ancient Maghreb ancestry in Fulanis. Probably other groups similar to them exist in that area that I am not familiar with.
Also additional north african ancestry 3000 years ago probably through the famous "equidians" who submitted many black communities in the sahara and it coincides with the introduction of horses in west africa
 
It's interesting to see how these guys became the ruling political elite in Mauritania. Black African non Arab/Berber people can never catch a break if they live in the same country as Berbers or Arabs. The only African countries that have Berber or Arab tribe's where they didn't rule over the non Arab black African people is probably Mali and Chad.
 
It's interesting to see how these guys became the ruling political elite in Mauritania. Black African non Arab/Berber people can never catch a break if they live in the same country as Berbers or Arabs. The only African countries that have Berber or Arab tribe's where they didn't rule over the non Arab black African people is probably Mali and Chad.
in the case of Mali the Azawad region has always been ruled by tuaregs and they are still fighting today to make it independent :

 
You really think they are not indigenous to North Africa?

This is Jebel Irhoud
1599100384301.png


Now you want to tell me the Haratin don't have a continuity with this guy but some Pied-Noir descendants who go back to the Vandals and Visigoths are more indigenous?
Tell the Europeans they do not have continuity with Neanderthals and see how they respond.
 
You really think they are not indigenous to North Africa?

This is Jebel Irhoud


Now you want to tell me the Haratin don't have a continuity with this guy but some Pied-Noir descendants who go back to the Vandals and Visigoths are more indigenous?
Tell the Europeans they do not have continuity with Neanderthals and see how they respond.
that's a proto Homo sapiens he's not necessarily closer to any modern ssa groups. And who said europeans are indigenous to North africa ? Also what do pied-noirs have to do with vandals ? (Btw visigoths never went to North Africa )

Haratin came from west africa the same way vandals came from Europe and were not indigenous what can't you understand in this ?
 
Oh and one more thing. Many Sahelian populations like Fulanis, Toubous etc have IBM ancestry. You have to take that into account.

Haratins may have ancestry from the nearby Sahel which has some ancient Berber admixture already.

Apollo have tests been done on Mauritanians and people from Western Sahara, how Sub-Saharan are they?
 
that's a proto Homo sapiens he's not necessarily closer to any modern ssa groups. And who said europeans are indigenous to North africa ? Also what do pied-noirs have to do with vandals ? (Btw visigoths never went to North Africa )

Haratin came from west africa the same way vandals came from Europe and were not indigenous what can't you understand in this ?
Well he's closer to this
1599139583542.png



than this
1599139767074.png



I never said Europeans are indigenous to North Africa but what they are doing is keeping alive their Hamitic Theory and erasing other people's history and heritage by making other people indigenous.
 
in the case of Mali the Azawad region has always been ruled by tuaregs and they are still fighting today to make it independent :

it wont happen, the countries have france on their side and
You really think they are not indigenous to North Africa?

This is Jebel Irhoud
View attachment 139835

Now you want to tell me the Haratin don't have a continuity with this guy but some Pied-Noir descendants who go back to the Vandals and Visigoths are more indigenous?
Tell the Europeans they do not have continuity with Neanderthals and see how they respond.
Archaic Homo sapien, and id be willing to bet its closer to some given eurasian group then to any living sub saharan. Convergent evolution is a thing, phenotype is not always everything
 
Well he's closer to this
View attachment 139856


than this
View attachment 139857


I never said Europeans are indigenous to North Africa but what they are doing is keeping alive their Hamitic Theory and erasing other people's history and heritage by making other people indigenous.
Phenotype similarities are meaningless I can find you moroccans who look straight uzbek it doesn't mean they are related to uzbek people.

What about these papuans ?

a1ec2d4737f785e2903d321ccdef9b52.jpg


Do you know that these people are closer genetically to south-east asians like filipinos or indonesians than to any SSA group ?

There is no hamitic theory here we're talking about scientific facts we don't care about political correctness.
 

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