Entwined African and Asian genetic roots of medieval peoples of the Swahili coast

[Step a side]

The custom of cutting parts of the children's hair was not a "Shirazi" introduction. It was a chief ancient Cushitic practice and extended to East Sahelian non-Cushitic peoples, that likely got it from Cushites. More like random Hawiyes guessing and making up stuff instead of it being an oral tradition and Cerulli leaning on those fabrications.

I have read mentions of old, now conveniently gone fragments of structures made by supposedly Iranian-speaking peoples that today cannot seem to exist anywhere near the southern coast. I think it is worth an investigation on archeological grounds, and conceivably more evidence of foreign contact will be uncovered in the context of the ancient trade, things we know took place.

One needs evidence and firm multi-modal substantiation for extending influence from southeast Africa to the southern Somali coast. If Southern Somali contact with Iranian types happened, which I have no issue with (besides the weird affinity to state that West/Central Asians came to the coast first), it would likely be a separate thing from the Swahilis until that is disproven by facts on the ground.

People like you are really needed in this day and age. You sound really educated. Cerulli just writes down what he hears and everything he heard is based on oral history. Nothing factual.

No doubt the entire region all the way down the Azania coast was inhabited by Proto Somaloid groups. I’m guessing they were the ancestors of some of the E-M293 Somalis we see today in the south. This also might include the E-V32 Kenyans we see as well as the linguistic connections with Rendille, boni, aware, girirra etc

 

[Garaad diinle]

A run I quickly made from the cluster-based averages of the samples from the study:
View attachment 263318

Can you give us a quick assessment on the one with 64% cushitic component. He seems to have no niger-congo so i'm a bit reluctant to call him a native, perhaps he was a merchant? Does the sudanese part stand for nilotic or does it include arab sudanese?

 

[Hamzza]

I don't know why he keeps peddling the myth that Asians settled Mogadishu before us. I read several threads on this and he's been debunked several times, and proven wrong. Ignore him.

@Shimbiris, come collect this ana-Arab Hamzza.

You are not a reasonable debater @JackieBurkhart

 

[Step a side]

Can you give us a quick assessment on the one with 64% cushitic component. He seems to have no niger-congo so i'm a bit reluctant to call him a native, perhaps he was a merchant? Does the sudanese part stand for nilotic or does it include arab sudanese?

He is I believe dubbed as a pastoralist with Cushitic/Nilotic background, which is typical ancestry for “some” pastoralist in those regions.

 

[Burqad]

He is I believe dubbed as a pastoralist with Cushitic/Nilotic background, which is typical ancestry for “some” pastoralist in those regions.

Everyone knows the Swahili origin story involves living near Somalioid people in mythical shungwaya before the Oromo chased them off. In fact the Katwa section is actually Garre Somali

 

[Reformed J]

He is I believe dubbed as a pastoralist with Cushitic/Nilotic background, which is typical ancestry for “some” pastoralist in those regions.

Yeah seems like he was Datooga type, wonder how he ended in an elite Swahili grave

Maybe from Southern Ethiopia/Northern Kenya given the higher Mota and no Bantu

 

[Reformed J]

@Step a side @Garaad diinle

Look at the Cushitic and Omotic proportions of the two Borana-like Oromos (84% Cushitic, 16% Omotic), what's to say that outlier Swahili individual was 3/4 Borana-like (63% Cushitic, 12% Omotic) and 1/4 Dinka (25%)

 

[Step a side]

@Step a side @Garaad diinle

Look at the Cushitic and Omotic proportions of the two Borana-like Oromos, what's to say that outlier Swahili individual was 3/4 Borana-like and 1/4 Dinka

Great observation. He is indeed more “Oromoid like” compared to Datoog due to the higher Mota and absence of “Bantu like” ancestry.

I’m too lazy to read the paper again but where exactly was this pastoralist found? I assume Kenya. If this is correct then it realigns with the Kenyan ethnic map

I would assume during the medieval period there was more yellow and less red on the coast. I could be completely wrong though. Maybe less Oromo but more Oromoid like groups roamed these regions along side Somaloid.

 

[Garaad diinle]

@Step a side @Garaad diinle

Look at the Cushitic and Omotic proportions of the two Borana-like Oromos (84% Cushitic, 16% Omotic), what's to say that outlier Swahili individual was 3/4 Borana-like (63% Cushitic, 12% Omotic) and 1/4 Dinka (25%)

Interesting theory specially since the sample clearly don't have any tanzanian pempa within him. Him coming from southern ethiopia in a semi gradual manner and then mixing with nilotes in kenya and eventually ending up on the coast i'd say is very likely. Keep in mind that around 1500 is when the borana/orma expansion occurred and extended as far south as the coast of malindi according to portuguese sources.

Here is an exert of local swahili tradition dating back to the 19th regarding oromos.

 

[The alchemist]

People like you are really needed in this day and age. You sound really educated. Cerulli just writes down what he hears and everything he heard is based on oral history. Nothing factual.

No doubt the entire region all the way down the Azania coast was inhabited by Proto Somaloid groups. I’m guessing they were the ancestors of some of the E-M293 Somalis we see today in the south. This also might include the E-V32 Kenyans we see as well as the linguistic connections with Rendille, boni, aware, girirra etc

Thank you.

Although oral history can be valuable in certain respects, it requires careful interpretation. It would be a mistake to completely discount it since oral history has a unique place in historical works, not to mention ethnographic value.

Around 2000 years ago, the northern coast was inhabited by ancient Somalis who likely had the E-V32 haplogroup as their primary genetic marker. While we can speculate about the possibility of higher Y-DNA diversity in a pre-bottleneck and founder effect scenario, it remains purely hypothetical. It is interesting to note that, similar to Somalis, Afar and Saho people also have primary genetic markers, specifically E-V6 and E-V22, respectively. This is a feature of pastoralism. Though it is important to state, this is an over-simplification.

The first groups to inhabit the southern coastal area were the southern Somalioid groups, specifically the ancestors of non-Af-Maxaa speaking groups such as Garre, Tunni, Geeliidle, Ashraaf, Boni, Jiddu, and Bayso. While Rendille is also included in this speech sub-branch we all exist in, they likely moved into Kenya in the earliest periods way before 2000 years ago. It is worth noting that Hawiye, while technically a northern group, has been living in the south for over 800 years, as they were mentioned by Al-Sa'idi and Al-Idrisi.

E-M293 is pretty much a South Cushtitic lineage. It's hard to say if it is a remnant of a past diversity or ancient assimilation of an ancient South Cushite. It is important to mention that there are rare instances where Somalis carry A-M13 and various not typical E HG including E-M293 that indeed can be a fragment of an ancient picture. It's hard to say.

 

[The alchemist]

Can you give us a quick assessment on the one with 64% cushitic component. He seems to have no niger-congo so i'm a bit reluctant to call him a native, perhaps he was a merchant? Does the sudanese part stand for nilotic or does it include arab sudanese?

I don't think there is any evidence yet to tell me he was not originally from Tanzania. The individual can be modeled as Iron Age Pastoralists samples from Kenya and Pastoral Neolithic + probably some extra Mota and Sudanese. Sudanese in this case is "pure" Nilo-Saharan.

Iron Age Pastoralists are Half Somali and half Nilo-Saharan Dinka type, tilting a bit more on the Cushitic ancestry.

It's hard to say if that sample is Iron Age + PN + minor Mota. It might be that the individual has more Pastoral Neolithic ancestry but got extra Nilotic influence instead of it being a Pastoral Iron Age sample that got a bit more Cushitic ancestry. Then again, this might be a false dilemma, the Pastoral Iron Age samples from Kenya might not represent the regional genetic mosaic in Tanzania although there was a strong correlation, a shift might have occurred, understandably.

 

[Shangani]

The custom of cutting parts of the children's hair was not a "Shirazi" introduction. It was a chief ancient Cushitic practice and extended to East Sahelian non-Cushitic peoples, that likely got it from Cushites. More like random Hawiyes guessing and making up stuff instead of it being an oral tradition and Cerulli leaning on those fabrications.

I have read mentions of old, now conveniently gone fragments of structures made by supposedly Iranian-speaking peoples that today cannot seem to exist anywhere near the southern coast. I think it is worth an investigation on archeological grounds, and conceivably more evidence of foreign contact will be uncovered in the context of the ancient trade, things we know took place.

One needs evidence and firm multi-modal substantiation for extending influence from southeast Africa to the southern Somali coast. If southern Somali contact with Iranian types happened, which I have no issue with (besides the weird affinity to state that West/Central Asians came to the coast first), it would likely be a separate thing from the Swahilis until that is disproven by facts on the ground.

I wonder when did this hairstyle die out, I've seen videos during the civil war in Bakool with kids with the same hair but don't think its practiced anywhere anymore.

 

[The alchemist]

@Step a side @Garaad diinle

Look at the Cushitic and Omotic proportions of the two Borana-like Oromos (84% Cushitic, 16% Omotic), what's to say that outlier Swahili individual was 3/4 Borana-like (63% Cushitic, 12% Omotic) and 1/4 Dinka (25%)

If you check the samplings from Tanzania, Luxumanda, and the outlier PN, they pack a hefty chunk of Mota-like ancestry. So we don't need to interpret that the individual is from Kenya or the southern frontier of modern Ethiopia. It's difficult to say if a pleasing model represents actual mixture proportions or if it just superimposes signature arrangements, lol.

But you know, it is interesting. With the discussion of those Tutsi, and Hima folks, it's hard to really say exactly how these complex arrangements came about in these mixed peoples. I wish it was simple and there was one explanation. Funny, that is not the case.

 

[Danakiil]

I’ve heard rumors of Shanshi having Persian heritage for years. Also, recently on TikTok a lot of Banadiri people have been doing 23&me DNA tests and they overwhelming end up having South Asian and Persian heritage.

Why did those groups claim mostly Arab heritage when they’re in fact mixed with Pakistani/Indian and Persian?

Shanshiyo claim decent from Uzbeki Iranic Sheikh. Looks like they weren't lying about their origins unlike certain other clans which will remain unnamed

 

[The alchemist]

View attachment 263416
I wonder when did this hairstyle die out, I've seen videos during the civil war in Bakool with kids with the same hair but don't think its practiced anywhere anymore.

It might be practiced deep into some villages in Ethiopia by some Cushitic peoples and I have seen Eastern Sahelians do it. There are modern (before the 21 century) pictures of Bejas too. Still, I think, for the most part, that tradition is dead among the overwhelming majority.

 

[Shangani]

Shanshiyo claim decent from Uzbeki Iranic Sheikh. Looks like they weren't lying about their origins unlike certain other clans which will remain unnamed

I have a sheikh sufi family member did a DNA test came back 3% central Asian

 

[Garaad Hirabu]

There is a new study soon coming out and it contains an ancient sample from the Bronze Age in Khaybar (saudi arabia) >> Y haplogroup T.

There is a new study soon coming out and it contains an ancient sample from the Bronze Age in Khaybar (saudi arabia) >> Y haplogroup T.

Interesting let us know when that study comes out. Dirs could be Binu qaynu qac the Jewish madina tribes

 

[Step a side]

Thank you.

Although oral history can be valuable in certain respects, it requires careful interpretation. It would be a mistake to completely discount it since oral history has a unique place in historical works, not to mention ethnographic value.

Around 2000 years ago, the northern coast was inhabited by ancient Somalis who likely had the E-V32 haplogroup as their primary genetic marker. While we can speculate about the possibility of higher Y-DNA diversity in a pre-bottleneck and founder effect scenario, it remains purely hypothetical. It is interesting to note that, similar to Somalis, Afar and Saho people also have primary genetic markers, specifically E-V6 and E-V22, respectively. This is a feature of pastoralism. Though it is important to state, this is an over-simplification.

The first groups to inhabit the southern coastal area were the southern Somalioid groups, specifically the ancestors of non-Af-Maxaa speaking groups such as Garre, Tunni, Geeliidle, Ashraaf, Boni, Jiddu, and Bayso. While Rendille is also included in this speech sub-branch we all exist in, they likely moved into Kenya in the earliest periods way before 2000 years ago. It is worth noting that Hawiye, while technically a northern group, has been living in the south for over 800 years, as they were mentioned by Al-Sa'idi and Al-Idrisi.

E-M293 is pretty much a South Cushtitic lineage. It's hard to say if it is a remnant of a past diversity or ancient assimilation of an ancient South Cushite. It is important to mention that there are rare instances where Somalis carry A-M13 and various not typical E HG including E-M293 that indeed can be a fragment of an ancient picture. It's hard to say.

Alchemist can you please send me the work were Al idrisi and Sa’idi mentioned Hawiye.

Do you think the Rendille language is the most Basal of all the Somaloid languages? Side note: I remember someone saying that Old South Arabian loan words have been detected in Rendille.

This is a bit off topic but yet relevant since we’re discussing E-M293. I was having an argument with another dude on another platform that E-M293, E-V6 came from Arabia and entered Africa via Eritrea. I came to this conclusion when looking at the CTS10880 and the old and diverse basal lineages in Arabia. You hardly see any of its branches in Nile valley samples whether ancient or not. There is also the connection with this ancient branch with its Semitic associated sibling E-M123 which we see among the Natufiams. E-V6 was found in Siwa Oasis berbers thus mirroring the Semitic-Berber connection on the AfroAsiatic tree

E-CTS10880 YTree

www.yfull.com

I think your right about ancient northern Somalia having E-V32 with other lineages that now died out.

 

[Step a side]

I have a sheikh sufi family member did a DNA test came back 3% central Asian

Some Benaadir people get high central Asian on their DNA test results. I’m talking as much as 20%+

 

[The alchemist]

The Cushitic-heavy individual got

Alchemist can you please send me the work were Al idrisi and Sa’idi mentioned Hawiye.

Do you think the Rendille language is the most Basal of all the Somaloid languages? Side note: I remember someone saying that Old South Arabian loan words have been detected in Rendille.

This is a bit off topic but yet relevant since we’re discussing E-M293. I was having an argument with another dude on another platform that E-M293, E-V6 came from Arabia and entered Africa via Eritrea. I came to this conclusion when looking at the CTS10880 and the old and diverse basal lineages in Arabia. You hardly see any of its branches in Nile valley samples whether ancient or not. There is also the connection with this ancient branch with its Semitic associated sibling E-M123 which we see among the Natufiams. E-V6 was found in Siwa Oasis berbers thus mirroring the Semitic-Berber connection on the AfroAsiatic tree

E-CTS10880 YTree

www.yfull.com

I think your right about ancient northern Somalia having E-V32 with other lineages that now died out.

I don't know if I have the stamina to sift through 100s of documents on this one. One source I read indirectly was through a Somali scholar and I think Al-Idrisi I found through a peculiar site. You know what, I know how you can hack it.. ask ChatGPT. I know this sounds ridiculous, but that machine can literally quickly source you. Ask it simply, "Did so and so mention Hawiye, " it will respond in the affirmative (technically the machine can't know what affirmation is, but I will not go into how the AI craze is a farce), and then demand the references for sources. It will probably reference Arabic direct sources. Then you can request for it to drop English translation and/or scholarly review and whatever you seek. I think I have found the solution. Because, man, the last thing I want is to check countless texts at the moment, opportunity costs, you feel me? Still, I think this solution will work for you.

No, I don't think Rendille is basal to the others, it is just another separate divergent one that goes back to the same proto-dialect continuum. I don't know specifically if there is South Arabian words but I know there are word commonalities in all the Soomaali languages that is related to subsistence, tool use and stuff that is directly related to other interesting stuff.

I see. I favor the view that states Arabia is overrepresented sample-wise. That skew causes problems to base an interpretation. So I believe those lineages are likely from Northeast Africa. An Arabian introduction is almost possible to imagine for all the lineages including E-V32, which I don't think people really care to subscribe to unless you're one of those Twitter Arabs brothers.All in all, we need more samples in the Horn of Africa, the broader Nile Valley, including southeast Africa. And yeah, of course, ancient DNA from all those areas too, not to mention Arabian ancient DNA as well. I believe you will see E-M293 and E-V6 and probably new sub-clades too once we have more information on the map.

But you know what, if you check Nile Valley Cushitic mtDNAs too, you will see them popping early in Arabia. I think various migrations happened from Nile Valley to Arabia that is unaccounted for historically and archeologically. I also think certain lineages from Nile Valley likely came to Arabia with the earliest Semitic groups that came down. At this point, the imagination is as good as it gets. But this is a digression.