Debate: Daniel Haqiqatjou vs Destiny

[Apollo]

your on record saying nuclear annihilation and genocide is more humane then servitude

In ancient times, killing the men of a hostile conquered group or disarming them, but not enslaving them.

In modern times, Chinese or Soviet style re-education camps and sophisticated surveillance to keep hostile groups in check, no enslavement.

Slavery is both morally wrong and economically inefficient.

 

[Apollo]

LOLOLOLOL, the guy is claiming Sweden is totalitarian:

 

[Keep it a boqol]

In ancient times, killing the men of a hostile conquered group or disarming them, but not enslaving them.

In modern times, Chinese or Soviet style re-education camps and sophisticated surveillance to keep hostile groups in check, no enslavement.

Slavery is both morally wrong and economically inefficient.

Lmao that’s a bold faced lie in ancient times slavery was a normal practice. Ancient Greeks use to practice it. Ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamia.

secondly your using a historical fallacy known as presentism.

Presentism: uncritical adherence to present-day attitudes, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts.

im not equivalentating Islamic slavery to the trans Atlantic slavery but the goal of the trans Atlantic slavery was economic profit without it the US and European nations wouldn’t be a worlds super power.

You are wrong in everything you stated

 

[Interested]

If your a slave and you have a child they are automatically free. Some of the best thinkers and high ranking officials kings and sultans were children of slaves in Islamic society

it’s also highly encouraged to free slaves as the reward and mercy of Allah you can gain from it is great. While abusing them can earn you hellfire.

Im not wiggling around anything im explaining you in full context Islamic slavery , which is only justifiable in the context of war while your on record being pro genocide and you think it’s the humane solution. That means you think it’s justifiable that the white man genocided the native Americans and stole their land. War isn’t a fun time. It’s full of violence and bloodshed, Islam offers the more humane solution in the context of war.

Laws on slavery arent very clear. I read that the one you cite (slave woman who gives birth and her child being free) was implemented by Umar during his time so everyone else was obliged to follow

Umar also freed a woman slave that got injured by her master, implemented compensation for that too.

He ordered that it was forbidden to separate a slave woman from her child, if you were to buy/sell them, they came together.


He ordered slave women to not wear hijab, even though that was meant to differentiate them from the free women.

Even though he didn't out right abolish it, he pushed back a lot of backward practices, was quoted saying this.

«Since when have you taken people for slaves when they were born free»

Since alot of muslim scholars are against it today, doesnt that make it the automatic Islamic view in regards to slavery?

 

[Bundasliga]

Any sort of slavery is morally wrong.

Not prisoners of war.
There is no system that can function without prisoners(which is a type of slavery)
& the other option is death penalty...

 

[Apollo]

Not prisoners of war.
There is no system that can function without prisoners(which is a type of slavery)
& the other option is death penalty...

I much rather be killed than be an adoon. I would probably kill the guy trying to enslave me.

Perhaps because I am Somali. Somalis never will be slaves.

 

[Bundasliga]

When it comes to war, yes, but not in peace time.

Fair enough, actually they have the option between death penalty or "enslavement" depending on the danger of the enemy.

They also took, if they'd loose if they'd get killed or enslaved,into consideration.

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

Lol @ Slavery being the more “humane” option. Death will always be superior to enslavement which will entail humiliation & being worked like a beast for the Men who conquered your nation.

 

[Keep it a boqol]

Laws on slavery arent very clear. I read that the one you cite (slave woman who gives birth and her child being free) was implemented by Umar during his time so everyone else was obliged to follow

Umar also freed a woman slave that got injured by her master, implemented compensation for that too.

He ordered that it was forbidden to separate a slave woman from her child, if you were to buy/sell them, they came together.


He ordered slave women to not wear hijab, even though that was meant to differentiate them from the free women.

Even though he didn't out right abolish it, he pushed back a lot of backward practices, was quoted saying this.

«Since when have you taken people for slaves when they were born free»

Since alot of muslim scholars are against it today, doesnt that make it the automatic Islamic view in regards to slavery?

Depending on the circumstances and the head of state, like Umar RA , slavery can be implanted or not depending on the necessity.

 

[Apollo]

Fair enough, actually they have the option between death penalty or "enslavement" depending on the danger of the enemy.

They also took, if they'd loose if they'd get killed or enslaved,into consideration.

The problem is that slavery extended way beyond prisoners of war.

Likewise with Christianity, albeit it was uncommon in Europe before the 1600s, even though European serfs were quasi-slaves, it wasn't the same as the Balkan and Zanj slaves. They were more like bound to the plot of land and couldn't be moved to another place against their will while this was the case with the slaves of Ottomans and Arabs.

The racialized slavery that started in the 1600s with the discovery of the new world was a misinterpretation of who ''Ham'' was. The guy was a Lebanese Semite, yet his curse was wrongfully applied on Black Africans.

 

[Bundasliga]

I much rather be killed than be an adoon. I would probably kill the guy trying to enslave me.

Perhaps because I am Somali. Somalis never will be slaves.

Sadly the conquered ones won't decide on what happens to them

 

[TekNiKo]

Islam doesnt have slavery, it has indentured servitude to reintegrate war victims and get money from the public funds to be free if they so desire. Modern day chattel slavery practiced by terror groups today have nothing to do with Islam.

 

[Bundasliga]

The problem is that slavery extended way beyond prisoners of war.

Likewise with Christianity, albeit it was uncommon in Europe before the 1600s, even though European serfs were quasi-slaves, it wasn't the same as the Balkan and Zanj slaves. They were more like bound to the plot of land and couldn't be moved to another place against their will while this was the case with the slaves of Ottomans and Arabs.

The racialized slavery that started in the 1600s with the discovery of the new world was a misinterpretation of who ''Ham'' was. The guy was a Lebanese Semite, yet it was applied on Black Africans.

Yeah it's obviously morally wrong to enslave innocent people.
It became a lucrative business & people took advantage of that.

 

[Clllam]

The Industrial revolution and more specifically, saaxibo like Newton, James Watt, and Michael Faraday rendered slavery useless by the mid 19th century

 

[Nilotic]

Lol @ Slavery being the more “humane” option. Death will always be superior to enslavement which will entail humiliation & being worked like a beast for the Men who conquered your nation.

Yes, death is much more preferable to slavery; I would much rather die fighting than to be a slave; there is simply nothing worse than being a slave.

Imagine the spirit crushing reality of being counted among the possessions of other men; imagine being a slave and knowing that your women folk were being raped and used by other men -- and that you looked revoltingly weak in the eyes of your own women, because you couldn't stop it.

This is better than annihilation?

Spiritual death is agonising and drawn out; physical death is almost invariably immediate and liberates you from humiliation.


This

...

..looks beautiful in comparison

 

[Kratos]

Lmao that’s a bold faced lie in ancient times slavery was a normal practice. Ancient Greeks use to practice it. Ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamia.

secondly your using a historical fallacy known as presentism.

Presentism: uncritical adherence to present-day attitudes, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts.

im not equivalentating Islamic slavery to the trans Atlantic slavery but the goal of the trans Atlantic slavery was economic profit without it the US and European nations wouldn’t be a worlds super power.

You are wrong in everything you stated

And Islamic slavery is only justifiable in the context of war. It is a huge sin to take captives outside of war and abuse them. The one who abuses a slave never gets to taste jannah. On top of that you just feed them and give them the same food and clothes you wear.

but you claim it’s more human to completely genocide in the context of war. Islam offers a more humane solution in the context of war

What do you think the goal of Islamic slavery is if not economical? The institution of slavery was important to the economy of pre-Islamic Arabia and it continued to be so during the time of Muhammad. If a slave wants his freedom, he has to buy it back. This is a law that safeguards the wealth of the master. If a Muslim slave tries to run away, his salah will not be accepted. Imagine someone from a foreign land with a foreign religion enslaved you, you then converted to their religion but you are still denied a right to self-determination. Freeing a slave was primarily a way that wealthy members of society could gain good deeds by giving up a portion of their wealth, akin to paying sadaqah.

The practice of slave-concubinage is particularly abhorrent. The fact that you are allowed to force female slaves and prisoners of war to have sex with you is problematic for a religion that is meant to be for all times. Look at this hadith in Bukhari:

I saw Abu Sa`id and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Sa`id said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Bani Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence."

No need to pull out, go invade foreign lands and nut in as many women as you want, those babies were meant to be born anyway

 

[Kratos]

Yeah it's obviously morally wrong to enslave innocent people.
It became a lucrative business & people took advantage of that.

Here is a problem with that though. Islamically, you are allowed to enslave the people of a conquered territory. This paved the way for concubinage. After all, women were not combatants. Provided that offensive military conquests were justifiable and occurred, aren't the people being invaded by the Muslims technically innocent? Yet they can "lawfully" be enslaved

 

[Kratos]

The fact that slaves who converted to Islam are not automatically emancipated always seemed bizarre to me. For a religion that stresses submission to the one god, it encourages muslim converts to continue in submission to a human master? It is probably a rule established to close a potential loophole that slaves could take advantage of to escape slavery by converting to Islam. This would be a huge blow to the economic benefit of slavery. I don't see any other reason why muslim slaves would remain indentured.