Cush Ina Ham, Inheritor of Noah and Adam

[Havilah]

Are you Muslim? It's in the Quran.

It’s not mentioned in the Quran that all humans are descendants of Noah. However, the Quran mentions that Semites/Semitic peoples are descendants of Noah: Arabs 69:11 and Israelites/Hebrews 17:3:

[17:3] "O˺ descendants of those We carried with Noah ˹in the Ark˺! He was indeed a grateful servant."

The flood of Noah was limited to certain people only. It came to limited people, perhaps a village or a group of villages:

[7:59] We sent Noah to his people. He said: "O my people! worship God! ye have no other god but Him. I fear for you the punishment of a dreadful day!

[26:105] "The people of Noah rejected the messengers..."

The Genesis flood narrative and "that all humans are descendants of Noah" are two errors in the book of Genesis and the Genesis of Pentateuch is a product of the encounter with hellenism. The Pentateuch was written by a team of Jewish scholars around 270-323 BC (The Hellenistic period). The Torah scrolls that was written by Ezra the Scribe was destroyed or lost and a new version of the Torah was needed.

 

[Samaalic Era]

It’s not mentioned in the Quran that all humans are descendants of Noah. However, the Quran mentions that Semites/Semitic peoples are descendants of Noah: Arabs 69:11 and Israelites/Hebrews 17:3:

[17:3] "O˺ descendants of those We carried with Noah ˹in the Ark˺! He was indeed a grateful servant."

The flood of Noah was limited to certain people only. It came to limited people, perhaps a village or a group of villages:

[7:59] We sent Noah to his people. He said: "O my people! worship God! ye have no other god but Him. I fear for you the punishment of a dreadful day!

[26:105] "The people of Noah rejected the messengers..."

The Genesis flood narrative and "that all humans are descendants of Noah" are two errors in the book of Genesis and the Genesis of Pentateuch is a product of the encounter with hellenism. The Pentateuch was written by a team of Jewish scholars around 270-323 BC (The Hellenistic period). The Torah scrolls that was written by Ezra the Scribe was destroyed or lost and a new version of the Torah was needed.

You are correct. Nuh pbuh is not the father of all nations today but only of Hamitic-Semitic peoples today. It is a biblical misconception that everyone died in the flood

 

[Havilah]

You are correct. Nuh pbuh is not the father of all nations today but only of Hamitic-Semitic peoples today. It is a biblical misconception that everyone died in the flood

Yes, further descendants of Noah are also the Indo-Europeans and the Turkic (Azerbaijanis, Uzbeks, Uyghur and Turkmens).

 

[Yahya]

Yes, further descendants of Noah are also the Indo-Europeans and the Turkic (Azerbaijanis, Uzbeks, Uyghur and Turkmens).

So who isn't a descendant of nuh and how do you know?

 

[Cam]

It’s not mentioned in the Quran that all humans are descendants of Noah. However, the Quran mentions that Semites/Semitic peoples are descendants of Noah: Arabs 69:11 and Israelites/Hebrews 17:3:

[17:3] "O˺ descendants of those We carried with Noah ˹in the Ark˺! He was indeed a grateful servant."

The flood of Noah was limited to certain people only. It came to limited people, perhaps a village or a group of villages:

[7:59] We sent Noah to his people. He said: "O my people! worship God! ye have no other god but Him. I fear for you the punishment of a dreadful day!

[26:105] "The people of Noah rejected the messengers..."

The Genesis flood narrative and "that all humans are descendants of Noah" are two errors in the book of Genesis and the Genesis of Pentateuch is a product of the encounter with hellenism. The Pentateuch was written by a team of Jewish scholars around 270-323 BC (The Hellenistic period). The Torah scrolls that was written by Ezra the Scribe was destroyed or lost and a new version of the Torah was needed.

"
“And indeed Nooh (Noah) invoked Us, and We are the Best of those who answer (the request).

And We rescued him and his family from the great distress (i.e. drowning),

And, his progeny, them We made the survivors ".
[as-Saaffaat 37:75-77]

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/130...t-flood-at-the-time-of-nooh-peace-be-upon-him

How do you all conveniently miss this ayah? That dismantles your whole arguement.

 

[Tukraq]

"
“And indeed Nooh (Noah) invoked Us, and We are the Best of those who answer (the request).

And We rescued him and his family from the great distress (i.e. drowning),

And, his progeny, them We made the survivors (i.e. Shem, Ham and Japheth)".
[as-Saaffaat 37:75-77]

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/130...t-flood-at-the-time-of-nooh-peace-be-upon-him

How do you all conveniently miss this ayah? That dismantles your whole arguement.

survivors of the flood, flood wasn't world wide according to islam, also no such thing as ham and japheth in islam so I don't know why those are in quotations, those are fictional people

 

[Cam]

survivors of the flood, flood wasn't world wide according to islam, also no such thing as ham and japheth in islam so I don't know why those are in quotations, those are fictional people

Read the link I posted. There is even tafsiir explaining that.

Qataadah said concerning the words “And, his progeny, them We made the survivors”: All people are among the progeny of Nooh (peace be upon him).

Tafseer al-Qur’an al-‘Azeem by Ibn Katheer, 7/22

Imam Maalik said, narrating from Zayd ibn Aslam: The population at that time filled the plains and mountains…

Allah did not give any of those believers who were with him children or descendants, apart from Nooh (peace be upon him). Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “And, his progeny, them We made the survivors” [as-Saaffaat 37:77]. So everyone on the face of the earth today, of all races, are the sons of Adam who are descended from the three sons of Nooh, namely Saam, Haam and Yaafith (Shem, Ham and Japeth). End quote.

Al-Bidaayah wa’n-Nihaayah, 1/111-114

There is even more proof on that page. If you can disprove it with sources, go ahead. Otherwise, do some research.

 

[Tukraq]

Read the link I posted. There is even tafsiir explaining that.

Qataadah said concerning the words “And, his progeny, them We made the survivors”: All people are among the progeny of Nooh (peace be upon him).

Tafseer al-Qur’an al-‘Azeem by Ibn Katheer, 7/22

Imam Maalik said, narrating from Zayd ibn Aslam: The population at that time filled the plains and mountains…

Allah did not give any of those believers who were with him children or descendants, apart from Nooh (peace be upon him). Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “And, his progeny, them We made the survivors” [as-Saaffaat 37:77]. So everyone on the face of the earth today, of all races, are the sons of Adam who are descended from the three sons of Nooh, namely Saam, Haam and Yaafith (Shem, Ham and Japeth). End quote.

Al-Bidaayah wa’n-Nihaayah, 1/111-114

There is even more proof on that page. If you can disprove it with sources, go ahead. Otherwise, do some research.

where are your sources from? its not in the Quran, just seems like someones interpretation, whose adding non islamic concepts like japeth

 

[Cam]

where are your sources from? its not in the Quran, just seems like someones interpretation, whose adding non islamic concepts like japeth

Where are your sources? Mine are in the link i posted referenced by a sheikh.

 

[Tukraq]

Where are your sources? Mine are in the link i posted referenced by a sheikh.

I don't see your islamic sources, mine is the Quran which you can read from, japheth aint in the Quran, so its your sources that are questionable

 

[Havilah]

"
“And indeed Nooh (Noah) invoked Us, and We are the Best of those who answer (the request).

And We rescued him and his family from the great distress (i.e. drowning),

And, his progeny, them We made the survivors ".
[as-Saaffaat 37:75-77].

وَجَعَلْنَا ذُرِّيَّتَهُ هُمْ الْبَاقِينَ

[And We Made] [His offsprings] [The Survivors]

This verse do not say that "all" people are descended from Noah.


Didn’t you read my post above that the original source of the global flood myth come from the Pentateuch manuscript? It's forgery.

Qataadah said concerning the words “And, his progeny, them We made the survivors”: All people are among the progeny of Nooh (peace be upon him). Tafseer al-Qur’an al-‘Azeem by Ibn Katheer, 7/22

The tafsirs are not scripture and they cannot replace Quran. Tafsirs can contain mistakes or inauthentic information.


According to Dr. Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal: the Tafsir al-Jalalayn, Ibn Kathir, like many tafsirs, incorporates many traditions belonging to the Israiliyyat (Hebrew Targum manuscripts, gnostic manuscripts etc…)

"...it fills in, based largely on the Bible and its Rabbinical and Patristic Commentaries gleaned mostly from early Christian and Jewish converts to Islam (and therefore containing some confused, polemical and apocryphal material), the historical order, details and context of many of the stories in the Quran concerning the Biblical Prophets and Jesus (p.b.u.h.) and his family and disciples. This element is known in Arabic as Isrāīliyyāt (Tales of the Children of Israel) and is generally thought of as not only the most controversial part of Tafsīr al-Jalālayn, but of Tafsīr in general, because of the tenuousness of some of the material involved. However, it is extremely useful for understanding the background and therefore also the meaning (symbolic or otherwise) of many of the tales of the Quran, such that few if any Classical Commentaries have ever able been able to ignore it."

Dr. Mokrane Guezzou, the British-Algerian translator of major Islamic works notes in his translation of the tafsir (Ibn Abbas).

"Another striking feature of this commentary of the Quran is its heavy reliance on the so-called Israiliyyat. Israiliyyat is a term used to refer to those reports and narrations found in commentaries of the Quran, Sufi literature, histories of the prophets, the reports of the storytellers (qussas) as well as other genres of writing like the belle-letters."

https://www.altafsir.com/Books/IbnAbbas.pdf


One question. How can all humans be descendants of prophet Noah when he lived during the Neolithic period?

 

[Crow]

The Prophet Nuh flood was localized and relatively recent so it is impossible for all humans to descend from him.

The Mesopotamians added the flood to their legends and completely missed the moral of the story. They thought God punished them for being noisy/annoying rather than being sick in the head degenerates.

Geologists have found a flood in Iraq from 2900 BCE that might be it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth
"Excavations in Iraq have revealed evidence of localized flooding at Shuruppak (modern Tell Fara, Iraq) and various other Sumerian cities. A layer of riverine sediments, radiocarbon dated to about 2900 BC, interrupts the continuity of settlement, extending as far north as the city of Kish, which took over hegemony after the flood. Polychrome pottery from the Jemdet Nasr period (3000–2900 BC) was discovered immediately below the Shuruppak flood stratum. Other sites, such as Ur, Kish, Uruk, Lagash, and Ninevah, all present evidence of flooding. However, this evidence comes from different time periods. The Shuruppak flood seems to have been a localised event caused through the damming of the Karun River through the spread of dunes, flooding into the Tigris, and simultaneous heavy rainfall in the Nineveh region, spilling across into the Euphrates. In Israel, there is no such evidence of a widespread flood. Given the similarities in the Mesopotamian flood story and the Biblical account, it would seem that they have a common origin in the memories of the Shuruppak account."

 

[Havilah]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth
"Excavations in Iraq have revealed evidence of localized flooding at Shuruppak (modern Tell Fara, Iraq) and various other Sumerian cities. A layer of riverine sediments, radiocarbon dated to about 2900 BC, interrupts the continuity of settlement, extending as far north as the city of Kish, which took over hegemony after the flood. Polychrome pottery from the Jemdet Nasr period (3000–2900 BC) was discovered immediately below the Shuruppak flood stratum. Other sites, such as Ur, Kish, Uruk, Lagash, and Ninevah, all present evidence of flooding. However, this evidence comes from different time periods. The Shuruppak flood seems to have been a localised event caused through the damming of the Karun River through the spread of dunes, flooding into the Tigris, and simultaneous heavy rainfall in the Nineveh region, spilling across into the Euphrates. In Israel, there is no such evidence of a widespread flood. Given the similarities in the Mesopotamian flood story and the Biblical account, it would seem that they have a common origin in the memories of the Shuruppak account."

Interesting. But I doubt it's Noah's flood. The descendants of Noah were already spreading all over the Earth when the flood in Iraq occurred about 2900 BC. The Hamitic tribes (except the tribe of Canaan and some sub-clans of Mizraim and Cush) migrated to Africa, settled and lived there for centuries before the flood in Iraq occured. The descendants of Shem (Proto-Sumerians etc…) lived in Iraq, Iran and Syria when the flood occured. The floodwater didn’t reach southeastern Anatolia where Noah's Ark is said to have landed.

Noah's flood could have occurred in the the Black Sea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

There is the Black Sea Hypothesis, which basically posits that at the end of the latest Ice Age as the sea levels rose as a result of glacial melting, an area of land separating the ocean from the Black Sea gave way, causing a massive migration of water over that break and into the Black Sea. According to the scientists William Ryan and Walter Pitman, this event occurred about 8400 years ago.

There is a lot of evidence that this event happened.

Watch this video. Underwater scientist and archaeologist Robert Ballard searches the Black Sea for signs of an ancient flood.

 

[Havilah]

Another evidence that prophet Noah didn't live before the Neolithic era. The Quran mentions that prophet Noah used nails for the Ark

[54:13] "We carried him on that ˹Ark made˺ of planks and nails,"

Nails was invented during the Neolithic period.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treenail

Boats of the World: From the Stone Age to Medieval Times
https://books.google.se/books?id=rL...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Cam]

Interesting. But I doubt it's Noah's flood. The descendants of Noah were already spreading all over the Earth when the flood in Iraq occurred about 2900 BC. The Hamitic tribes (except the tribe of Canaan and some sub-clans of Mizraim and Cush) migrated to Africa, settled and lived there for centuries before the flood in Iraq occured. The descendants of Shem (Proto-Sumerians etc…) lived in Iraq, Iran and Syria when the flood occured. The floodwater didn’t reach southeastern Anatolia where Noah's Ark is said to have landed.

Noah's flood could have occurred in the the Black Sea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

There is the Black Sea Hypothesis, which basically posits that at the end of the latest Ice Age as the sea levels rose as a result of glacial melting, an area of land separating the ocean from the Black Sea gave way, causing a massive migration of water over that break and into the Black Sea. According to the scientists William Ryan and Walter Pitman, this event occurred about 8400 years ago.

There is a lot of evidence that this event happened.

Watch this video. Underwater scientist and archaeologist Robert Ballard searches the Black Sea for signs of an ancient flood.

Okay, but you're now using biblical terms like Hamites, Cush etc. They're known as Nuh AS's sons even in the Towrah. Either you believe these stories or you don't.

 

[Thalassocracy]

Ham in the Bible (Genesis) was a Lebanese (Canaanite), not an African fellow. This is a common misconception.

Cush in the Bible is often in reference to a town in Iraq called Kish (e.g. Nimrod son of Cush is an Iraqi).

The few correct references to actual Cushites are in Book of Numbers 12:1 and Jeremiah 13:23. Talking about the North Sudanese (Kush).

Canaanites are Phoenician who carry e1b1b

according to Herodotus Phoenicians came from the African Red Sea

 

[Thalassocracy]

 

[Som]

They said he stole it. They re wrote the whole book to make africa and ham cursed. How come they had to come to africa when they was broke then?

God blessed africa. More so than any other continent. The ppl are divided and stupid laakin. The land is blessed tho. Most abundant in resources.

Not true. The bible says ham's son Canaan was the one who was cursed and doesn't make any references to Africa. Canaan was the ancestor of the Canaanites who were the major rivals of the Israelites so this story was used to shit on Canaanites and justify their enslavement, nothing to do with Africans. Europeans and especially Arabs used this story to justify enslavement of black people centuries later