Conservatives are not your friends

hinters

E pluribus unum
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there's definitely a difference between the Western left and people like Stalin, Fidel Castro, Mao.... the West has a completely different version of leftism... I don't know if it's true but there's a belief out there that the CIA engineered the Western version of leftism during the Cold War and it was designed to be a version of leftism that wouldn't be pro-Soviet... the Western leftism is completely different than the Soviet/Cuba style of leftism
But modern leftism is very critical of the CIA and its past actions so that makes no sense.
 

Aurelian

Forza Somalia!
VIP
exactly brother too many mouth breathers here forget their place in this society you are NOT WHITE, you are black, muslim and an immigrant if there is one ethnic group conservatives would have a field day with its us but too many muslims and somalis are getting lulled into a false sense of security
You put it nicely.
 

Omar del Sur

RETIRED
VIP
But modern leftism is very critical of the CIA and its past actions so that makes no sense.

It does make sense. During the Cold War, the USSR was the main geopolitical rival of the United States. So it would be in the US interest to promote a version of leftism that isn't in line with the Soviet version.

But the US now is way more leftist and way less conservative. And the USSR no longer exists. And Russia today has a leader who presents himself as a devout Orthodox Christian.

Before, Communism was this big rival to US hegemony. Nowadays the US isn't really concerned about Communism. The US being this (relatively) conservative, staunch anti-Communist country is a thing of the past.
 

hinters

E pluribus unum
VIP
It does make sense. During the Cold War, the USSR was the main geopolitical rival of the United States. So it would be in the US interest to promote a version of leftism that isn't in line with the Soviet version.

But the US now is way more leftist and way less conservative. And the USSR no longer exists. And Russia today has a leader who presents himself as a devout Orthodox Christian.

Before, Communism was this big rival to US hegemony. Nowadays the US isn't really concerned about Communism. The US being this (relatively) conservative, staunch anti-Communist country is a thing of the past.
The idea that the CIA would make a version of leftism that is critical of its very existence is illogical.

The US not only despised the USSR but Communism as a whole and wanted to wipe it from the world. Which is why Vietnam and Korea happened.
 

Omar del Sur

RETIRED
VIP
also I want to mention that I think the USSR and US both served freemasonry and the Cold War was sort of fake to a certain extent. even during the Cold War, the US sometimes did weird stuff that would benefit the USSR that the US was supposedly against. for example, the US basically handed Nicaragua over to the Comminists.
 

Omar del Sur

RETIRED
VIP
The idea that the CIA would make a version of leftism that is critical of its very existence is illogical.

I don't think the Ilhan Omar, AOC version of leftism is a big threat to the CIA. Ok, they criticize stuff the CIA did during the Cold War... what do they criticize? the CIA doing stuff against leftists... so this criticism just benefits leftism. the Cold War is over, the US is not this staunch anti-Communist country it was in the past. do you really think the US is still this really staunch anti-Communist country? it is pretty easily to show it isn't.

The US not only despised the USSR but Communism as a whole and wanted to wipe it from the world. Which is why Vietnam and Korea happened.

umm yes, that is the Cold War. when did I contradict this (besides the post I made mentioning Masonry)?
 

Omar del Sur

RETIRED
VIP
@ecipde also at what time ever since the 60's was Soviet/Cuba type leftism mainstream in the US?? mainstream US leftism since the 60's has never really been based on that kind of leftism.
 

hinters

E pluribus unum
VIP
I don't think the Ilhan Omar, AOC version of leftism is a big threat to the CIA. Ok, they criticize stuff the CIA did during the Cold War... what do they criticize? the CIA doing stuff against leftists... so this criticism just benefits leftism. the Cold War is over, the US is not this staunch anti-Communist country it was in the past. do you really think the US is still this really staunch anti-Communist country? it is pretty easily to show it isn't.



umm yes, that is the Cold War. when did I contradict this (besides the post I made mentioning Masonry)?
You framed your argument as if they specifically wanted to get rid of the USSR, and not Communism as an ideology in a more broad sense(which is exactly why the CIA didn't invent modern leftism).

You're saying the CIA created it during the cold war when the US was a staunch conservative country. Whether it still is or not is irrelevant to the argument.
 

Omar del Sur

RETIRED
VIP
You framed your argument as if they specifically wanted to get rid of the USSR, and not Communism as an ideology in a more broad sense(which is exactly why the CIA didn't invent modern leftism).

"Fighting communism" just happened to be in the strategic interest of US hegemony during the Cold War. I think it's very naïve if you think the US was anti-Communist just out of pure idealism. Anti-Communism served their strategic interest. The USSR was their biggest rival and countries "going Communist" tended to pull them more towards the Soviet sphere of influence. That's why they were so big on "fighting Communism" during the Cold War and nowadays they don't really care about Communism.

Also the US left and the Cuba/Venezuela left are much closer than they used to be during the Cold War. The US under Biden helped put Lula in power. Relations between different countries and factions aren't necessarily fixed. Relations can change over time.

You're saying the CIA created it during the cold war when the US was a staunch conservative country. Whether it still is or not is irrelevant to the argument.

I never said that. I said it's a theory and it's possible. And I said the CIA may have engineered it. The way the CIA works is not necessarily that they build a particular force from scratch but that they work with some given force. For example, they of course didn't invent Muslims in Afghanistan but they somewhat worked with them against the Soviets.

I don't necessarily think CIA exactly created modern Western leftism but what they could done is for example they could have boosted nonsense like the hippies and undermined more directly USSR-aligned forms of leftism.
 

Omar del Sur

RETIRED
VIP
also btw I think the CIA today and the CIA during the Cold War are way different organizations. to my understanding, the Cold War-era CIA had tons of people who were conservative anti-Communist types, whereas nowadays I think the CIA is a "woke" leftist organization. I don't the CIA shakes in their boots at criticism of their Cold War past because I think the CIA today is a way different organization than it was during that time.
 

hinters

E pluribus unum
VIP
"Fighting communism" just happened to be in the strategic interest of US hegemony during the Cold War. I think it's very naïve if you think the US was anti-Communist just out of pure idealism. Anti-Communism served their strategic interest. The USSR was their biggest rival and countries "going Communist" tended to pull them more towards the Soviet sphere of influence. That's why they were so big on "fighting Communism" during the Cold War and nowadays they don't really care about Communism.

Also the US left and the Cuba/Venezuela left are much closer than they used to be during the Cold War. The US under Biden helped put Lula in power. Relations between different countries and factions aren't necessarily fixed. Relations can change over time.



I never said that. I said it's a theory and it's possible. And I said the CIA may have engineered it. The way the CIA works is not necessarily that they build a particular force from scratch but that they work with some given force. For example, they of course didn't invent Muslims in Afghanistan but they somewhat worked with them against the Soviets.

I don't necessarily think CIA exactly created modern Western leftism but what they could done is for example they could have boosted nonsense like the hippies and undermined more directly USSR-aligned forms of leftism.
So if you didn't believe the theory in the first place why try to rationalize it?

At the end of the day the US is a capitalist country that exploits poorer 3rd world countries, and Communism(and really any from of leftism) directly opposes that.

Maybe the culture war nonsense was invented by them to distract from the real actions they've taken in various countries around the world.
 
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Omar del Sur

RETIRED
VIP
So if you didn't believe the theory in the first place why try to rationalize it?

I'm just saying it's possible.

At the end of the day the US is a capitalist country that exploits poorer 3rd world countries, and Communism(and really any from of leftism) directly opposes that.

I see. I think you've internalized leftist propaganda. Yes, the propaganda loves to talk about "the CIA did this to hurt some poor Third World leftists during the Cold War".

I appreciate the CIA helping anti-Communists deal with commies during the Cold War. I think Pinochet was right to deal with the Communists. The CIA did good things during the Cold War. I feel nothing for all those commies that got sent to jahannam with the help of the CIA. Imo those commies deserved it. I think it's unfortunate that more wasn't done to crush Communists. I don't think the genocide of Communists is necessarily a bad thing and I think in some cases it was postively a good thing- maybe even a heroic thing.

"oh those poor commies" the propaganda exclaims. what the propaganda leaves out is that the CIA isn't some all-powerful organization and that the Communists did not represent the people. what the propaganda leaves out is that the Communists got squashed like bugs because their ideology was unpopular, opposition to them had massive popular support and all the CIA did was help out pre-existing local anti-Communist forces that would already have opposed Communism even if the CIA had never been a factor. the only difference is that thanks to the CIA, those local anti-Communist forces were better equipped to save their nations from the darkness and filth of Communist ideology. and sometimes loyalty to one's Rabb and patriotism to one's country involves doing things that might seem a little brutal.


Maybe the culture war nonsense was invented by the government to distract from the real actions they've taken in various countries around the world.

Real actions they've taken in various countries like trying to push homosexuality in Uganda and put a pro-lgbt candidate in power in Brazil? Raising a rainbow flag in Kabul?

2023 United States is not the US of the Cold War era. US foreign policy of 2023 is not the US foreign policy of the Cold War era. The US isn't fighting the Soviet Union.
 
exactly brother too many mouth breathers here forget their place in this society you are NOT WHITE, you are black, muslim and an immigrant if there is one ethnic group conservatives would have a field day with its us but too many muslims and somalis are getting lulled into a false sense of security
I'm not black though.
 

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This is not me saying liberals are our friend either, but it's clear conservatives are a much larger threat.
Our culture and religion both align with conservatives. We will vote for who gives us the best opportunity to persevere our culture/religion.
 

hinters

E pluribus unum
VIP
I'm just saying it's possible.



I see. I think you've internalized leftist propaganda. Yes, the propaganda loves to talk about "the CIA did this to hurt some poor Third World leftists during the Cold War".

I appreciate the CIA helping anti-Communists deal with commies during the Cold War. I think Pinochet was right to deal with the Communists. The CIA did good things during the Cold War. I feel nothing for all those commies that got sent to jahannam with the help of the CIA. Imo those commies deserved it. I think it's unfortunate that more wasn't done to crush Communists. I don't think the genocide of Communists is necessarily a bad thing and I think in some cases it was postively a good thing- maybe even a heroic thing.

"oh those poor commies" the propaganda exclaims. what the propaganda leaves out is that the CIA isn't some all-powerful organization and that the Communists did not represent the people. what the propaganda leaves out is that the Communists got squashed like bugs because their ideology was unpopular, opposition to them had massive popular support and all the CIA did was help out pre-existing local anti-Communist forces that would already have opposed Communism even if the CIA had never been a factor. the only difference is that thanks to the CIA, those local anti-Communist forces were better equipped to save their nations from the darkness and filth of Communist ideology. and sometimes loyalty to one's Rabb and patriotism to one's country involves doing things that might seem a little brutal.




Real actions they've taken in various countries like trying to push homosexuality in Uganda and put a pro-lgbt candidate in power in Brazil? Raising a rainbow flag in Kabul?

2023 United States is not the US of the Cold War era. US foreign policy of 2023 is not the US foreign policy of the Cold War era. The US isn't fighting the Soviet Union.
It's not propaganda when the government itself admits to all the coups and wars they started. Not just the CIA but the entire US government backing them as well.

For someone who seems to be so vehemently anti government I don't know why the government doing bad things seems to surprise you walaal.

The government is backed and controlled by mega corporations who bribe politicians into making laws that benefit them, which is why I doubt they'd make or promote leftism. You seem to be confusing liberalism with leftism. True leftism would never be promoted by a capitalist country.
 

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