GENETICS Bajuni

[Saciid]

Wondering ab Bajuni DNA and especially the 8 Katwa-Bajuni clans, said to be off Garre Origin. Do they carry high amounts of Somali/Somaloid ancestry?

@Shimbiris @The alchemist @anonimo @Idilinaa @Slickster @Garaad diinle

 

[The alchemist]

Bajuni people might be a mix of Somali/Somaloid (as that Island was first inhabited by such people), and then later mixed with Bantu-majority people, and then probably mixed with Swahili people. Or you have the Bajuni directly mixing with mixed Swahili-speaking people and then some Bantu people here and there over time. I think the average Bajuni, no matter their level of mixing, will have a wider diversity of distinct DNA than the average Somali or Bantu. That's just my guess.

To make any statement about the proportionality of the Somali DNA in the Bajuni is premature in my case in the absence of DNA scores. I have seen a couple of results here and there on random accounts, but I could not make out and delineate the makeup since they seemed recently mixed as well.

 

[Saciid]

Bajuni people might be a mix of Somali/Somaloid (as that Island was first inhabited by such people), and then later mixed with Bantu-majority people, and then probably mixed with Swahili people. Or you have the Bajuni directly mixing with mixed Swahili-speaking people and then some Bantu people here and there over time. I think the average Bajuni, no matter their level of mixing, will have a wider diversity of distinct DNA than the average Somali or Bantu. That's just my guess.

To make any statement about the proportionality of the Somali DNA in the Bajuni is premature in my case in the absence of DNA scores. I have seen a couple of results here and there on random accounts, but I could not make out and delineate the makeup since they seemed recently mixed as well.

What ab Chimwiinis (Sabaki-speakers from Baraawe)? From the tests of Reer Baraawe, could they have been a Sabaki group who migrated up to Baraawe and then got submerged by ethnic Somalis and Gibil Cads (Hatimi & Biida), with Gibil Cads and Lower cast Reer Baraawe retaining some of their DNA? The consistent description of the town as Berber as early as 1154 AD would suggest it happened really early

I'm personally utterly unconvinced by the idea of the language coming from Arabs (Hatimi or Biida) sailing up and down the coast and bringing it to Baraawe. Derek Nurse reconstruction of the original speakers being Northern Swahiloids who splitt of the rest at 800s AD in Lamu area and migrating and founding Baraawe seems more plausible.

 

[Som]

What ab Chimwiinis (Sabaki-speakers from Baraawe)? From the tests of Reer Baraawe, could they have been a Sabaki group who migrated up to Baraawe and then got submerged by ethnic Somalis and Gibil Cads (Hatimi & Biida), with Gibil Cads and Lower cast Reer Baraawe retaining some of their DNA? The consistent description of the town as Berber as early as 1154 AD would suggest it happened really early

I'm personally utterly unconvinced by the idea of the language coming from Arabs (Hatimi or Biida) sailing up and down the coast and bringing it to Baraawe. Derek Nurse reconstruction of the original speakers being Northern Swahiloids who splitt of the rest at 800s AD in Lamu area and migrating and founding Baraawe seems more plausible.

Some scholars suggest that Swahili like populations lived as far as Mogadishu and then were absorbed mainly by the Benadiris. I think Barawe is a unique case, it's a Swahili speaking island surrounded by somalis, maybe the entire coast at some point had Swahili like populations that only survived in Barawe

 

[Saciid]

Some scholars suggest that Swahili like populations lived as far as Mogadishu and then were absorbed mainly by the Benadiris. I think Barawe is a unique case, it's a Swahili speaking island surrounded by somalis, maybe the entire coast at some point had Swahili like populations that only survived in Barawe

Maxamed Cali Nuux stated that there's no substratum in "costal Somalis" (Benaadiri dialects), so I would dismiss Mog & Marka having Swahili origin for the meantime. Benaadiris, btw, is an identity marker based on region (Baraawe, Mog, Marka, Gendershe & Jasiira), not a synonym for cadcads in Benaadir as many here belive.

But Swahili-like people being more substantial in Benaadir, especially in Baraawe area, in the past is a possibility. The few records we have of early Benaadir seems to discourage that tho

 

[Som]

Maxamed Cali Nuux stated that there's no substratum in "costal Somalis" (Benaadiri dialects), so I would dismiss Mog & Marka having Swahili origin for the meantime. Benaadiris, btw, is an identity marker based on region (Baraawe, Mog, Marka, Gendershe & Jasiira), not a synonym for cadcads in Benaadir as many here belive.

But Swahili-like people being more substantial in Benaadir, especially in Baraawe area, in the past is a possibility. The few records we have of early Benaadir seems to discourage that tho

I think Cerulli (Italian scholar) had this opinion about a possible pre Somali Bantu population in Xamar but there's no evidence. I think though it's a bid weird that Barawe is the only Swahili speaking town and far from coastal Kenya. Maybe these Swahili like population got absorbed quickly by the cad cads and that's why they weren't mentioned a lot

 

[Shimbiris]

Some scholars suggest that Swahili like populations lived as far as Mogadishu and then were absorbed mainly by the Benadiris. I think Barawe is a unique case, it's a Swahili speaking island surrounded by somalis, maybe the entire coast at some point had Swahili like populations that only survived in Barawe

The linguistics imparts a completely different image:



It seems very evident that the Banaadir was always Somaloid and the Swahilis are a small and later introduction mostly isolated to the south. The origin myths of most of the towns impart as much as well. The Somaloid groups always being recounted as the native element the ajanabis mingled with, for example. Historical accounts back this up as well. As far back as the 1100s or so the area was always part of Bilad al-Barbar rather than Bilad al-Zanj. The mouth of the Jubba and Shebelle rivers roughly acting as a border.

 

[Som]

The linguistics imparts a completely different image:



It seems very evident that the Banaadir was always Somaloid and the Swahilis are a small and later introduction mostly isolated to the south. The origin myths of most of the towns impart as much as well. The Somaloid groups always being recounted as the native element the ajanabis mingled with, for example. Historical accounts back this up as well. As far back as the 1100s or so the area was always part of Bilad al-Barbar rather than Bilad al-Zanj. The mouth of the Jubba and Shebelle rivers roughly acting as a border.

Ok. My question still stands though. Why only Barawe has a Swahili dialect while other cities like Xamar and Merca have no Swahili speakers? Baraawe is essentially similar to Merca and Mogadishu in it's development: Somalis+ Arab migrants form a city state. The main difference though is their language and the Swahili population must have been very prominent if even Arabs and Somali/Arabs adopted their language. Where did these Swahilis come from? And why did they settle only in Barawe apparently?

 

[Som]

The linguistics imparts a completely different image:



It seems very evident that the Banaadir was always Somaloid and the Swahilis are a small and later introduction mostly isolated to the south. The origin myths of most of the towns impart as much as well. The Somaloid groups always being recounted as the native element the ajanabis mingled with, for example. Historical accounts back this up as well. As far back as the 1100s or so the area was always part of Bilad al-Barbar rather than Bilad al-Zanj. The mouth of the Jubba and Shebelle rivers roughly acting as a border.

Anyway I still think somalia were the native population of the area. My suggestion is that Swahilis were huge in numbers and disappeared probably by assimilation and only survived I'm Barawe for some reason

 

[Shimbiris]

Ok. My question still stands though. Why only Barawe has a Swahili dialect while other cities like Xamar and Merca have no Swahili speakers? Baraawe is essentially similar to Merca and Mogadishu in it's development: Somalis+ Arab migrants form a city state. The main difference though is their language and the Swahili population must have been very prominent if even Arabs and Somali/Arabs adopted their language. Where did these Swahilis come from? And why did they settle only in Barawe apparently?

Based on the DNA of Cadcads and even the censes we have from the 19th century I think this image needs to cease. It doesn't appear that simple. It was clearly a wide mix of immigrants who were attracted to the trade of the Banaadir. Indians (all Cadcads seem to come out ~20% Desi), Arabians, Egyptians and even far-fetched groups like Uzbeks. The old narrative of "Somalis + Arabs" doesn't seem to hold up for the genesis of Cadcads.

As for your question, walaal, I recall the linguist in that paper pretty much explains the presence of the Bajuni and Chimwini and why they seem so small and fragmentary. They were probably in part just attracted immigrants who were welcomed by the Tunni the same way as all the other wide smattering of ajanabis rather than people with any significant overland presence.

 

[Saciid]

I think Cerulli (Italian scholar) had this opinion about a possible pre Somali Bantu population in Xamar but there's no evidence. I think though it's a bid weird that Barawe is the only Swahili speaking town and far from coastal Kenya. Maybe these Swahili like population got absorbed quickly by the cad cads and that's why they weren't mentioned a lot

Cerulli's theory of Bantu populations preceding Cushitic ones is completely outdated. And as I said before, there's no proof of Swahiloids outside of Baraawe.

The linguistics imparts a completely different image:



It seems very evident that the Banaadir was always Somaloid and the Swahilis are a small and later introduction mostly isolated to the south. The origin myths of most of the towns impart as much as well. The Somaloid groups always being recounted as the native element the ajanabis mingled with, for example. Historical accounts back this up as well. As far back as the 1100s or so the area was always part of Bilad al-Barbar rather than Bilad al-Zanj. The mouth of the Jubba and Shebelle rivers roughly acting as a border.

That article literally gives Chimwiini-speaking bantus the credit for Baraawe. Also, while oral stories and written evidence by far away Arab men are important evidence, they're not absolute and further research could reveal Baraawe's Bantu heritage (and develop it's Linguistic Bantu heritage)

 

[Shimbiris]

That article literally gives Chimwiini-speaking bantus the credit for Baraawe. Also, while oral stories and written evidence by far away Arab men are important evidence, they're not absolute and further research could reveal Baraawe's Bantu heritage (and develop it's Linguistic Bantu heritage)

I've read it and it plainly states that the native element of the region before the Swahili migrants were groups like the Tunni. And I trust the word of people who'd actually been to the Banaadir like Ibn Battuta. Not to mention that it's pretty reliable when like a dozen different sources of either Arab, Chinese and Portuguese origin from like 1100 to 1500 all point to the same narrative of the place being "Barbara" or generally not Bantu and clearly Somaloid.

 

[Saciid]

I've read it and it plainly states that the native element of the region before the Swahili migrants were groups like the Tunni. And I trust the word of people who'd actually been to the Banaadir like Ibn Battuta. Not to mention that it's pretty reliable when like a dozen different sources of either Arab, Chinese and Portuguese origin from like 1100 to 1500 all point to the same narrative of the place being "Barbara" or generally not Bantu and clearly Somaloid.

I'm not talking ab Mog, but Chimwiini speaking Baraawe. And the scource heavily implies that they moved into Somali lands and founded Baraawe.

 

[Som]

Based on the DNA of Cadcads and even the censes we have from the 19th century I think this image needs to cease. It doesn't appear that simple. It was clearly a wide mix of immigrants who were attracted to the trade of the Banaadir. Indians (all Cadcads seem to come out ~20% Desi), Arabians, Egyptians and even far-fetched groups like Uzbeks. The old narrative of "Somalis + Arabs" doesn't seem to hold up for the genesis of Cadcads.

As for your question, walaal, I recall the linguist in that paper pretty much explains the presence of the Bajuni and Chimwini and why they seem so small and fragmentary. They were probably in part just attracted immigrants who were welcomed by the Tunni the same way as all the other wide smattering of ajanabis rather than people with any significant overland presence.

I agree. The point is that there's a lot we don't know. Where did the soutuasian DNA come from? We know the only foreigners in Somalia were mainly Arab and occasionally Persian. Southasians came recently during colonial times but I'm not sure if that is the source of the cad cad Indian ancestry

 

[Shimbiris]

I'm not talking ab Mog, but Chimwiini speaking Baraawe. And the scource heavily implies that they moved into Somali lands and founded Baraawe.

Perhaps but it never states that and it clearly states that Somaloid groups like the Tunni are the more native element.

I agree. The point is that there's a lot we don't know. Where did the soutuasian DNA come from? We know the only foreigners in Somalia were mainly Arab and occasionally Persian. Southasians came recently during colonial times but I'm not sure if that is the source of the cad cad Indian ancestry

They were present in the census of Xamar in the 19th century alongside Arabs as a comparably small minority and that wouldn't have been due to the British. Indians were big tradesmen along the Somali and Arabian coasts with or without British influence, from what I've seen. They were everywhere and often more dominant on the seas than both Arabs and Somalis. I wouldn't be shocked if they were around even during the Middle-Ages.

 

[Hamzza]

Maxamed Cali Nuux stated that there's no substratum in "costal Somalis" (Benaadiri dialects), so I would dismiss Mog & Marka having Swahili origin for the meantime. Benaadiris, btw, is an identity marker based on region (Baraawe, Mog, Marka, Gendershe & Jasiira), not a synonym for cadcads in Benaadir as many here belive.

Is there a Coptic substratum in the Egyptian-Arabic dialect?

There is Swahili influence even in places north of Barawe for example, Munghiya which is a village between Marka and Mog has a Bantu name and we all know the historical quarter of Shingaani in Mogadishu. Also, Arabic sources as late as the 16th century refer to Mogadishu as being part of the land of Zanj instead of the land of Somali.

 

[Garaad diinle]

Is there a Coptic substratum in the Egyptian-Arabic dialect?

There is Swahili influence even in places north of Barawe for example, Munghiya which is a village between Marka and Mog has a Bantu name and we all know the historical quarter of Shingaani in Mogadishu. Also, Arabic sources as late as the 16th century refer to Mogadishu as being part of the land of Zanj instead of the land of Somali.

What does munghiya means?

 

[Hamzza]

What does munghiya means?

I don't know walaahi but it sounds Bantu to me. And some scholars hypothesizing Bantu presence in Southern Somalia used it as evidence.

 

[anonimo]

Wondering ab Bajuni DNA and especially the 8 Katwa-Bajuni clans, said to be off Garre Origin. Do they carry high amounts of Somali/Somaloid ancestry?

@Shimbiris @The alchemist @anonimo @Idilinaa @Slickster @Garaad diinle

Ain't seen much of tbh, just one unrepresentative result. If I was to hazard a guess, they probably have more Bantu ancestry than Somali going by the ones I have seen in real life, and their sociolinguistic identity.

 

[The alchemist]

I agree. The point is that there's a lot we don't know. Where did the soutuasian DNA come from? We know the only foreigners in Somalia were mainly Arab and occasionally Persian. Southasians came recently during colonial times but I'm not sure if that is the source of the cad cad Indian ancestry

If you read the descriptions of archeological excavations from Somaliland, you'd know that there were ancient to medieval long-distance trade typological assemblages along our historical coastal strategic points. Things found in Somali soil came from all the large empires, India included. We have luxury wares from India attesting to trade with time-depth past the 1st millennium A.D. Periplus stated that natives imported commodities from India 2000 years ago. To the basic common sense, one is correct in assuming such maritime relationships with land-based supply chains of worldwide connections existed centuries before Periplus Maris Erythraei.

Indians had been to our lands long before the ancestors of those in the southern Somali coastal cities. So their presence is not a mystery at all. It seems later Indians followed the over thousand-year prior, long-established sea-routing traditions within the Western Indian Ocean system and settled in modest proportions by individual settlers, contrary to a picture of a surging trend of large family units that came and shaped the history there. Indians [insert any foreign group] became a later part of a pre-existing, continual story that newcomers assimilated into and conceivably helped diachronically transform in a minor form in history post-integration in the Konfur coasts.