FGM is waajib according to shafi'i madhab. Some say this refers only to removal of 'some skin', others view it as something more drastic. Female circumcision and fgm are used interchangeably by most people. In any case it's fairly immaterial to the conversation overall, as fgm encompasses all forms of mutilation, including whatever you view female circumcision to be.
At last, we've made it. FGM on BuzzFeed
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FGM is waajib according to shafi'i madhab. Some say this refers only to removal of 'some skin', others view it as something more drastic. Female circumcision and fgm are used interchangeably by most people. In any case it's fairly immaterial to the conversation overall, as fgm encompasses all forms of mutilation, including whatever you view female circumcision to be.
Hafez
VIP
Why are you lying? FGM is haraam in all madhabs. There's a difference between FGM and female circumcision. Though Imam Shafi (RH) considered female circumcision to be compulsory, there's an ijmaa' (consensus) that it's only mubah (permissible).
In Maratib al-Ijma' p. 157, Ibn Hazm cited that there is an established consensus (ar: ijma') that circumcision for women is permissible. This ijma' is related by other scholars too. In the Sacred Law, ijma' is a binding proof, and it is not permissible for any scholar to go against it.
In Nihayah 8/35, after mentioning the official position of the Shafi'i School, that circumcision is obligatory for both men and women, Ramli defines what it means for a woman. He says that it is the removal of some skin from the clitoral prepuce. This is also mentioned by Ibn Hajar in Tuhfah 9/198.
In these passages, the word "bazr" is mentioned. Sahib al-Misbah al-Munir mentions that the"bazr" in circumcision is the prepuce. Thus, what is intended is a part of the prepuce surrounding the clitoris and not the clitoris itself.
I'm sorry, but FGM has nothing to do with the Shafi'I madhab or Islam for that matter. It's very obvious that this is a pre-Islamic practice.
No.
I am not lying. FGM encompasses all forms of mutilation, including whatever you consider 'female cirmcumcision'. If you are upset that 'Female Circumcision' is considered FGM, you'll just have to get over it.
Also when you say 'it is only permissable' what you are saying is misleading. Everyone accept that it is at the very least permissable, and it is therefore not acceptable to say it is haraam and that is what is meant by 'In the Sacred Law, ijma' is a binding proof, and it is not permissible for any scholar to go against it.'. Nonetheless shafi'i madhab considers it to be waajib (proof in your own evidence), others do not. None of them are going against the accepted positon that it is permissable.
Hafez
VIP
Is this girl trying to argue with me about fiqh?
You just got the part that I've highlighted out of your ass didn't you? You don't know anything about ahkaam, please don't embarrass yourself. When a consensus regarding an issue is established, it's not permissble to go against it either way. For instance, we know that using the siwaak is a Sunnah, I can't write my own fatwa and claim it's fardh (mandatory) upon the people.
Nonetheless, ALL scholars make mistakes. Indefinite taqliid (practically blind-following) is not allowed if there's a stronger evidence established against a particular stance.
Amr ibn Al-As reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “If a judge makes a ruling, striving to apply his reasoning (ijtihad) and he is correct, then he will have two rewards. If a judge makes a ruling, striving to apply his reasoning and he is mistaken, then he will have one reward.”
Source: Sahih Bukhari 6919, Sahih Muslim 1716
There's also a concept in Islam called 'urf (customs) that may affect the rulings of certain aspects of fiqh. It takes a highly qualified religious scholar to deal with these issues. Don't be so naive and short-sighted.
Sure, FGM may encompass all forms of 'mutilation' but on this thread, we're clearly talking about the FGM that Somalis practice as opposed to female circumcision according to the Shafi'i madhab (which is not harmful at all, it's similar to removing the foreskin of a male). I made a distinction between the two for the purpose of explaining this issue. If A is not C but both C & A are B, do we lump A and C together when explaining the difference between the two (i.e. refer to both as B)?
Is this girl trying to argue with me about fiqh?
You just got the part that I've highlighted out of your ass didn't you? You don't know anything about ahkaam, please don't embarrass yourself. When a consensus regarding an issue is established, it's not permissble to go against it either way. For instance, we know that using the siwaak is a Sunnah, I can't write my own fatwa and claim it's fardh (mandatory) upon the people.
Nonetheless, ALL scholars make mistakes. Indefinite taqliid (practically blind-following) is not allowed if there's a stronger evidence established against a particular stance.
Amr ibn Al-As reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “If a judge makes a ruling, striving to apply his reasoning (ijtihad) and he is correct, then he will have two rewards. If a judge makes a ruling, striving to apply his reasoning and he is mistaken, then he will have one reward.”
Source: Sahih Bukhari 6919, Sahih Muslim 1716
There's also a concept in Islam called 'urf (customs) that may affect the rulings of certain aspects of fiqh. It takes a highly qualified religious scholar to deal with these issues. Don't be so naive and short-sighted.
Sure, FGM may encompass all forms of 'mutilation' but on this thread, we're clearly talking about the FGM that Somalis practice as opposed to female circumcision according to the Shafi'i madhab (which is not harmful at all, it's similar to removing the foreskin of a male). I made a distinction between the two for the purpose of explaining this issue. If A is not C but both C & A are B, do we lump A and C together when explaining the difference between the two?
I don't particular care about your religious business, I'm not muslim. In any case female circumcision = fgm (I'm glad you finally agree), and according the shafi'i madhab it is obligatory, it's the position of the entire school of thought not just one sheikh. Nothing you are saying is proof against what I have written here. But carry on with your emojis.
Nothing. FGM is all different types of mutilation, this includes 'female circumcision'. 'Female circumcision' is the removal of the clitoral hood.
That's exactly right.
VixR
Veritas
Look at my NSFW chart lol. FGM is all of that, but they're referring to #1 as "female circumcision" specifically.
Hafez
VIP
Yes, but there's consensus that suggests otherwise. Consensus > opinions of scholars from a school of thought.
Yes it is proof against what you've written. You initially tried to pass off the pharaonic practice of removing the clitoris as something that has been mandated in the Shafi'i school of thought. On this thread, we're clearly talking about the FGM practiced by the Somali people.
With that being said, why do you suggest that female circumcision should be abolished?
> Yes, but there's consensus that suggests otherwise. Consensus > opinions of scholars from a school of thought.
Ok, we're agreed, as that is all I ever wrote/cared about. Consensus doesn't change the position of the shafi'i madhab.
Yes it is proof against what you've written. You initially tried to pass off the pharoanic practice of removing the clitoris as something that has been mandated in the Shafi'i school of thought. On this thread, we're clearly talking about the FGM practiced by the Somali people.
No it is not. Female circumcision is fgm, which is mandatory in the shafi'i shcool of thought. I didn't try to pass anything off as anything else. FGM is Fgm to me.
> With that being said, why do you suggest that female circumcision should be abolished?
I by and large don't care what people do with their bodies. If you want to cut your dick or your ears off, or poke your eyes out, or remove your toes, I really don't care. What is important is that children are not mutilated. These are decisions adults should make for themselves.
VixR
Veritas
Shafi'i is the predominant madhab followed by Somalis, hence its unfortunately the only relevant view in this discussion (not the 'consensus' you speak of that merely outlines it as 'permissible').
It explicitly states FGM as mandatory, and since, culturally, the FGM practiced by Somalis is of the Type 3 kind (not the Type 1 you advocate), that was the type that widely manifested itself in Somalia and surrounding areas.
You'll notice religion and culture play off each in similar ways on varying other subjects.
It explicitly states FGM as mandatory, and since, culturally, the FGM practiced by Somalis is of the Type 3 kind (not the Type 1 you advocate), that was the type that widely manifested itself in Somalia and surrounding areas.
You'll notice religion and culture play off each in similar ways on varying other subjects.
Hafez
VIP
Yh but a Muslim can and should follow the consensus when it contradicts an opinion from their madhab. Certain Shafi'i scholars were of the opinion that it's only permissible too.
People perform these surgical procedures on their offspring while they're infants for a reason. It's harmful to carry these procedures out to adults.
Why does it concern you what people do to their children (especially if it's something harmless)? I'd understand if it was something harmful, I would be firmly opposed to it too (like I am regarding the pharaonic style FGM).
If something is in fact for the child's benefit, like a medical procedure on the suggestion of a medical professional, I naturally would want for the children to receive whatever medical help they require.
Pretty simple really. I think it is immoral to wilfully mutilate children's bodies, no matter how 'small' or 'insignificant' a mutilation is. I don't believe children are their parent's property for them physical, and more importantly, permanently alter their bodies according to their own aesthetic wishes.
Also, adult circumcision is not of a particular risk to justify doing it to children instead. It is an option for adults to choose and is relatively safe in the same way all external procedures are. Perhaps it is riskier as an adult, but the risks remain relatively small.
Somali psycho
~Bakool~
This is nothing but an attention whoring campaign to solicit sympathy from cadan feminists. Look at this old naag shaming Somalis instead of actually doing something effective to stop FGM. 
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