Aren't Biofuels the actual future?

[Shimbiris]

Renewables like solar and wind always seemed a spook to me. Particularly solar. Those panels have a shelf-life (20-30 years) and most of them don't get recycled or are more expensive to recycle so they just end up in landfills where they potentially leach toxic crap like lead and cadmium into our groundwater and soils. Not to mention that they're heavily dependent on things like batteries and, well, as a result things like lithium that are not a renewable resource, nor are a lot of the rare metals and elements used. Wind is better but isn't consistently reliable and has a similar battery dependence issue, if I'm not mistaken.

In contrast, biofuels, if made cheap and efficient enough, can quite easily take over the current fossil fuel infrastructure with simply some retrofitting while being reliable all year round in a similar manner. Plant matter in general really feels like the answer from plant-based plastics to things like hemp-steel:

Yet this stuff doesn't get half the R&D solar and wind do. Almost feels like the gaalo are chasing bum solutions to fossil fuels on purpose. What do you guys think?

 

[Sol]

A lot of CHP (combined heat and power) plants already use "biofuels" in this case being methane from agricultural ( used in plants that use agricultural feedstock such as manures, crops, and crop residues) or from waste waste (can make a case for it not being "biofuel" but falls under biogas so its biofuel) plants that use urban, commercial ,and industrial waste streams as feed.

Reason wind/farm is given more R&D due to the fuel source itself being widly available and in turn being very easy to increase in capacity as the only thing you need to provide is the equipment itself with no hassle regarding transporting the fuel over. As for your point regarding recycling that tends to be the case for older module but I agree with you that they are a hassle now since they weren't certified by orgs such as PV Cycle for recycling so decomissioning them can be quite bothersome. For newer models its a different story with lifespans of 30 years not being uncommon now and every reputale solar module manufacturer being PV Cycle certified. Most developers consider the decomissioning cost as well in their project and from what I've seen some locations (such as the US) local authorities require a minimum bond/deposit set aside to covere decomissioning activities regardless of how much it will cost. Resalvaging modules can even be a profit with quite a large amount of revenue returned from reselling.

Bit of a long winded answer but yea in terms of electricity wind/solar trumps biofuels easily. Transportation most of the industry is moving towards e-cars which require electricity so we fall back to wind/solar again. Where biofuels do excel is heating (and small scale power generation) however as due to the nature of these plants they can be placed remotely anywhere with no access to a grid and supply heat and power to a local community, university, hospital, or large office block.

 

[Shimbiris]

Reason wind/farm is given more R&D due to the fuel source itself being widly available and in turn being very easy to increase in capacity as the only thing you need to provide is the equipment itself with no hassle regarding transporting the fuel over. As for your point regarding recycling that tends to be the case for older module but I agree with you that they are a hassle now since they weren't certified by orgs such as PV Cycle for recycling so decomissioning them can be quite bothersome. For newer models its a different story with lifespans of 30 years not being uncommon now and every reputale solar module manufacturer being PV Cycle certified. Most developers consider the decomissioning cost as well in their project and from what I've seen some locations (such as the US) local authorities require a minimum bond/deposit set aside to covere decomissioning activities regardless of how much it will cost. Resalvaging modules can even be a profit with quite a large amount of revenue returned from reselling.

The main problem to me is that the stuff these "renewables" are made of and dependent on are not remotely renewable. Metals are not endless nor are all the other rare earth elements they use. Even Iron will someday become infeasible to keep mining and we'll be reduced to digging up landfills and salvaging old and unused structures but even that, very far into the future, may outlive its welcome. You cannot endlessly recycle things. The efficiency reduces over-time.

The thing about biofuels and using plants to replace things like steel and plastic is that the resource literally grows out of the ground. It is actually renewable. Imagine rebar that grows out of the ground, saaxiib:

Hemp can be used to make rebar that’s just as strong as steel

This new rebar could help buildings stand longer and create less pollution.

www.fastcompany.com

I've even read up on research in its infancy that suggests we can make wiring out of plants. I think this is the real sustainable future, walaal. Replacing fuels plastics, concrete, most metals and even various other elements where possible with plant-based solutions and overwhelmingly reducing the use of plants for human consumption then re-gearing agriculture and forestry more toward this more technological use. I think one big reason no one's thought about this much is because they're too concerned with wasting plants on giving people diabetes and malnutrition for profit.

 

[Sol]

The main problem to me is that the stuff these "renewables" are made of and dependent on are not remotely renewable. Metals are not endless nor are all the other rare earth elements they use. Even Iron will someday become infeasible to keep mining and we'll be reduced to digging up landfills and salvaging old and unused structures but even that, very far into the future, may outlive its welcome. You cannot endlessly recycle things. The efficiency reduces over-time.

The thing about biofuels and using plants to replace things like steel and plastic is that the resource literally grows out of the ground. It is actually renewable. Imagine rebar that grows out of the ground, saaxiib:

Hemp can be used to make rebar that’s just as strong as steel

This new rebar could help buildings stand longer and create less pollution.

www.fastcompany.com

I've even read up on research in its infancy that suggests we can make wiring out of plants. I think this is the real sustainable future, walaal. Replacing fuels plastics, concrete, most metals and even various other elements where possible with plant-based solutions and overwhelmingly reducing the use of plants for human consumption then re-gearing agriculture and forestry more toward this more technological use. I think one big reason no one's thought about this much is because they're too concerned with wasting plants on giving people diabetes and malnutrition for profit.

We are no where near seeing the materials used for pv modules run out. Silicon is the most common material in the Earths crust, aluminium is easily recycleable and in fact most aluminium ever mined is still in circulation due to recycling. Rare earth metals (which aren't really rare anyway and instead the main issue being the extraction methods being toxic to the environment) are rarely, no pun intended, used in renewables with the only I can think of being some offshore wind turbines that use a permenant magnet made from rare earth metals such as neodymium.

Everything depends on bankability its all fine and dandy that research is being conducted on such tech but in order to meet their carbon emission reduction goals there is no way for nations to do via unproven technology at a national level. How will you subsitute hunders of megawatts or even gigawatts of energy with such technology that is still in its infancy? Developers will never gamble their projects on such technology that is still in the research state when they already have other proven sources of renewables that have been studied, developed, and built for decades.

That is not to say such technology should be thrown to the side and ignored of course not. But just like solar in its infancy it will have to sit on the side whilst other proven systems are used at an industrial scale until there are proven case studies that this technology can either be slowly embedded into grids and if successful maybe even contribute to a large portion of energy generation.

Regarding your last point, no one will consider plants being used for wiring as so much development and research has already gone into cabling over the past decades (both low, medium, and high voltage) to ensure power capacity doesn't diminish due to thermal constraints from being burried, exposed to the environment, or load etc and suggesting this is taken up by plant based wiring is a dream at this stage. The amount of wiring already used is insane for even small scale development introducing wires made from plants which we dont even know if it can satisfy power distribution in the MW scale (let alone the lifespan and if it needs to be dug up introducing more headaches). The world runs on proven technology and if you propose something that is still in its infancy you will be laughed out of the room. This has nothing to do with some plants being used to reduce the health of the population thats an entirely different sector that has nothing to do with the power sector itself.

You have to remember changes to anything in the power sector is something that takes years due to regulations hell the projects I work on require a two year notice before they can even be considered to be connected to the grid never mind the time it takes to get LPA permits, planning submission, ecological assessments, flood risk assessments, technological constraints etc and wanting to change any small part of this will have to be considered in regards to the entirity of the project. No project will risk using unproven technology and those that do are very small scale we're taking sub MW maybe even only a few hundred kW. The future is bright new tech (especially in the battery storage industry with tech like iron flow batteries becoming more developed and mature) is always coming out of development and entering commercial trials no one knows what the industry will look like in 2 years let alone decades into the future. Who knows maybe we will actually have more biological integrated power systems (biological pv systems are already in research) in the near future.

 

[Shimbiris]

The world runs on proven technology and if you propose something that is still in its infancy you will be laughed out of the room.

I didn't say the shift should be made now or proposed as such, walaal. I'm simply saying more research and money should be pumped into this in favor of the other stuff so that it can slowly become more efficient and proved as a concept then adopted someday because, like it or not, all these materials renewables run on are not renewable. Doesn't matter if they can be salvaged and reused for 1,000 years; they will run out or become infeasible to use someday. Will they not? So my question to you is, long-term, do you not see the efficacy in slowly shifting to actual renewable resources if it's at all possible? Things that "grow on trees", as they say.

Also, since you seem quite knowledgeable about all this... are you aware of any solutions for industrial agriculture once the fossil fuels run out? I'm really curious as to what they're going to do there. Modern agriculture basically runs on fossil fuels then there's also the issue of big tanker ships and planes. It's infeasible to ever make those electrical so what's gonna happen there? Wouldn't biofuels be the refuge?

 

[Hargeysa]

@Shimbiris I believe the whole reason the world is desperate on moving away from fossil fuels is due to their greenhouse gas emissions, especially co2.

Biofuels are cool and all, and they're already being used in eu, but they produce similar amounts of CO2 per energy unit to petroleum, so it won't help anyone reach the greenhouse gas reductions in the Paris agreement.

Also, in long term, renewables are a better bet. Pretty much all that needs to be improved is battery tech for renewables to become mainstream.

 

[Hargeysa]

It's true, the initial mining and processing of metals has serious environmental costs, laakin metal recycling is usually excellent - like 95%+. Solar panels are recycled here in the UK, because laws prohibit them from going into landfills. But if proper legislation and regulation doesn't exist, I can appreciate that the trace toxic metals can do environmental damage.

What needs to be done is this:

Any time a new technology is established, regulators need to think about the potential consequences in the long term, and mitigate against this. This would have saved us a lot of trouble wallahi.

For renewables, they need to develop ways of widely recycling lithium ion batteries, and perhaps explore alternatives to rare metals such as lithium (e.g. sodium ion batteries).