All nomadic people are cursed, clan states/politics aren’t unique to Somalia

Central Asian people are nomadic like Somalis, so I wanted to see if they have clan issues in their country and of course, they do.

This is one country in Central Asia:
“Detailed data on clan identity in Tajikistan is lacking. However, Tajiks also use the term klan. The Tajik regime has publicly denounced the political influence of clans. Tajikistan was dragged into a bloody civil war over the failure of a pact between the clans. Another pact ended the conflict and, with the support of Russia, the country has been able to establish a new rule. A minority clan presently holds power but depends entirely on Russian support.”

So a langaab clan currently rules Tajikistan only due to Russian support.

Uzbekistan:
“The most powerful clan in Uzbekistan is the Samarkand clan, which has traditionally controlled the Interior Ministry; Uzbek President Islam Karimovwas a member of the Samarkand clan, which is based in Samarkand, Bukhara, Dzhizak and Navoi, and is allied with the weaker Jizak clan. The Tashkent clan, which controls the National Security Service (SNB), is allied with the Ferghana clan (sometimes considered to be the same clan), and the Khorezm clan which is based in Khorezm and southern Karakalpakistan. The Tashkent clan is based in Tashkent and in Ferghana, Andijan and Namangan through its alliance.”

So the country is divided by clans, President is one clan, and the security services are controlled by another clan.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Central Asia has been on the verge of conflict due to clan politics:

Since 1991, Central Asians themselves have repeatedly worried aloud about the corruption and destabilization sown by klannovaya politika (“clan politics”). In the weaker Central Asian states, a clan assumes ever greater political importance because the bureaucracies cannot adequately provide for the needs of the society and the formal institutions lack legitimisation. After the fall of the USSR, the informal agreements between the clans were the only means with which to stabilize the new Republics. Aside from the eventual presence of external threats that could bring the otherwise isolated groups to collaborate with each other and a certain equilibrium between the more important clans, the essential condition that would permit the creation of such informal agreements was the identification of a leader capable of mediating the interests of all of the clans. Once they enter into effect, the agreements between clans ensure the durability of the State for as long as this last protects the clan’s interests.[3]

In a situation of great economic uncertainty, the clans become strong competitors to the State and, being more efficient in providing for the needs of their members, the clans become more powerful and influential than the State institutions. In order to meet all of the requests of their affiliates, the clans must subtract an ever growing quantity of resources from the State. Acting informally, competing clans will divide the central state’s offices and resources among themselves. The upshot is a regime that might best be called a clan hegemony. While such a regime will hardly be a democracy, neither will it be a classically authoritarian political order.[4] Currently the clan-élites select the president, (the five States of Central Asia are all Presidential Republics), who must be an ombudsman for the clans’ interests. These clan-élites may be regional governors and kolkhoz (collective farm) chairmen, or simply village elders. Almost all of the powers are concentrated in the hands of the president or his entourages’. In this way, through the presidential figure, the élite are able to control most of the natural resources and assets of the country and have the possibility to determine state policies.

In short, we will always be fucked. There is no hope for any country that wasn’t historically agricultural. They are too backwards.
 
Usurp Your Fathers Fellow Somalis They Have Led Y'all To The Path Jaahnam The Clans With The Most Warlords And Mooryaans Should Not Sniff Any Power In Somaliyee

:yousmart: :yousmart:
 

Hamzza

VIP
Central Asian people are nomadic like Somalis, so I wanted to see if they have clan issues in their country and of course, they do.

This is one country in Central Asia:
“Detailed data on clan identity in Tajikistan is lacking. However, Tajiks also use the term klan. The Tajik regime has publicly denounced the political influence of clans. Tajikistan was dragged into a bloody civil war over the failure of a pact between the clans. Another pact ended the conflict and, with the support of Russia, the country has been able to establish a new rule. A minority clan presently holds power but depends entirely on Russian support.”

So a langaab clan currently rules Tajikistan only due to Russian support.

Uzbekistan:
“The most powerful clan in Uzbekistan is the Samarkand clan, which has traditionally controlled the Interior Ministry; Uzbek President Islam Karimovwas a member of the Samarkand clan, which is based in Samarkand, Bukhara, Dzhizak and Navoi, and is allied with the weaker Jizak clan. The Tashkent clan, which controls the National Security Service (SNB), is allied with the Ferghana clan (sometimes considered to be the same clan), and the Khorezm clan which is based in Khorezm and southern Karakalpakistan. The Tashkent clan is based in Tashkent and in Ferghana, Andijan and Namangan through its alliance.”

So the country is divided by clans, President is one clan, and the security services are controlled by another clan.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Central Asia has been on the verge of conflict due to clan politics:

Since 1991, Central Asians themselves have repeatedly worried aloud about the corruption and destabilization sown by klannovaya politika (“clan politics”). In the weaker Central Asian states, a clan assumes ever greater political importance because the bureaucracies cannot adequately provide for the needs of the society and the formal institutions lack legitimisation. After the fall of the USSR, the informal agreements between the clans were the only means with which to stabilize the new Republics. Aside from the eventual presence of external threats that could bring the otherwise isolated groups to collaborate with each other and a certain equilibrium between the more important clans, the essential condition that would permit the creation of such informal agreements was the identification of a leader capable of mediating the interests of all of the clans. Once they enter into effect, the agreements between clans ensure the durability of the State for as long as this last protects the clan’s interests.[3]

In a situation of great economic uncertainty, the clans become strong competitors to the State and, being more efficient in providing for the needs of their members, the clans become more powerful and influential than the State institutions. In order to meet all of the requests of their affiliates, the clans must subtract an ever growing quantity of resources from the State. Acting informally, competing clans will divide the central state’s offices and resources among themselves. The upshot is a regime that might best be called a clan hegemony. While such a regime will hardly be a democracy, neither will it be a classically authoritarian political order.[4] Currently the clan-élites select the president, (the five States of Central Asia are all Presidential Republics), who must be an ombudsman for the clans’ interests. These clan-élites may be regional governors and kolkhoz (collective farm) chairmen, or simply village elders. Almost all of the powers are concentrated in the hands of the president or his entourages’. In this way, through the presidential figure, the élite are able to control most of the natural resources and assets of the country and have the possibility to determine state policies.

In short, we will always be fucked. There is no hope for any country that wasn’t historically agricultural. They are too backwards.
Weren't turks, mongols and arabs of arabia nomads? Their countries are stable.
 
Weren't turks, mongols and arabs of arabia nomads? Their countries are stable.
Ayrabs got Islam and oil, Turks of Turkey aren't all Turks, a lot are Turkified Anatolians and Mongols had Genghis Khan, one of the greatest conquerors in the world who dominated them with force

Imagine if Ahmed Guray fully conquered all of Somalia under his banner and took Ethiopia too
 

Hamzza

VIP
Somalis, tajiks and uzbeks are muslims too
we got our share of dictators and relegious leaders like sayidka and siad bare i'm not sure about imam ahmed i think he was not somali.
 
Weren't turks, mongols and arabs of arabia nomads? Their countries are stable.
Arabs have oil/gas reserves that keep everyone happy, Turks aren’t nomadic a small minority of Turkish nomads that conquered Anatolia is responsible for their language shift.
 

GemState

36/21
VIP
Central Asian people are nomadic like Somalis, so I wanted to see if they have clan issues in their country and of course, they do.

This is one country in Central Asia:
“Detailed data on clan identity in Tajikistan is lacking. However, Tajiks also use the term klan. The Tajik regime has publicly denounced the political influence of clans. Tajikistan was dragged into a bloody civil war over the failure of a pact between the clans. Another pact ended the conflict and, with the support of Russia, the country has been able to establish a new rule. A minority clan presently holds power but depends entirely on Russian support.”

So a langaab clan currently rules Tajikistan only due to Russian support.

Uzbekistan:
“The most powerful clan in Uzbekistan is the Samarkand clan, which has traditionally controlled the Interior Ministry; Uzbek President Islam Karimovwas a member of the Samarkand clan, which is based in Samarkand, Bukhara, Dzhizak and Navoi, and is allied with the weaker Jizak clan. The Tashkent clan, which controls the National Security Service (SNB), is allied with the Ferghana clan (sometimes considered to be the same clan), and the Khorezm clan which is based in Khorezm and southern Karakalpakistan. The Tashkent clan is based in Tashkent and in Ferghana, Andijan and Namangan through its alliance.”

So the country is divided by clans, President is one clan, and the security services are controlled by another clan.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Central Asia has been on the verge of conflict due to clan politics:

Since 1991, Central Asians themselves have repeatedly worried aloud about the corruption and destabilization sown by klannovaya politika (“clan politics”). In the weaker Central Asian states, a clan assumes ever greater political importance because the bureaucracies cannot adequately provide for the needs of the society and the formal institutions lack legitimisation. After the fall of the USSR, the informal agreements between the clans were the only means with which to stabilize the new Republics. Aside from the eventual presence of external threats that could bring the otherwise isolated groups to collaborate with each other and a certain equilibrium between the more important clans, the essential condition that would permit the creation of such informal agreements was the identification of a leader capable of mediating the interests of all of the clans. Once they enter into effect, the agreements between clans ensure the durability of the State for as long as this last protects the clan’s interests.[3]

In a situation of great economic uncertainty, the clans become strong competitors to the State and, being more efficient in providing for the needs of their members, the clans become more powerful and influential than the State institutions. In order to meet all of the requests of their affiliates, the clans must subtract an ever growing quantity of resources from the State. Acting informally, competing clans will divide the central state’s offices and resources among themselves. The upshot is a regime that might best be called a clan hegemony. While such a regime will hardly be a democracy, neither will it be a classically authoritarian political order.[4] Currently the clan-élites select the president, (the five States of Central Asia are all Presidential Republics), who must be an ombudsman for the clans’ interests. These clan-élites may be regional governors and kolkhoz (collective farm) chairmen, or simply village elders. Almost all of the powers are concentrated in the hands of the president or his entourages’. In this way, through the presidential figure, the élite are able to control most of the natural resources and assets of the country and have the possibility to determine state policies.

In short, we will always be fucked. There is no hope for any country that wasn’t historically agricultural. They are too backwards.
In contemporary Central Asia, tribes no longer exist. Modern Central Asian clans either operate at the family level or at the national level. The term "clan" today usually refers to patronage networks created by marriage or friendship.

It's like calling the Clintons or Kennedy a 'Clan', or Putin/Xi 's affiliates a clan, completely different to us. Average Somali doesn't even have freedom of movement within Somali territories. Different level of fucked
 
In contemporary Central Asia, tribes no longer exist. Modern Central Asian clans either operate at the family level or at the national level. The term "clan" today usually refers to patronage networks created by marriage or friendship.

It's like calling the Clintons or Kennedy a 'Clan', or Putin/Xi 's affiliates a clan, completely different to us. Average Somali doesn't even have freedom of movement within Somali territories. Different level of fucked
This is not true lol.

This is a clan map of Uzbekistan for example:
71CB1396-7ED3-484D-BE02-F0EF0D4D41B1.jpeg


In 2016, the president who ruled since before the Soviet Union collapses died and that led to instability in the country as a new leader had to be picked. The new leader had to share powers with others due to clan rivalries:


The previous president was an orphan and therefore didn’t have a clan which allowed him to rule without being seen as bias to any clan:


Islam Karimov, like the Soviets before him, kept the clans at bay by balancing their power throughout his rule. Aided by his own lack of a clan, thanks to his orphancy, Karimov was considered an outsider and as such could sit above the disputes due to his lack of regional ties.

However, Karimov was not immune to the clans’ disfavor. For example, in 1999 several car bombs were set off in Tashkent after he removed one of the Taskent clan’s leaders from the Interior Ministry. Likewise in 2004, the Interior Ministry and the National Security Council (formerly the KGB), which are linked respectively to the Samarkand and Tashkent clans, appeared to have had a land dispute with bombs exploding across Tashkent and Bukhara as a result.”


 

Grimmer

Reer guri
Your telling me there is no way we can share power and pick everyone in politics through merit? Picking someone just because it’s his clans turn over somebody who is more qualified for that position sounds so stupid.
 

GemState

36/21
VIP
This is not true lol.

This is a clan map of Uzbekistan for example:
View attachment 222095

In 2016, the president who ruled since before the Soviet Union collapses died and that led to instability in the country as a new leader had to be picked. The new leader had to share powers with others due to clan rivalries:


The previous president was an orphan and therefore didn’t have a clan which allowed him to rule without being seen as bias to any clan:


Islam Karimov, like the Soviets before him, kept the clans at bay by balancing their power throughout his rule. Aided by his own lack of a clan, thanks to his orphancy, Karimov was considered an outsider and as such could sit above the disputes due to his lack of regional ties.

However, Karimov was not immune to the clans’ disfavor. For example, in 1999 several car bombs were set off in Tashkent after he removed one of the Taskent clan’s leaders from the Interior Ministry. Likewise in 2004, the Interior Ministry and the National Security Council (formerly the KGB), which are linked respectively to the Samarkand and Tashkent clans, appeared to have had a land dispute with bombs exploding across Tashkent and Bukhara as a result.”


That's basically what I said, they operate at the national level. the Samarkand clan, traditionally controlled the Interior Ministry, The Tashkent clan, controls the National Security Service (SNB), The fact those clan borders are all regional and there's only 7 show how different their system is to us.

It's seriously not that bad.
 

Juke

Asagu/Asaga
VIP
In contemporary Central Asia, tribes no longer exist. Modern Central Asian clans either operate at the family level or at the national level. The term "clan" today usually refers to patronage networks created by marriage or friendship.

It's like calling the Clintons or Kennedy a 'Clan', or Putin/Xi 's affiliates a clan, completely different to us. Average Somali doesn't even have freedom of movement within Somali territories. Different level of fucked
In communist Mongolia (satellite of USSR) tribalism was eradicated by destroying the family trees. 60% of people didn't know their tribes. Once 70 years of communism was over most of them claimed Borjigin.

 
That's basically what I said, they operate at the national level. the Samarkand clan, traditionally controlled the Interior Ministry, The Tashkent clan, controls the National Security Service (SNB), The fact those clan borders are all regional and there's only 7 show how different their system is to us.

It's seriously not that bad.
But that’s like hawiye controls the interior ministry whilst darood controls national security service, how doesnt that mean clans doesn’t exist? We have hawiye, isaaq, darood, dir, Rahanweyn that account for 99 % of us, whilst they have 7 clans that represent them.
 

Ras

It's all so tiresome
VIP
Everyone had clans but they dropped them as soon as it's lost it's use. It was mainly agriculture that provided independence from the wider kinships group.

Nomads need their wider clans as backup when competing for land to feed their livestock.

Oromo still have clans but they're less relevant once they conquerer arable land in Ethiopia.

We don't need to farm to remove our reliance on clans... some simple rule of law would do.
 
Golden horde fell apart for qabiil reasons too, then the Russians pwned them one by one. The Same applies to Mongols where one clan Dzungars tried to unify mongol clans but the other clans ressisted and collaborated with CHina and Dzungars were wiped out by Qinch China and the rest occupied/vassalized.
There was a time horse/camel nomadic clan based nations i guess had the upper hand, but for the last 500 years they've been in freefall and victimized by sedentary/farmer based nation states. The same fate awaits Somalia.
 

Basra

LOVE is a product of Doqoniimo mixed with lust
Let Them Eat Cake
VIP
Central Asian people are nomadic like Somalis, so I wanted to see if they have clan issues in their country and of course, they do.

This is one country in Central Asia:
“Detailed data on clan identity in Tajikistan is lacking. However, Tajiks also use the term klan. The Tajik regime has publicly denounced the political influence of clans. Tajikistan was dragged into a bloody civil war over the failure of a pact between the clans. Another pact ended the conflict and, with the support of Russia, the country has been able to establish a new rule. A minority clan presently holds power but depends entirely on Russian support.”

So a langaab clan currently rules Tajikistan only due to Russian support.

Uzbekistan:
“The most powerful clan in Uzbekistan is the Samarkand clan, which has traditionally controlled the Interior Ministry; Uzbek President Islam Karimovwas a member of the Samarkand clan, which is based in Samarkand, Bukhara, Dzhizak and Navoi, and is allied with the weaker Jizak clan. The Tashkent clan, which controls the National Security Service (SNB), is allied with the Ferghana clan (sometimes considered to be the same clan), and the Khorezm clan which is based in Khorezm and southern Karakalpakistan. The Tashkent clan is based in Tashkent and in Ferghana, Andijan and Namangan through its alliance.”

So the country is divided by clans, President is one clan, and the security services are controlled by another clan.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Central Asia has been on the verge of conflict due to clan politics:

Since 1991, Central Asians themselves have repeatedly worried aloud about the corruption and destabilization sown by klannovaya politika (“clan politics”). In the weaker Central Asian states, a clan assumes ever greater political importance because the bureaucracies cannot adequately provide for the needs of the society and the formal institutions lack legitimisation. After the fall of the USSR, the informal agreements between the clans were the only means with which to stabilize the new Republics. Aside from the eventual presence of external threats that could bring the otherwise isolated groups to collaborate with each other and a certain equilibrium between the more important clans, the essential condition that would permit the creation of such informal agreements was the identification of a leader capable of mediating the interests of all of the clans. Once they enter into effect, the agreements between clans ensure the durability of the State for as long as this last protects the clan’s interests.[3]

In a situation of great economic uncertainty, the clans become strong competitors to the State and, being more efficient in providing for the needs of their members, the clans become more powerful and influential than the State institutions. In order to meet all of the requests of their affiliates, the clans must subtract an ever growing quantity of resources from the State. Acting informally, competing clans will divide the central state’s offices and resources among themselves. The upshot is a regime that might best be called a clan hegemony. While such a regime will hardly be a democracy, neither will it be a classically authoritarian political order.[4] Currently the clan-élites select the president, (the five States of Central Asia are all Presidential Republics), who must be an ombudsman for the clans’ interests. These clan-élites may be regional governors and kolkhoz (collective farm) chairmen, or simply village elders. Almost all of the powers are concentrated in the hands of the president or his entourages’. In this way, through the presidential figure, the élite are able to control most of the natural resources and assets of the country and have the possibility to determine state policies.

In short, we will always be fucked. There is no hope for any country that wasn’t historically agricultural. They are too backwards.



How can Somalia be agricultural when 80% of the land is arid desert? Its like saying Saudi Arabia deserts need to be agriculturalists. No way.
 
How can Somalia be agricultural when 80% of the land is arid desert? Its like saying Saudi Arabia deserts need to be agriculturalists. No way.
I mean the culture that comes with being agricultural. Farmers don’t have clans only their village.
 

convincation

Soomaali waa Hawiyah Iyo Hashiyah
VIP
I mean the culture that comes with being agricultural. Farmers don’t have clans only their village.
We’re a little backward in that department too. Entire subclans of major clans such as Abgaal, Xawadle, Habar awal etc have almost entirely settled down and still slaughter their fellow clansmen once in a while. Hell my own dads side have been farming for over 6 generations and they’re much more tribalist than my benadirised mums side. I think the only way to break the curse is to heavily urbanise and fill the air with propaganda
 

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