Af-Jiido: My first time hearing this Eastern Cushitic Language in Somalia with 100k Speakers.

[Shimbiris]

Arabians and North Africans are related, so how to precisely measure that stuff I don't really have a strong opinion on.

But I think the Somali type/Eastern Horn HG is much higher (8-12%) than what tests show using Mota as a reference who may not have been close to them. Just look at the stark difference between the Kenya LSA samples and Mota. HGs have much bigger genetic distances than agricultural groups do.

I hear they are going to release 18,000 year old SEA HG genomes soon, which may bolster this theory of mine.

Yemenis are easier to sus out because of their excess Iran-Chalcolithic. Just run any model with the current earliest Cushites + Yemenis (or Arabians like Saudis or BedouinB) + Mota or another East African HG and see the results for yourself. Or use Natufians and Dinkas in place of the Cushites. Somalis always show 5-10% Arabian based on the model whereas Xabashis show 20-30%.

 

[Grant]

I swear you are absolutely a shit debater.

- I have not brought up features anywhere in this entire thread. My argumentation is strictly based on genetics and linguistics.

- There is no genetic nor archaeological evidence that the ancestors of Somalis ever lived in Southern Ethiopia (excluding K5). The only genomic evidence for the Lowland East Cushitic urheimat is in the Afar or Somali territories.

Linguistics? You didn't even bother to read Lewis! Based on linguistics with much evidence both he and Ehret show the proto Somalis emerging into Somalia from the southern Ethiopian highlands. Lewis adds northern Kenya, which I think comes later. But the Dawa and Genale are clear for both of them.
Pray tell what linguistic evidence you have to negate these two professionals?

 

[Apollo]

Linguistics? You didn't even bother to read Lewis! Based on linguistics with much evidence both he and Ehret show the proto Somalis emerging into Somalia from the southern Ethiopian highlands. Lewis adds northern Kenya, which I think comes later. But the Dawa and Genale are clear for both of them.
Pray tell what linguistic evidence you have to negate these two professionals?

The first split in Lowland East Cushitic is between the Afar-Saho vs all the others. The Afar-Saho live in Central Eritrea and Northeastern Ethiopia and Djibouti. This clearly suggest the Lowland East Cushitic roughly started from this area.

The Southern Ethiopia ethnogenesis theory is deadwrong like the idea that Indo-European came out of Anatolia was wrong and was proposed by linguists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis

Those boomers came up with their erroneous ideas in the middle of last century and haven't revised their ideas with any of the latest genetic findings.

Somalis and Afars (the two most ancestrally pure Lowland East Cushites) are the least similar to Southwest Ethiopian populations out of all people in Ethiopia:

Evidence of the interplay of genetics and culture in Ethiopia - Nature Communications

Ethiopia is one of the most ethnically and culturally diverse countries. Here, the authors look at genetic and cultural variation in 1,214 Ethiopians to unravel the relationship between genetic admixture and cultural factors.

www.nature.com

 

[Grant]

The first split in Lowland East Cushitic is between the Afar-Saho vs all the others. The Afar-Saho live in Central Eritrea and Northeastern Ethiopia and Djibouti. This clearly suggest the Lowland East Cushitic roughly started from this area.

The Southern Ethiopia ethnogenesis theory is deadwrong like the idea that Indo-European came out of Anatolia was wrong and was proposed by linguists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis

Those boomers came up with their erroneous ideas in the middle of last century and haven't revised their ideas with any of the latest genetic findings.

Somalis and Afars (the two most ancestrally pure Lowland East Cushites) are the least similar to Southwest Ethiopian populations out of all people in Ethiopia:

Evidence of the interplay of genetics and culture in Ethiopia - Nature Communications

Ethiopia is one of the most ethnically and culturally diverse countries. Here, the authors look at genetic and cultural variation in 1,214 Ethiopians to unravel the relationship between genetic admixture and cultural factors.

www.nature.com

Lewis says the Afar-Saho were the first to leave
southern Ethiopia. And then the Somalis. You really should read him. His map of the Ethiopian Cushites
( minus the Agaw ) is especially interesting, all close together in the same area, near the headwaters of the Dawa and Genale. The Oromo were the last to leave, only after assimilating many of their neighbors.

 

[Apollo]

Lewis says the Afar-Saho were the first to leave
southern Ethiopia. And then the Somalis. You really should read him. His map of the Ethiopian Cushites
( minus the Agaw ) is especially interesting, all close together in the same area, near the headwaters of the Dawa and Genale. The Oromo were the last to leave, only after assimilating many of their neighbors.

They are wrong.

Saho-Afar stayed in the original territory.

Then the Oromoid group split and went into the Oromo territories, the group Somali belongs to went into Somaliweyn.

The Arbore are part of that Ethiopian genetic study. Their genomic profile can be explained by a Somali group having mixed with Southwest Ethiopians, while the Somalis from Somalia cannot be explained by any Southwest Ethiopian origins. Thus, I strongly favor the idea that Somaloid (linguistic branch of Somalis within LE-C) comes from Somaliweyn.

 

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

They are wrong.

Saho-Afar stayed in the original territory.

Then the Oromoid group split and went into the Oromo territories, the group Somali belongs to went into Somaliweyn.

The Arbore are part of that Ethiopian genetic study. Their genomic profile can be explained by a Somali group having mixed with Southwest Ethiopians, while the Somalis from Somalia cannot be explained by any Southwest Ethiopian origins. Thus, I strongly favor the idea that Somaloid (linguistic branch of Somalis within LE-C) comes from Somaliweyn.

It makes sense that we split in Eritrea, North of Bab El mandeb. A EV32 sub clade was forced to separate at both sides of Bab El mandeb, and by unknown forces. Around 5000 years ago according to genetics and languastics.

 

[Grant]

They are wrong.

Saho-Afar stayed in the original territory.

Then the Oromoid group split and went into the Oromo territories, the group Somali belongs to went into Somaliweyn.

The Arbore are part of that Ethiopian genetic study. Their genomic profile can be explained by a Somali group having mixed with Southwest Ethiopians, while the Somalis from Somalia cannot be explained by any Southwest Ethiopian origins. Thus, I strongly favor the idea that Somaloid (linguistic branch of Somalis within LE-C) comes from Somaliweyn.

Did you notice all those little pale blue Cushitic squares above the Dawa and Genale on the map in your Evidence of Interplay article? The Oromo were concentrated in west Bale and south of lake Abaya. Their expansion out of this area only begins about 1530.

 

[Apollo]

It makes sense that we split in Eritrea, North of Bab El mandeb. A EV32 sub clade was forced to separate at both sides of Bab El mandeb, and by unknown forces. Around 5000 years ago according to genetics and languastics.

Don't put too much emphasis on E-V32. It was just selected for by Somalis recently along with T1. The original Cushites had a bunch of E1b1b1 lineages. This is why Sahos have E-V22 and Afars have E-V6.

Look up founder effects and also remember that Cushitic, even Lowland East Cushitic are quite old language families almost as old as Indo-European itself.

 

[Apollo]

Did you notice all those little pale blue Cushitic squares above the Dawa and Genale on the map in your Evidence of Interplay article? The Oromo were concentrated in west Bale and south of lake Abaya. Their expansion out of this area only begins about 1530.

I have seen Garre and Degodia autosomal genomes. These are clans native to Southwest Somaliweyn and they both have different genetics from other Somalis.

The Degodia got E-M293 which is a proto-South Cushitic lineage never found in North-Central Somalis.

The Garre got E-Y161124 which is an Oromo-linked version of E-V32 never found in North-Central Somalis.

Both of them also got substantially higher Southwest Ethiopian-like affinity than other Somalis and they themselves can be explained as Somalis from Somalia who mixed with South Cushites and Oromos and they cannot be ancestral to North-Central Somalis who have a genomic profile different to them.

The only legit theory is that LE-Cushitic is from the Danakil-Hawd area and spread from there to other regions.

 

[Grant]

I have seen Garre and Degodia autosomal genomes. These are clans native to Southwest Somaliweyn and they both have different genetics from other Somalis.

The Degodia got E-M293 which is a proto-South Cushitic lineage never found in North-Central Somalis.

The Garre got E-Y161124 which is an Oromo-linked version of E-V32 never found in North-Central Somalis.

Both of them also got substantially higher Southwest Ethiopian-like affinity than other Somalis and they themselves can be explained as Somalis from Somalia who mixed with South Cushites and Oromos and they cannot be ancestral to North-Central Somalis who have a genomic profile different to them.

The only legit theory is that LE-Cushitic is from the Danakil-Hawd area and spread from there to other regions.

What happened to Eritrea and the other Ethiopian Cushites?
You really should read Ehret and Lewis as they consider the whole pie and have quite rational and supported explanations.
Maybe just to understand what the opposition has to say??

 

[Apollo]

What happened to Eritrea and the other Ethiopian Cushites?
You really should read Ehret and Lewis as they consider the whole pie and have quite rational and supported explanations.
Maybe just to understand what the opposition has to say??

Habeshas are all former Agaw speakers who switched over to South Semitic. There are small Agaw communities scattered all over Habesha territories, even in Central/Western Eritrea like the Bilen.

In the Amhara province there are the Qimant and Xamtanga.

The process of switching from Qimant (Agaw) to Amharic was documented into the modern era when it came to Ethiopian Jews.

Ethiopic South Semitic was a trade language/lingua franca similar in process/spread to Swahili, but grammatically more Semitic. pre-Islamic Yemenis started trade settlements in Eritrea selling frankincense and spices to Agaws, eventually this lead to the D'mat ደዐመተ civilization which then subsequently spread Ethiopic South Semitic even further.

In 200 years, all of Tanzania and most of Kenya will be Swahili L1 speakers replacing languages like Kikuyu, Kamba, Sukuma etc).

Maxaa Tiri Somali likely also replaced a bunch of Somali languages in Northern Somaliweyn I suspect, especially in Northwest Somaliweyn where they got this thick accent and I suspect there was a language shift from another Somali related language.

 

[The alchemist]

The linguistic migration/distribution theory is convenient and useful from a probabilistic framework with set conditions, very formulaic and rigid but requires a lot of assumptions and premises I don't know if the lack of data if revealed supports in this discussion. It cuts shorts or fails to account for unknown variables that deflate the core model is based on.

 

[The alchemist]

Ethiopic South Semitic was a trade language/lingua franca similar in process/spread to Swahili, but grammatically more Semitic. pre-Islamic Yemenis started trade settlements in Eritrea selling frankincense and spices to Agaws, eventually this lead to the D'mat ደዐመተ civilization which then subsequently spread Ethiopic South Semitic even further.

The core agricultural vocabulary of Ethio-Semitic is Agaw.

Maxaa Tiri Somali likely also replaced a bunch of Somali languages in Northern Somaliweyn I suspect, especially in Northwest Somaliweyn where they got this thick accent and I suspect there was a language shift from another Somali related language.

Don't you think urbanization will standardize and bias the spread of the growing influx of non-urban peoples' accents? I think prestige perception and hierarchal systems can diffuse accents, and possibly spread with the help of modern technology.

 

[Grant]

Habeshas are all former Agaw speakers who switched over to South Semitic. There are small Agaw communities scattered all over Habesha territories, even in Central/Western Eritrea like the Bilen.

In the Amhara province there are the Qimant and Xamtanga.

The process of switching from Qimant (Agaw) to Amharic was documented into the modern era when it came to Ethiopian Jews.

Ethiopic South Semitic was a trade language/lingua franca similar in process/spread to Swahili, but grammatically more Semitic. pre-Islamic Yemenis started trade settlements in Eritrea selling frankincense and spices to Agaws, eventually this lead to the D'mat ደዐመተ civilization which then subsequently spread Ethiopic South Semitic even further.

In 200 years, all of Tanzania and most of Kenya will be Swahili L1 speakers replacing languages like Kikuyu, Kamba, Sukuma etc).

Maxaa Tiri Somali likely also replaced a bunch of Somali languages in Northern Somaliweyn I suspect, especially in Northwest Somaliweyn where they got this thick accent and I suspect there was a language shift from another Somali related language.

Lewis and Ehret, Apollo, Lewis and Ehret.

Lewis:

 

[Apollo]

Lewis and Ehret, Apollo, Lewis and Ehret.

Lewis:

View attachment 209505

We already know this and Shimbiris posted it in chart format which is easier to read.

Still all of it can be in line with my hypothesis of Lowland East Cushitic coming from the Danakil-Hawd region.

Eastern Highland Cushites replaced South Cushitic first in Ethiopia and then in Kenya. Later on they got replaced by the Oromo group who entered the Ethiopian highlands from Somali areas.

 

[Grant]

We already know this and Shimbiris posted it in chart format which is easier to read.

Still all of it can be in line with my hypothesis of Lowland East Cushitic coming from the Danakil-Hawd region.

Eastern Highland Cushites replaced South Cushitic first in Ethiopia and then in Kenya. Later on they got replaced by the Oromo group who entered the Ethiopian highlands from Somali areas.

Barey, who is the chief source for the early Oromo, says they entered Ethiopia from the west.

 

[The alchemist]

The Cushitic side of those Iron Age Kenyan samples is identical to the Somali.

 

[Apollo]

Barey, who is the chief source for the early Oromo, says they entered Ethiopia from the west.

White people like you often have this romanticized view of Africans, especially white academics in subjects like anthropology and linguistics which has become heavily politicized and politically correct.

Reading anthropology texts from the 1800s and the early 1900s and those of today you notice a huge difference.

Present-day anthropologists do not like telling peoples from another race that they are invaders from elsewhere and therefore they often come up with bogus ideas that this or that group is native to their current region.

PC geneticists called a component that arrived to India from Iran and Central Asia as ''Ancestral North Indian'' to appease Indian nationalists even though this component did not even originate from Northern India at all.

 

[Apollo]

The Cushitic side of those Iron Age Kenyan samples is identical to the Somali.

The 2,000-1,500 year old ones from the El Molo cave doesn't cluster with Somalis. They are similar to the El Molo but less local HG, less Nilotic, and more proto-Afro-Asiatic (PAA).

2,500 year remains from the Haud region will be much more like present-day Somalis.

While anything from a similar period near Lake Rendille* won't be like Somalis.

*f*ck Turkanas, lol, it should be called Lake Rendille or Lake Gabra.

 

[The alchemist]

The 2,000-1,500 year old ones from the El Molo cave doesn't cluster with Somalis. They are similar to the El Molo but less local HG, less Nilotic, and more proto-Afro-Asiatic (PAA).

2,500 year remains from the Haud region will be much more like present-day Somalis.

While anything from a similar period near Lake Rendille* won't be like Somalis.

*f*ck Turkanas, lol, it should be called Lake Rendille or Lake Gabra.

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They don't cluster with Somali whatsoever.

As you can notice with my wording, only the non-admixed version. Maximize the Cushitic portion, and you will have something similar to extant Somalis. I bet they traveled south early and mixed with people rich in Dinka-like ancestry, and variate degrees of East African forager.