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GENETICS What makes us genetically closer to berbers than to other MENA’s?

land owner

land owner

Welcome to the yaab zone
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Apollo said:
This program called 'ADMIXTURE' has some issues. Its outputs are not always legit and stuff changes a lot depending on how many samples are included and from what regions. I have seen this Cushitic / Ethio-Somali cluster change from study to study.
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Which program do you believe is the most legit?
 
pablo

pablo

Make Dhulos Great Again
Apollo said:
E1b1b without that last 1 is called E-M215 and is super old (35,000-40,000 years). That one may have originated in the Horn. But there is no strong evidence that E1b1b1 (with that last 1) also called E-M35 (dated 24,000 YBP) originated in the Horn. There is more diversity of E-M35 in the Sahara and Southern Med region than in the Horn.

Lastly, frequency does not equal origin. To give you a few good examples:

The highest frequency of T in the world is in Djibouti, but T actually originated in Mesoptamia.
One of the highest frequencies of R1b are near Lake Chad, but R1b originated in Siberia.
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So wouldn’t that mean those people who carry T in Djibouti there ancestors migrated from Mesopotamia?
 
pablo

pablo

Make Dhulos Great Again
Apollo said:
A mix of many programs and analysis tools. Not one is perfect.



Technically yes, but due to having mixed along the way they lost a lot / most of the ancestry of that ancient group. That was my main point.
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Who did they mix with? The main group
 
Apollo

Apollo

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pablo said:
Who did they mix with? The main group
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So long ago, no modern equivalents exist.

land owner said:
@Apollo @EDsomali do any of you guys know the official autosomal breakdown of the gumuz? I heard they’re heavily omotic
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They are something intermediate between the South Sudanese and Mota (not really Omotics, but just Mota). This is the case for practically all Ethiopian Nilotes except the Anuak and Nuer who are basically the same as South Sudanse Nilotes.
 
Waaqo of Punt

Waaqo of Punt

astorecalledkmart said:
Berbers are descendants of Hamito-Cushitic populations from the Horn of Africa that diverged from us around 11-12,000 years ago. They possess some of the highest frequencies of the E1b1b Y-haplotype (i.e., genetic material inherited from father-to-son) outside of Somalis. The Bereber languages are Afro-Asiastic as Somali is, but they form their own cluster whereas Somali is a Hamitic/Cushitic language.
One of the oldest Somali cities is Berbera in Somaliland which locals say is where the Berbers derive their name from. Arabs in the pre-Islamic era referred to the Somali peninsula as Bilad al-Berber (Land of the Berbers), akin to how Ancient Egyptians referred to Punt by the name Ta netjer (Land of the Gods or by some translations, Land of Our Fathers). Combine this with older European theories on the paternal Hamitic origins of the Tutsi Kingdoms of Central Africa which are corroborated by some anecdotal stories in southern Somali regions and also now by genetic testing (Tutsi have higher frequencies of E1b1b than the ****), and you have a scenario in which several peoples originated from proto-Somali populations who then migrated out of the Somali peninsula and went on to found different civilizations.
Arabs on the other hand have virtually no significant genetic male contribution to most purely Somali populations; interestingly however, some southern Arabian populations in Yemen, Oman, and Saudi Arabia appear to have some paternal Somali influence. There is a slight signal for some maternal Arab influence in Somalis, but this occurred in the neighbourhood of 7000 years ago, if not earlier.
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Dude, just cus they have e1b1e it doesn't mean they're descendants of proto-Somalis. lmao. It's just a haplogroup. Berbers def don't come from the horn. idk why Berbera is named like that but it def doesn't have anything to do with Berbers. That's like saying Tigres got their name from the ancient Tigris river that bordered the Euphrates in Iraq. Lookign at ur post it seems u keep mistaking e1b1b = Somali...that's not the case. The e1b1b haplogroup originated in Ethiopia anyway but that can be up to debate.
 
Prince Abubu

Prince Abubu

Apollo said:
A mix of many programs and analysis tools. Not one is perfect.



Technically yes, but due to having mixed along the way they lost a lot / most of the ancestry of that ancient group. That was my main point.
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Are still a proponent of the Egypt/Red Sea migration route for T?
 
land owner

land owner

Welcome to the yaab zone
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@Apollo @EDsomali do you guys know what the dark green represents? It makes up the majority of copts and it’s dominant in bejas and ethiopian
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W

Western4Life

How come you guys never talk about your close (recent) links to the central/southern Africans? Every other Somali I find on 23andme has about 1% Congolese (and 3-4% Ethiopian/Eritrean but that's for another post). I saw one keyboard warrior on here with 10% Xabashi and he has since fled the forum before I could have used it as ammunition since he liked to talk smack.
 
Apollo

Apollo

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land owner said:
Why doesn’t qatar and Egypt have that dark green component?
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Copts are somewhat inbred as they only marry between themselves and thus are able to form a component more easily than the more cosmopolitan Muslim Egyptians. I told you above that clusters in the program ADMIXTURE (like the chart above) are not stable and change from study to study. Don't assume that they are always the same in other studies or actually reflect ancient groups.

Western4Life said:
How come you guys never talk about your close (recent) links to the central/southern Africans? Every other Somali I find on 23andme has about 1% Congolese (and 3-4% Ethiopian/Eritrean but that's for another post). I saw one keyboard warrior on here with 10% Xabashi and he has since fled the forum before I could have used it as ammunition since he liked to talk smack.
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You are correct on the Ethiopian cluster but that one along with the Sudan cluster is closely related to the Somali one.

However, many many Somalis 23andMe users have 0% or less than 0.4% (basically statistical noise level) of all the other African clusters. The ones who have more than that are often Southerners or Benadiris with recent Bantu admixture (this does not apply to all Somalis) and the ones with high Ethiopian are either Oromo admixed (Kenya or Ethiopian Somalis) or Arab admixed (23andMe has issues with Arab+Somali thinking it is Ethiopian-Eritrean).
 
W

Western4Life

Apollo said:
Copts are somewhat inbred as they only marry between themselves and thus are able to form a component more easily than the more cosmopolitan Muslim Egyptians. I told you above that clusters in the program ADMIXTURE (like the chart above) are not stable and change from study to study. Don't assume that they are always the same in other studies or actually reflect ancient groups.



You are correct on the Ethiopian cluster but that one along with the Sudan cluster is closely related to the Somali one.

However, many many Somalis 23andMe users have 0% or less than 0.4% (basically statistical noise level) of all the other African clusters. The ones who have more than that are often Southerners or Benadiris with recent Bantu admixture (this does not apply to all Somalis) and the ones with high Ethiopian are either Oromo admixed (Kenya or Ethiopian Somalis) or Arab admixed (23andMe has issues with Arab+Somali thinking it is Ethiopian-Eritrean).
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Check your list again. It's about half who are above 1%, and it's even present among Somalis furthest away from central/southern Africans like the northern Dir and Isaaq. I even saw one with 3% but about 96% Somali (he has very big lips), hardly statistical noise.

I am free of central/southern African (unfortunately) and Xabashi DNA despite being from K5. I wonder why.
 
Apollo

Apollo

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Western4Life said:
Check your list again. It's about half, and it's even high among Somalis furthest away from central/southern Africans like the northern Dir and Isaaq. I even saw one with 3% (he has very big lips), hardly statistical noise.

I am free of central/southern African (unfortunately) and Xabashi DNA despite being from K5. I wonder why.
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Maybe you are related to Bantu admixed Southerners (noticed it is common in them along with Asian Benadiri stuff). The vast majority of my relatives don't have any of the non-Horn clusters and the few who do have it at under 0.4% (can be statistical noise).

3% is impossible for a Northerner. Then they are lying about their origins. It does not exist in Northern Somalis.

As for the Ethiopian cluster, that one is just close to the Somali one and does not represent real recent admixture.

One final remark on this, many Tutsis and Kikuyus with Cushitic admixture are being used as reference samples for the Southeast Africa cluster. So occasionally it can be South Cushitic ancestry rather than genuine West African Bantu admixture that is being detected. If one is uncertain about this there are always more advanced options like the G25 tool.
 
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