What makes us genetically closer to berbers than to other MENA’s?

[land owner]

Don’t Berbers have extra iberian and anatolian ancestry? @Apollo @EDsomali

 

[Apollo]

Don’t Berbers have extra iberian and anatolian ancestry? @Apollo @EDsomali

Maghrebis also have Sub-Saharan African ancestry (both West and East) while Egyptians and Middle Easterners generally have less of this. That is the strongest explanation. Then there is also the shared NA ancestry in both groups.

The Iberian they have is not really modern-day Spanish, but Neolithic Anatolian (which to some extend overlaps with Natufian, but not a lot).

 

[astorecalledkmart]

Berbers are descendants of Hamito-Cushitic populations from the Horn of Africa that diverged from us around 11-12,000 years ago. They possess some of the highest frequencies of the E1b1b Y-haplotype (i.e., genetic material inherited from father-to-son) outside of Somalis. The Bereber languages are Afro-Asiastic as Somali is, but they form their own cluster whereas Somali is a Hamitic/Cushitic language.
One of the oldest Somali cities is Berbera in Somaliland which locals say is where the Berbers derive their name from. Arabs in the pre-Islamic era referred to the Somali peninsula as Bilad al-Berber (Land of the Berbers), akin to how Ancient Egyptians referred to Punt by the name Ta netjer (Land of the Gods or by some translations, Land of Our Fathers). Combine this with older European theories on the paternal Hamitic origins of the Tutsi Kingdoms of Central Africa which are corroborated by some anecdotal stories in southern Somali regions and also now by genetic testing (Tutsi have higher frequencies of E1b1b than the Hutu), and you have a scenario in which several peoples originated from proto-Somali populations who then migrated out of the Somali peninsula and went on to found different civilizations.
Arabs on the other hand have virtually no significant genetic male contribution to most purely Somali populations; interestingly however, some southern Arabian populations in Yemen, Oman, and Saudi Arabia appear to have some paternal Somali influence. There is a slight signal for some maternal Arab influence in Somalis, but this occurred in the neighbourhood of 7000 years ago, if not earlier.

 

[Apollo]

Berbers are descendants of Hamito-Cushitic populations from the Horn of Africa that diverged from us around 11-12,000 years ago. They possess some of the highest frequencies of the E1b1b Y-haplotype (i.e., genetic material inherited from father-to-son) outside of Somalis. The Bereber languages are Afro-Asiastic as Somali is, but they form their own cluster whereas Somali is a Hamitic/Cushitic language.
One of the oldest Somali cities is Berbera in Somaliland which locals say is where the Berbers derive their name from. Arabs in the pre-Islamic era referred to the Somali peninsula as Bilad al-Berber (Land of the Berbers), akin to how Ancient Egyptians referred to Punt by the name Ta netjer (Land of the Gods or by some translations, Land of Our Fathers). Combine this with older European theories on the paternal Hamitic origins of the Tutsi Kingdoms of Central Africa which are corroborated by some anecdotal stories in southern Somali regions and also now by genetic testing (Tutsi have higher frequencies of E1b1b than the ****), and you have a scenario in which several peoples originated from proto-Somali populations who then migrated out of the Somali peninsula and went on to found different civilizations.
Arabs on the other hand have virtually no significant genetic male contribution to most purely Somali populations; interestingly however, some southern Arabian populations in Yemen, Oman, and Saudi Arabia appear to have some paternal Somali influence. There is a slight signal for some maternal Arab influence in Somalis, but this occurred in the neighbourhood of 7000 years ago, if not earlier.

Berbers do not descend from modern Horners. Also, E1b1b1 (M35) does not equal HOA descent. That is a common mistake people make who are new to anthropology. It has been in North Africa for over 25,000 years, some even claim it originated in North Africa (E-M35) while only E-M215 (35-40,000 years old) is from the Horn.

 

[EDsomali]

Its cause they have a substantial amount of ancestry from Iberomaurasians who themselves are modelled as 55% Eurasian and 45% African. That African drift is what causes them to appear closest to us when looked at individually versus other MENA. Plus additional East and West African DNA from the slave trade.

However, Berbers aren't a good approximation for our Eurasian ancestry. When a good African source is used Yemenis are the best approximation for our Eurasian ancestry in Modern population and Natufians when used for ancient populations.

But neither group are like what our Eurasian DNA is like, we need samples from Northern Sudan/Southern Egypt to fully understand what our Eurasian Ancestry was made out of.

 

[astorecalledkmart]

Berbers do not descend from modern Horners. E1b1b1 (M35) does not equal HOA descent. That is a common mistake people make who are new to anthropology. It has been in North Africa for over 25,000 years, some even claim it originated in North Africa (E-M35) while only E-M215 (40,000 years old) is from the Horn.

I agree with you in that Berbers likely did not descend from Horn populations recently, but they certainly did come from the Horn, and it wasn't 25,000 years ago. Early estimates place Berber populations diverging from the HOA around 11-12 000 years just before the Holocene.

Jason A. Hodgson; Connie J. Mulligan; Ali Al-Meeri; Ryan L. Raaum (June 12, 2014). "Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa". PLOS Genetics is an article that breaks this down.


Further, the E1b1b almost certainly originated in the Horn of Africa. Here is a map demonstrating the distribution of the E1b1b haplotype - almost invariably, the highest incidence of a genetic marker corresponds with the geographic origin of the population. The darker the colour, the higher the frequency of the Y-DNA in the local population.

I'm always happen to learn, so please feel free to add on/correct as you see fit

 

[land owner]

Maghrebis also have Sub-Saharan African ancestry (both West and East) while Egyptians and Middle Easterners generally have less of this. That is the strongest explanation. Then there is also the shared NA ancestry in both groups.

The Iberian they have is not really modern-day Spanish, but Neolithic Anatolian (which to some extend overlaps with Natufian, but not a lot).

Ah so it’s the SSA that makes them cluster closer to us compared to other MENA’s is the east african component of theirs the hazda-like one absorbed into their iberomaurusian ancestry?

Its cause they have a substantial amount of ancestry from Iberomaurasians who themselves are modelled as 55% Eurasian and 45% African. That African drift is what causes them to appear closest to us when looked at individually versus other MENA. Plus additional East and West African DNA from the slave trade.

View attachment 81597
View attachment 81598

However, Berbers aren't a good approximation for our Eurasian ancestry. When a good African source is used Yemenis are the best approximation for our Eurasian ancestry in Modern population and Natufians when used for ancient populations.


View attachment 81599

But neither group are like what our Eurasian DNA is like, we need samples from Northern Sudan/Southern Egypt to fully understand what our Eurasian Ancestry was made out of.

Don’t most yemenis have around 15-20% SSA ancestry? Or is that mainly the southern Yemenis?

 

[Apollo]

I agree with you in that Berbers likely did not descend from Horn populations recently, but they certainly did come from the Horn, and it wasn't 25,000 years ago. Early estimates place Berber populations diverging from the HOA around 11-12 000 years just before the Holocene.

Jason A. Hodgson; Connie J. Mulligan; Ali Al-Meeri; Ryan L. Raaum (June 12, 2014). "Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa". PLOS Genetics is an article that breaks this down.


Further, the E1b1b almost certainly originated in the Horn of Africa. Here is a map demonstrating the distribution of the E1b1b haplotype - almost invariably, the highest incidence of a genetic marker corresponds with the geographic origin of the population. The darker the colour, the higher the frequency of the Y-DNA in the local population.

I'm always happen to learn, so please feel free to add on/correct as you see fit

E1b1b without that last 1 is called E-M215 and is super old (35,000-40,000 years). That one may have originated in the Horn. But there is no strong evidence that E1b1b1 (with that last 1) also called E-M35 (dated 24,000 YBP) originated in the Horn. There is more diversity of E-M35 in the Sahara and Southern Med region than in the Horn.

Lastly, frequency does not equal origin. To give you a few good examples:

The highest frequency of T in the world is in Djibouti, but T actually originated in Mesoptamia.
One of the highest frequencies of R1b are near Lake Chad, but R1b originated in Siberia.

 

[EDsomali]

Ah so it’s the SSA that makes them cluster closer to us compared to other MENA’s is the east african component of theirs the hazda-like one absorbed into their iberomaurusian ancestry?

Don’t most yemenis have around 15-20% SSA ancestry? Or is that mainly the southern Yemenis?

Even Yemeni groups that are known not to have abnormal amounts of African Ancestry like Jews and Northern Yemenis are preferred in admixture runs as a proxy for Somali Eurasian DNA, not sure why though.

More research needed.

Low African Admixted Maahrib still preferred over pure Natufian.

 

[land owner]

@Apollo @EDsomali apparently “ethiopian mursi” is a better proxy for the SSA ancestry of cushitics than dinka could it be that the SSA ancestry of cushitics absorbed some mota-like HG ancestry?
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...Horner-members&p=617238&viewfull=1#post617238

 

[Apollo]

land owner,

It's because they are less West African admixed than the South Sudanese. You gotta to take admixtures into account (same reason why SSA admixed Maghrebis are closer to HOAs than Arabians are).

 

[land owner]

It's because they are less West African admixed than the South Sudanese. You gotta to take admixtures into account (same reason why SSA admixed Maghrebis are closer to HOAs than Arabians).

Does the west african ancestry of those maghrebis make them cluster closer to us as well or do you believe it’s mainly due to the SSA of iberomaurusian?

 

[Apollo]

Does the west african ancestry of those maghrebis make them cluster closer to us as well or do you believe it’s mainly due to the SSA of iberomaurusian?

Any form of SSA, even Kalahari Khoisan, makes a person closer to Horners (to some extent). It is because Eurasians underwent a big bottleneck together when they left Africa and if you don't carry those OOA bottleneck SNPs it makes samples closer to each other.

 

[EDsomali]

It's because they are less West African admixed than the South Sudanese. You gotta to take admixtures into account (same reason why SSA admixed Maghrebis are closer to HOAs than Arabians are).

They seem to lack any sort of West African like admixture alongside Ethiopian Gumuz.

 

[EDsomali]

@Apollo @EDsomali apparently “ethiopian mursi” is a better proxy for the SSA ancestry of cushitics than dinka could it be that the SSA ancestry of cushitics absorbed some mota-like HG ancestry?
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...Horner-members&p=617238&viewfull=1#post617238

Lol.

It was actually me that made that post.

I think Muris are better fitted cause they lack the West African ancestry that Dinka has alongside that they seem to be an even mix of Mota and Proto-Nilotic like. Mota seems to be very close to Dinka as well, so those two are probably contributing factors in the better fits.

Interestingly, my fits are substantially worse than your average Somali's fit, I think I may have some divergent ancestry from somewhere.

 

[astorecalledkmart]

E1b1b without that last 1 is called E-M215 and is super old (35,000-40,000 years). That one may have originated in the Horn. But there is no strong evidence that E1b1b1 (with that last 1) also called E-M35 (dated 24,000 YBP) originated in the Horn. There is more diversity of E-M35 in the Sahara and Southern Med region than in the Horn.

Lastly, frequency does not equal origin. To give you a few good examples:

The highest frequency of T in the world is in Djibouti, but T actually originated in Mesoptamia.
One of the highest frequencies of R1b are near Lake Chad, but R1b originated in Siberia.

JazakhAllah khair that was very informative. You learn something new everyday

 

[astorecalledkmart]

MashaAllah you fellows are quite knowledgeable - do you have backgrounds in genetics?

 

[land owner]

Lol.

It was actually me that made that post.

I think Muris are better fitted cause they lack the West African ancestry that Dinka has alongside that they seem to be an even mix of Mota and Proto-Nilotic like. Mota seems to be very close to Dinka as well, so those two are probably contributing factors in the better fits.

Interestingly, my fits are substantially worse than your average Somali's fit, I think I may have some divergent ancestry from somewhere.

Damn didn’t know you were on that site lol it’s a really great place to learn more about anthropology and genomes

They seem to lack any sort of West African like admixture alongside Ethiopian Gumuz.

The yellow is early cushitic correct? What’s the genetic breakdown of cushitic at that time? If I’m not mistaken the early cushitics had more eurasian ancestry bc I’m noticing some extra SSA components for somalis that the early cushitics absorbed

 

[land owner]

MashaAllah you fellows are quite knowledgeable - do you have backgrounds in genetics?

I get most of my info from here and anthrogenica.com lol

 

[Apollo]

Damn didn’t know you were on that site lol it’s a really great place to learn more about anthropology and genomes

The yellow is early cushitic correct? What’s the genetic breakdown of cushitic at that time? If I’m not mistaken the early cushitics had more eurasian ancestry bc I’m noticing some extra SSA components for somalis that the early cushitics absorbed

This program called 'ADMIXTURE' has some issues. Its outputs are not always legit and stuff changes a lot depending on how many samples are included and from what regions. I have seen this Cushitic / Ethio-Somali cluster change from study to study.