The Somali With Saharan Haplogroup, Theory

[Reformed J]

Your theory is plausible but my theory is more reasonable. They carry different versions of E-M81 because they were brought to the Horn by different migrants from across the Mediterranean world. We have seen countless of E-M81 lineages from the same general region (Harar). If it came with the proto Cushitic tribes then surely we would have seen at least some traces of this same subclade in Sudan, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya etc

If you look carefully at the entire list you will notice geographically the Somali flag is the odd one on the list. This indicates recent arrival.

E-PF2438 YTree

www.yfull.com

They're different lineages not all that close to each other. E-M81 is a paragroup of E-L19 and only 4800 years old, nearly half the age of the 9200 year old subclade this brother is under. It would be like comparing our E-V12 to E-V13 because they're both from E-M78. As Alchemist said its more likely this brother's ancestors were western Green Sahara residents that drifted over to join our ancestors in Sudan during the Neolithic.

There's been studies in the past were Somalis and non-Somali Cushites got undifferentiated E-M35 lineages. The old diversity in all cushites hasn't been entirely lost to bottlenecks like in Somalis.

https://drum.lib.umd.edu/handle/1903/11443

Nomenclature is different now but E3b=E-M35 and E3b1=E-M78. Cataloguing changed to SNP based because more and more subclades were being discovered in between major subclades.

 

[Step a side]

They're different lineages not all that close to each other. E-M81 is a paragroup of E-L19 and only 4800 years old, nearly half the age of the 9200 year old subclade this brother is under. It would be like comparing our E-V12 to E-V13 because they're both from E-M78. As Alchemist said its more likely this brother's ancestors were western Green Sahara residents that drifted over to join our ancestors in Sudan during the Neolithic.

@The alchemist My bad, I thought he was E-M81. I still see his lineage as a recent migrant to horn rather than an ancient diffusion but this is my opinion

 

[Garaad Awal]

Could he just be a medieval descendant of a Maghreb Sheikh?

 

[The alchemist]

They're different lineages not all that close to each other. E-M81 is a paragroup of E-L19 and only 4800 years old, nearly half the age of the 9200 year old subclade this brother is under. It would be like comparing our E-V12 to E-V13 because they're both from E-M78. As Alchemist said its more likely this brother's ancestors were western Green Sahara residents that drifted over to join our ancestors in Sudan during the Neolithic.

There's been studies in the past were Somalis and non-Somali Cushites got undifferentiated E-M35 lineages. The old diversity in all cushites hasn't been entirely lost to bottlenecks like in Somalis.

https://drum.lib.umd.edu/handle/1903/11443

Nomenclature is different now but E3b=E-M35 and E3b1=E-M78. Cataloguing changed to SNP based because more and more subclades were being discovered in between major subclades.

I don't respect people who reduce the conversation to unproductive levels, better they admit they're outside their element and take a listener's position instead of engaging in a strange zero-sum game.

Besides that. This has patterns that reinforce what we know from the archeological record, showing how the Green Sahara was definitely a thing with the people having the exact migrating patterns I outlined using the interdisciplinary triangulation, lack of better words. Here is a good example of the dispersion I was talking about in mtDNA, L2a1 form:

The L2a1-a2 is basically the earliest layers of the hunter-gatherers I was referring to the Saharan-Sahel belt with the Nile Valley pottery, showing that it was not purely cultural diffusion. These were the older stages of the various related Sudanic-expanding pottery horizons/types within the Wavy Line and Dotted Wavy Line. Brazil is a West African extraction, again, showing the extent, because the pottery horizon was found in eastern Mali, underscoring consistency as the Y-DNA analysis above had a Gambian placement. These patterns are strong.

Now to go further down, there is another separate formation. Focusing on L2a1-a2a1 + (*), we see an expansion from northeast Africa showing the the Sudan and Ethiopia being the pastoralists of the Nile Valley, toward the Sahara which we see had formation at the L2a1-a2a1 TMRCA, 8500 ybp, forming the L2a1-a2a1a. That haplogroup existed in the region we talked about, so these would be the Saharan pastoralists.

This coincides with the archeology that said early Pastoralist in the Sahara expanded in 6300 BCE -- L2a1-a2a1! L2a1-a2a1* being the remnants of the Nile Valey, the point of origin for the clades in question, exemplified by Cushite descendants who were undoubtedly the first pastoralist descendants, SDN and ETH samples. This overlaps my theory thing in a precise manner.

The newest dating at Takarkori from an abstract of a study strengthens this as well. Further showing how the haplogroup mutational clock dating and the appearance of these people as measured on the physical remains coincide neatly:

As one observes the distant geographic placements of the samples under the same sub-clade that mirrors the E-Y10550 distribution between Algeria and the Horn of Africa, factoring regional habitual migrational context stemming from the desertic dynamic environment at the cusp of aridification, makes the "odd one out" argumentation shallow of relevant grounding data that follows a migrational rationale that has been established by environmental conditions and pastoralist high mobile capacity in the ancient times, as I literally stated. I mean, the notion that some females from northwest Africa came to all the Horn of African countries in the Middle Ages is not so reasonable at all.

Algeria appears in both cases since access to archeology has shown us that southwest Libya, the regional habitat and a major center for burial, and later long-term refugium, would logically be the shortest path from Algeria, as it is near the modern border. So again, we see here those Takarkori people and the related populations of the broader Acacus mountains which are near the border-line (plus there were remains on the Algerian side) migrated further west/northwest, while there was a separate dispersion wave also somewhere post 6200 BP toward the Nile Valley, having pastoralists reintroduced to a region their uni-parental ancestors expanded from.

It's very fascinating because this mtDNA sub-clade segment covers better sub-structure resolution for the migrations of the the E-Y10550 that is left at a basal position. This means in the worst-case scenario if E-Y10550 came yesterday to the Horn of Africa (which I don't believe), I would still be correct in my deeper assessment, revealed by re-affirming mitochondrial DNA deep population assessment.

Now regarding how much effect these Saharan pastoralists had on our main Cushitic base is hard to say. Could be almost non-existent. No noticeable contribution. Or, maybe somewhat noteworthy. We don't know. Having uniparentals pop up doesn't mean you even have an autosomal structural impact, leaving remnants because from what I think, those people assimilated into the Nile Valley that already had a relatively robust population growth at the time.

Listing rough similarities, the Takarkori pastoralists used to bury their dead in stone mounds, broadly similar to what you had in the Nile Valley/Eastern Sahara:

 

[saho_em84]

I don't respect people who reduce the conversation to unproductive levels, better they admit they're outside their element and take a listener's position instead of engaging in a strange zero-sum game.

Besides that. This has patterns that reinforce what we know from the archeological record, showing how the Green Sahara was definitely a thing with the people having the exact migrating patterns I outlined using the interdisciplinary triangulation, lack of better words. Here is a good example of the dispersion I was talking about in mtDNA, L2a1 form:

View attachment 310322
The L2a1-a2 is basically the earliest layers of the hunter-gatherers I was referring to the Saharan-Sahel belt with the Nile Valley pottery, showing that it was not purely cultural diffusion. These were the older stages of the various related Sudanic-expanding pottery horizons/types within the Wavy Line and Dotted Wavy Line. Brazil is a West African extraction, again, showing the extent, because the pottery horizon was found in eastern Mali, underscoring consistency as the Y-DNA analysis above had a Gambian placement. These patterns are strong.

Now to go further down, there is another separate formation. Focusing on L2a1-a2a1 + (*), we see an expansion from northeast Africa showing the the Sudan and Ethiopia being the pastoralists of the Nile Valley, toward the Sahara which we see had formation at the L2a1-a2a1 TMRCA, 8500 ybp, forming the L2a1-a2a1a. That haplogroup existed in the region we talked about, so these would be the Saharan pastoralists.

This coincides with the archeology that said early Pastoralist in the Sahara expanded in 6300 BCE -- L2a1-a2a1! L2a1-a2a1* being the remnants of the Nile Valey, the point of origin for the clades in question, exemplified by Cushite descendants who were undoubtedly the first pastoralist descendants, SDN and ETH samples. This overlaps my theory thing in a precise manner.

The newest dating at Takarkori from an abstract of a study strengthens this as well. Further showing how the haplogroup mutational clock dating and the appearance of these people as measured on the physical remains coincide neatly:

As one observes the distant geographic placements of the samples under the same sub-clade that mirrors the E-Y10550 distribution between Algeria and the Horn of Africa, factoring regional habitual migrational context stemming from the desertic dynamic environment at the cusp of aridification, makes the "odd one out" argumentation shallow of relevant grounding data that follows a migrational rationale that has been established by environmental conditions and pastoralist high mobile capacity in the ancient times, as I literally stated. I mean, the notion that some females from northwest Africa came to all the Horn of African countries in the Middle Ages is not so reasonable at all.

Algeria appears in both cases since access to archeology has shown us that southwest Libya, the regional habitat and a major center for burial, and later long-term refugium, would logically be the shortest path from Algeria, as it is near the modern border. So again, we see here those Takarkori people and the related populations of the broader Acacus mountains which are near the border-line (plus there were remains on the Algerian side) migrated further west/northwest, while there was a separate dispersion wave also somewhere post 6200 BP toward the Nile Valley, having pastoralists reintroduced to a region their uni-parental ancestors expanded from.

It's very fascinating because this mtDNA sub-clade segment covers better sub-structure resolution for the migrations of the the E-Y10550 that is left at a basal position. This means in the worst-case scenario if E-Y10550 came yesterday to the Horn of Africa (which I don't believe), I would still be correct in my deeper assessment, revealed by re-affirming mitochondrial DNA deep population assessment.

Now regarding how much effect these Saharan pastoralists had on our main Cushitic base is hard to say. Could be almost non-existent. No noticeable contribution. Or, maybe somewhat noteworthy. We don't know. Having uniparentals pop up doesn't mean you even have an autosomal structural impact, leaving remnants because from what I think, those people assimilated into the Nile Valley that already had a relatively robust population growth at the time.

Listing rough similarities, the Takarkori pastoralists used to bury their dead in stone mounds, broadly similar to what you had in the Nile Valley/Eastern Sahara:

I uploaded this L2a1c mtdna for cushitic speaking eritrean friend and now the sample shares sub clade with a scientific sample from egypt the tmrca is 2700 ybp

L2a1c16 MTree

www.yfull.com

Whole genome sequencing and bioinformatics analysis of two Egyptian genomes - PubMed

We report two Egyptian male genomes (EGP1 and EGP2) sequenced at ~ 30× sequencing depths. EGP1 had 4.7 million variants, where 198,877 were novel variants while EGP2 had 209,109 novel variants out of 4.8 million variants. The mitochondrial haplogroup of the two individuals were identified to be...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Cognitive]

For some obscure reason I missed this thread. Interesting results and once again you delivered an in-depth and reasonable explanation.
How about the V32 Chadic people? Are they the vestiges of a Cushitic speaking population who diffused to central Africa through the Yellow Nile?

 

[The alchemist]

For some obscure reason I missed this thread. Interesting results and once again you delivered an in-depth and reasonable explanation.
How about the V32 Chadic people? Are they the vestiges of a Cushitic speaking population who diffused to central Africa through the Yellow Nile?

Well, I can give you a possible direct example:

I was reading a list of Cushitic names from the ancient Eastern Desert obtained from ostraka documented here: https://homepage.univie.ac.at/helmut.satzinger/Texte/Barbarian_Names.pdf

One of the names mentioned was "Masalit" - a name of a Nilo-Saharan group that, according to Hassan et al. 2008 sampled set, has 55% of its population under E-V32.

It seems they had a Cushitic progenitor and later went through a considerable change over a long time.