The Argument from Free Will

[The_Cosmos]

In order to have free will, you must have more than one option, each of which is avoidable. This means that before you make a choice, there must be a state of uncertainty during a period of potential: you cannot know the future. Even if you think you can predict your decision, if you claim to have free will, you must admit the potential (if not the desire) to change your mind before the decision is final.

A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty." It knows its choices in advance. This means that it has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore lacks free will. Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.

I would like this to be an ordered debate. Bring something to the table.

 

[BebsiBolice]

Free will exists even in the realm of religion. Most religious scripts, especially the Quran point out you have a free will and that you and only you create your own path. But what will happen, based on your choices in life, has already been written.

As a person with doubts I find that the free will argument Islam presents to be the only logical one. It makes sense to me. God is all knowing and should therefor naturally know what choices you will make and he doesn't intervene.

 

[MrProfessor]

[QUOTE=" This means that it has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore lacks free will. Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.
[/QUOTE]

Your didn't make a point or should I say argue for that last statement.
Who said "a being that lacks free will is not a being"

 

[The_Cosmos]

Free will exists even in the realm of religion. Most religious scripts, especially the Quran point out you have a free will and that you and only you create your own path. But what will happen, based on your choices in life, has already been written.

As a person with doubts I find that the free will argument Islam presents to be the only logical one. It makes sense to me. God is all knowing and should therefor naturally know what choices you will make and he doesn't intervene.

Like I stated previously, in order to have free will there must be more than one option and they must be avoidable. If I walk into a store and attempt to choose which drink I wish to have, I don't have free will because Allah already knows the option I'm going to make meaning that it rendered all the other options null and means that the drink he has written for me will be the one I'll pick. It's unavoidable. You can use the same logic for heaven/hell.

 

[The_Cosmos]

[QUOTE=" This means that it has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore lacks free will. Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.

Your didn't make a point or should I say argue for that last statement.
Who said "a being that lacks free will is not a being"[/QUOTE]

The point is Allah has no free will because he cannot avoid the choices that he will make. He cannot change his future rendering him void of free will.

 

[BebsiBolice]

Like I stated previously, in order to have free will there must be more than one option and they must be avoidable. If I walk into a store and attempt to choose which drink I wish to have, I don't have free will because Allah already knows the option I'm going to make meaning that it rendered all the other options null and means that the drink he has written for me will be the one I'll pick. It's unavoidable. You can use the same logic for heaven/hell.

Allah knowing what drink you will choose does not me you don't have free will.

God knows everything, past, present and future. God knows what choices you will make. He doesn't intervene in your choices and he does not lead you to your choices.

You make them.

I genuinely find this explanation to be very simple.

 

[MrProfessor]

Like I stated previously, in order to have free will there must be more than one option and they must be avoidable. If I walk into a store and attempt to choose which drink I wish to have, I don't have free will because Allah already knows the option I'm going to make meaning that it rendered all the other options null and means that the drink he has written for me will be the one I'll pick. It's unavoidable. You can use the same logic for heaven/hell.

Well that's the beauty and intricacy of religion
It's not that God already chose for you what you were going to choose, but its that God already knows what your going to choose.
Although hard to understand, there is a difference between the 2

 

[The_Cosmos]

Allah knowing what drink you will choose does not me you don't have free will.

God knows everything, past, present and future. God knows what choices you will make. He doesn't intervene in your choices and he does not lead you to your choices.

You make them.

I genuinely find this explanation to be very simple.

I think you misunderstand what a choice is. In order to have a choice there must be another choice that you can make, if there is only one then the choice is no choice at all. If I'm going to hell, there is nothing I can do to stop that from happening because Allah has already seen.

 

[BebsiBolice]

I think you misunderstand what a choice is. In order to have a choice there must be another choice that you can make, if there is only one then the choice is no choice at all. If I'm going to hell, there is nothing I can do to stop that from happening because Allah has already seen.

You can change your future. Go do wudu. I personally am not gonna do wudu. I'm planning on getting a permanent tan with my best friends.

 

[The_Cosmos]

Well that's the beauty and intricacy of religion
It's not that God already chose for you what you were going to choose, but its that God already knows what your going to choose.
Although hard to understand, there is a difference between the 2

You didn't answer the point. Allah himself has no Free will. A free agent can change "his mind" but Allah cannot because it would create a paradox in that it conflicts with his omni powers.

 

[The_Cosmos]

You can change your future. Go do wudu. I personally am not gonna do wudu. I'm planning on getting a permanent tan with my best friends.

How could I change my future if Allah already knows it? You're completely forgetting the important matter of qadr which means fate. You must believe in fate to be a Muslim in Islam and fate conflicts with free will.

 

[MrProfessor]

You didn't answer the point. Allah himself has no Free will. A free agent can change "his mind" but Allah cannot because it would create a paradox in that it conflicts with his omni powers.

You can't get into the realm of Allah, the creator of the universe. You are putting the laws he has created upon him. What was the rules of free will before the universe existed?

 

[The_Cosmos]

You can't get into the realm of Allah, the creator of the universe. You are putting the laws he has created upon him. What was the rules of free will before the universe existed?

Now you're stepping into the realm of special pleading. Islam gives you the option (it's no option really) of believing it or going to hell but how can we do that if he himself doesn't make any logical sense?

 

[MrProfessor]

Philosophy is not a good argument against religio

Now you're stepping into the realm of special pleading. Islam gives you the option (it's no option really) of believing it or going to hell but how can we do that if he himself doesn't make any logical sense?

He does make logical sense, but you are putting your limits and the limits only affected by you to God.
Forget about God, there can be another planet were the life on that planet has entirely different rules of what free will and philosophical existence is, let alone the one who has created all of it

 

[The_Cosmos]

Philosophy is not a good argument against religio


He does make logical sense, but you are putting your limits and the limits only affected by you to God.
Forget about God, there can be another planet were the life on that planet has entirely different rules of what free will and philosophical existence is, let alone the one who has created all of it

Philosophy is a great tool against religion in that exposes the clear logical holes in religion. You've just made one.

Why would Allah create the human mind so fragile that it cannot understand him the only way it can understand anything? Deductive reasoning.

You claim Allah makes perfect logical sense but it's my fault that he simply doesn't make logical sense?

Ok, if Allah can do anything, can he create a rock so heavy even he cannot pick up. That philosophical question came from Avveroes who was a Muslim.

 

[MrProfessor]

Philosophy is a great tool against religion in that exposes the clear logical holes in religion. You've just made one.

Why would Allah create the human mind so fragile that it cannot understand him the only way it can understand anything? Deductive reasoning.

You claim Allah makes perfect logical sense but it's my fault that he simply doesn't make logical sense?

Ok, if Allah can do anything, can he create a rock so heavy even he cannot pick up. That philosophical question came from Avveroes who was a Muslim.

LOOOL, I was waiting for when you were going to say that. BC I personally hate paradoxes in general, the "Omnipotence Paradox" to me is just like the "unstoppable force paradox" but just brought into religion. The answer for that paradox is, well it just a paradox and we as human being can't rap our heads around it.

There are many more paradoxes that we don't have an answer for, and simply can't understand, and will probably never understand. But we also don't disbelieve in physics or the Morality, or even basic logic because of a paradox.

That's why I say philosophy doesn't work well with God, because you will hit a paradox, almost every time. and the nature of a paradox is, it's unanswerable.

 

[The_Cosmos]

LOOOL, I was waiting for when you were going to say that. BC I personally hate paradoxes in general, the "Omnipotence Paradox" to me is just like the "unstoppable force paradox" but just brought into religion. The answer for that paradox is, well it just a paradox and we as human being can't rap our heads around it.

There are many more paradoxes that we don't have an answer for, and simply can't understand, and will probably never understand. But we also don't disbelieve in physics or the Morality, or even basic logic because of a paradox.

That's why I say philosophy doesn't work well with God, because you will hit a paradox, almost every time. and the nature of a paradox is, it's unanswerable.

The paradoxes in physics like the time travel paradox, are simply hypothetical and are not concrete scientific facts. Also, it's false equivalence to compare science and religion when they completely contradict each other.

You're simply conceding that you don't have an answer which for me sums up religion pretty well. If Allah's powers don't make any logical sense but you still think you should believe in them anyways, you're practically asserting blind belief.

You have presented nothing more than special pleading arguments implying that god must be exempt from logical arguments because he is...God.

 

[Layth]

Free will exists even in the realm of religion. Most religious scripts, especially the Quran point out you have a free will and that you and only you create your own path. But what will happen, based on your choices in life, has already been written.

As a person with doubts I find that the free will argument Islam presents to be the only logical one. It makes sense to me. God is all knowing and should therefor naturally know what choices you will make and he doesn't intervene.

Allah knowing what drink you will choose does not me you don't have free will.

God knows everything, past, present and future. God knows what choices you will make. He doesn't intervene in your choices and he does not lead you to your choices.

You make them.

I genuinely find this explanation to be very simple.

 

[The_Cosmos]

@BebsiBolice How come you haven't answered my latest point to you?

 

[Layth]

It’s as simple as this: you’re free to make a choice, God just knows what that choice is going to be. There’s no intervention like @BebsiBolice mentioned.

You didn't answer the point. Allah himself has no Free will. A free agent can change "his mind" but Allah cannot because it would create a paradox in that it conflicts with his omni powers.

You’re contradicting yourself when you say “God has no freewill because he can’t change his mind since that would create a paradox in that it conflicts with his Omni powers”. If God does have Omni powers (i.e. he has absolute knowledge of everything, past & present), why would he need to change his mind? Surely he’ll always, without fail, make the choices that are the wisest and most befitting for the Lord of the world.

How could I change my future if Allah already knows it? You're completely forgetting the important matter of qadr which means fate. You must believe in fate to be a Muslim in Islam and fate conflicts with free will.

You have very little understanding of Qadr. I’m not going to go in depth with you in this subject, I’ll keep it concise. You cannot base your decisions on “what is written for you” since you have no knowledge of that, your duty is to strive to do good works. Allah has foreknowledge of the decisions that you’re going to make but the choice is yours. If I slap myself this second, sure it was written for me, but it was also my own doing. Qadr is basically you making decisions by the permission of Allah (whilst he already has knowledge of the actions that you’re going to make in advance), hence it was written for you.

Ok, if Allah can do anything, can he create a rock so heavy even he cannot pick up. That philosophical question came from Avveroes who was a Muslim.

That’s honestly a very stupid question. The fact that it's impossible for Allah to be incompetent is actually indicative of absolute power rather than the contrary. If we say it’s impossible for Allah to forget something, is this a weakness or a mark of omnipotence? Allah cannot forget anything, thus he’s the all-knowing and all-aware, capiche?