Temporal closure to a Nubian genetic study.

[Cognitive]

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/153487/abstein_1.pdf?sequence=1

To sum it up: their mitogenomes align pretty well with what one would expect for a Cushitic-like population with mild exposure to contemporary Egyptians.
The same file also speaks for a DEVIATION of modern Sudanese peoples. This could likely be an introgression of both external and "southern" materials during the Medieval period and beyond. However, I'd wager their "Eurasian" vs "SSA" portions do not differ much. Obviously, this isn't the case for all modern Sudanese groups. Like many populations of modern North and Northeast Africa, their ancestries associated with external influence depend on tribal, religious, or even linguistic factors.

BEAR IN MIND THIS IS NOT WIDE-GENOME AUTOSOMAL​

Although, from the (relatively) recent low-quality genome of the Kerma period (on top of an ABUNDANCE of cranial & dental metric & non-metric data), one could conclude that major players of Nubia =a Cushitic-like RACE. Not that you guys didn't subscribe to that idea.


Finally, this is most plausibly not the final form of Abagail Breidenstein (her IG)'s Nubian study. It was brought up again in ISBA9 too, as indicated by this thread.

 

[Cartan Boos]

So ancient kerma and kushite were Cushitic

 

[Cognitive]

The Kerman burials show a population with Horner-like cranial pattern. They should reside on the Northeast African cline, yes.

Their linguistic affinity is still a hotly debated issue.

 

[Cognitive]

Tigre=Tigreay people. Look how Nubians cluster with it.

Again, Nubians are cranially Cushitic-like.

Nubians cluster with each other and AEs in dental non-metric results. The "saf" and "jsa" were SSA specimens distant to both.

 

[Kisra]

@Nilotic

Thoughts?

 

[Nilotic]

@Nilotic

Thoughts?

I really do have to submit myself to extensive research before I can confidently push for positions on these matters...

..With that being said, it seems pretty clear that the Kermans, Kushites and the Nubians belong belong firmly in the "Cushitic" category; I still don't believe that the Kushites and Nubians were language shifted at any point...

..I think they just experienced the same admixture event as Cushites, however, they retained their original Nilo-Saharan languages; I don't know of any nomadic Nilo-Saharan populace that was so powerful that they somehow managed to language shift the Kushites, Nubians and the Nara.

 

[Kisra]

..I think they just experienced the same admixture event as Cushites, however, they retained their original Nilo-Saharan languages; I don't know of any nomadic Nilo-Saharan populace that was so powerful that they somehow managed to language shift the Kushites, Nubians and the Nara.

That does seem plausible. This entire topic is extremely interesting.

There are some caveats to that theory though. For example - we know that the proto-cushite population that the all Cushitic groups including Nubians derive from trace their DNA from Natufian males and Nilotic females. Would that not inevitably form a patriarchal society? So wouldn't that mean there would be a higher chance of taking on the Father's language rather than the mother's.

The Kushites were matrilineal though so idk.

Also another point. We'rent the proto kushites all one population at one point in the boundery between Northern Sudan and southern Egypt? So if the Nubians language shifted then why didnt their fellow cushite do so as well?

 

[Nilotic]

That does seem plausible. This entire topic is extremely interesting.

There are some caveats to that theory though. For example - we know that the proto-cushite population that the all Cushitic groups including Nubians derive from trace their DNA from Natufian males and Nilotic females. Would that not inevitably form a patriarchal society? So wouldn't that mean there would be a higher chance of taking on the Father's language rather than the mother's.

The Kushites were matrilineal though so idk.

Also another point. We'rent the proto kushites all one population at one point in the boundery between Northern Sudan and southern Egypt? So if the Nubians language shifted then why didnt their fellow cushite do so as well?

This is really intriguing; I did come across data showing the high frequency of A-M13 in Neolithic samples, so perhaps the Kushites, Nara and Nubians did start out with a significantly more Nilotic paternal profile than other "Cushites".

Haplogroups A-M13 was found at high frequencies among Neolithic samples. Haplogroup F-M89 and YAP appeared to be more frequent among Meroitic, Post-Meroitic and Christian periods. Haplogroup B-M60 was not observed in the sample analyzed. (Genetic Patterns of Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Variation, Hisham Yousif Hassan Mohamed 2009)

I don't have any concrete evidence, but I maintain that the Nubians have always spoken a Northern Eastern Sudanic language, but were subject to the same admixture event that resulted in the birth of the Cushites; perhaps there was a gradual displacement of Nilotic Y-DNA -- explaining why they ultimately retained their Nilo-Saharan languages.

 

[Cognitive]

This is really intriguing; I did come across data showing the high frequency of A-M13 in Neolithic samples, so perhaps the Kushites, Nara and Nubians did start out with a significantly more Nilotic paternal profile than other "Cushites".

I thought the samples were derived from Neolithic Kadruka? Later groups were E-dominated. I’ll have to check Joel Irish’s dental data on R12 cemetery to see if there was potential discontinuity or something along the like. My stance is that there were potentially many different groups IN early Lower Nubia & further south as shown by their dental non/metric clustering (higher internal diversity compared to EGs), and a “regular” Cushitic group could also be present hence not necessarily a “displacement of Nilotic paternal profiles” but rather movement of peoples.
As I understand it, Nubians started near Qustul (A-Group). Or do you think A-Group was just a northern Neolithic group influenced more by contemporary Egyptians?
Of course, I know that Khartoum Mesolithic culture was always a kernel to their society, and that its pottery-types heavily influenced early NE Africa.

 

[Aurelian]

Some Egyptians are calling them mulatto ancient Egyptians, emphasizing on the idea that they were more ancient Egyptian than SSA

 

[The alchemist]

Some Egyptians are calling them mulatto ancient Egyptians, emphasizing on the idea that they were more ancient Egyptian than SSA

This is retarded. It's not even a worthy point to address.

 

[Kisra]

Some Egyptians are calling them mulatto ancient Egyptians, emphasizing on the idea that they were more ancient Egyptian than SSA

Sisi needs to improve the Egyptian education system fr.
Can't say I'm surprised.

 

[Aurelian]

This is retarded. It's not even a worthy point to address.

Sisi needs to improve the Egyptian education system fr.
Can't say I'm surprised.

I myself who is not into this genome thing can tell he was bias

 

[Cognitive]

Honestly I’m not very surprised. I know the two groups have hated each other since at least the Middle Kingdom.
That being said, this is hyper retarded. It’s like calling you guys Arabian Nilotes due to Natufian-like and proto-Nilotic ancestries.

 

[Cognitive]

https://www.docdroid.net/file/download/8GAIp0X/genetic-patterns-of-y-chromosome-and-mitochondrial-hassan-2009-pdf.pdf

@Nilotic I believe this is the study you referenced?

 

[Step a side]

That does seem plausible. This entire topic is extremely interesting.

There are some caveats to that theory though. For example - we know that the proto-cushite population that the all Cushitic groups including Nubians derive from trace their DNA from Natufian males and Nilotic females. Would that not inevitably form a patriarchal society? So wouldn't that mean there would be a higher chance of taking on the Father's language rather than the mother's.

The Kushites were matrilineal though so idk.

Also another point. We'rent the proto kushites all one population at one point in the boundery between Northern Sudan and southern Egypt? So if the Nubians language shifted then why didnt their fellow cushite do so as well?

This is what always baffled me. Both the Cushitic speaking Beja and the Nubians are genetically similar having male lineages from North Africa and females from proto Nilotic groups. The only reason this could be is that Nubians are a product of rape or they just language shifted during the middle Kingdom. This shift of language concurred roughly around the time that many of todays horners started their migration towards the horn leaving a power vacuuum for east Sudanic settlers from the west and south to slowly push northwards and influence the Cushitic speaking people of the region. This my hypothesis. We need samples from the Botana, Gash, A- Group, C-group, and much more

Someone made this map long ago. It’s the supposed migration path our Cushitic speaking ancestors took. If my geography serves me right, the locations of kadruka and the medieval Nubian samples fall on the Cushitic side while the Napata and Meroe are on the other side.

 

[The alchemist]

There was an AE-Hyksos paper coming up. I hope the article comes around quickly, unlike the Roman one with the Nubian sample, which had a pre-print released two years ago.

I'm excited about the Ancient Arabian samples studied from KSA and South Arabia. The AE one will confirm what we always knew, but maybe it gives us a better geneflow arrangement for sampling purposes.

The conflict messed up the promising momentum of studies on Sudan. Hopefully, the Polish team, and others, that spent time there can muster enough observatory raw data work by documentation enough to disseminate focused, meaningful research publications about what they found.

I think the way the researchers structure their fieldwork and writing papers might need some better planning. The funding platforms also need an incentive skew that encourages focus on Africa. The inequality of continental research is too massive. The Asian side is improving.

 

[Som]

Some Egyptians are calling them mulatto ancient Egyptians, emphasizing on the idea that they were more ancient Egyptian than SSA

LoL they are reaching and they do it to claim their civilization

 

[Som]

I myself who is not into this genome thing can tell he was bias

Egypt is currently engaging in a cultural crusade against black people so not surprising. Apparently many of them are accusing black people of being all afrocentric even people who never had anything to do with this ideology.

 

[The alchemist]

Egypt is currently engaging in a cultural crusade against black people so not surprising. Apparently many of them are accusing black people of being all afrocentric even people who never had anything to do with this ideology.

Egyptians' outcry at the Black portrayal of their history is funny. Where was the outrage when White people made movies and appropriated and controlled their narrative since the 1900s and before? I remember Zahi Hawass bragging and reminiscing about meeting some White old Hollywood actress that filmed a movie about Egypt very long ago, with her being one of the females Nefertiti, Cleopatra, or whatever have you. The guy looked so happy and as if his life was complete. But let's see how happy he will be if he meets a Black actress portraying whatever woman in Ancient Egyptian history. Colorism is a big factor in this, irrespective of how those Hollywood people put a mixed Black woman, depicting the least Egyptian queen (Macedonian with Iranian ancestry). It seems they wanted to bank on the controversy. They could have taken a Greek/Cypriot/Turkish-looking woman for that role. That would be in the ballpark for the phenotype.