Old ruins on Bajuni Islands

[Banadiri Warrior]

The cadow researchers of-course like clockwork attributed these ruins to a lost white race or the next best cope; they wuzz Arabs;

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Local residents of the Bajuni Islands;

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Girl with a face-mask;

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Grandpas playing the ancient game of Mancala;

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Which islands are the ruins from? Because there's islands that Bajuni Arab and Persian tribes like Al Nowfali, Al Khazraji , Banu Stambuli , Al Nadhiiri and Al Kindi inhabited.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

Wow those look really well built. wonder how many ruins like this there are throughout somalia. Either unknown by non locals or buried underground. Makes the chinese chronicle that says hamar had multiple story buildings sound a lot more believable.

Xamar having multi storey buildings isn't some folklore, it's always been like that , usually it would be 2-3 stories , likewise other banadiri settlements.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

That’s correct. There were somalic peoples who are now extinct like Madinle,Mahaaw etc.

Somalis proper don’t enter the south until 1400’s.

Who are mahaaw? I've only heard of Maadanle, Maatire, Matiiti ,Qolomata , Maashame, Loo Madow, Harta Diinle , Angali, Abuur, Harta Diinle and there's many more that are still remembered in south

 

[Cartan Boos]

aren't these people misex with persian but again i heard bajuni have garre origin, this looks similar to the azaania ruins, could be south cushitic thing

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

aren't these people misex with persian but again i heard bajuni have garre origin, this looks similar to the azaania ruins, could be south cushitic thing

Depends on tribe, bajuni coast and archipelago is very diverse there's over 20 tribes, one of them called garre, there's also firado that are from garre aswell, Persian bajunis would be like Shirazi tribe, No evidence of it being a south cushitic thing

 

[Three Moons]

The ruins are located on Koyama Island. Its interesting that Kibajuni speakers historically referred to Somalic groups as ‘Katwa’. I wish Somalia was in a better position to push that language as the dominant variant of Swahili in East Africa, alongside the Somali language through soft-power.

 

[Riftvalley]

That’s correct. There were somalic peoples who are now extinct like Madinle,Mahaaw etc.

Somalis proper don’t enter the south until 1400’s.

Not true. Tunnis were present around the Lamu and Kismaayo area around a 1000 years ago.

And Madanle was the Harla of South Somalia/Northern Kenya, a rich and powerful agro pastoral Somali tribe. A thousand years ago Rendilles would have been considered Somalis. I don’t see a problem with calling Madanle and other lost tribes Somali.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

The ruins are located on Koyama Island. Its interesting that Kibajuni speakers historically referred to Somalic groups as ‘Katwa’. I wish Somalia was in a better position to push that language as the dominant variant of Swahili in East Africa, alongside the Somali language through soft-power.

Koyama is Majority Nowfali other clans there are Garre, Kismayu ,Ngumi and Kachwa. Katwa doesn't mean Samaale clans, because There's Garre and Firado that are known by those names and not Katwa, there's Also Kilio that are from Aweer that are known as Katwa, so Katwa ≠ Reer Samaale

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

Not true. Tunnis were present around the Lamu and Kismaayo area around a 1000 years ago.

And Madanle was the Harla of South Somalia/Northern Kenya, a rich and powerful agro pastoral Somali tribe. A thousand years ago Rendilles would have been considered Somalis. I don’t see a problem with calling Madanle and other lost tribes Somali.

Nah 1000 years ago is too early, they were agro pastoralists that migrated from where digil clans lived in modern day eastern Ethiopia to south following wabi ganaale. Maadanle is just one out of the dozen or more Gaala Madow tribes. They're not from Samaale nor were they from the same tribe as him, makes no sense to call them somali out of all the ancient inhabitants of south. Just call them Maadanle that's sufficient.

 

[Three Moons]

Koyama is Majority Nowfali other clans there are Garre, Kismayu ,Ngumi and Kachwa. Katwa doesn't mean Samaale clans, because There's Garre and Firado that are known by those names and not Katwa, there's Also Kilio that are from Aweer that are known as Katwa, so Katwa ≠ Reer Samaale

You list Garre, then say Katwa has nothing to do with Samaale. Is it the fasting?

In any case I never said ‘Samaale’, but ‘Somalic’ which is my personal substitute for the ‘Somaloid’ language family.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

You list Garre, then say Katwa has nothing to do with Samaale. Is it the fasting?

Yes because Garre of Bajuni are just known as Garre and not Katwa, I didn't say Katwa has nothing to do with Reer Samaale, rather Katwa ≠ Samaale clans

In any case I never said ‘Samaale’, but ‘Somalic’ which is my personal substitute for the ‘Somaloid’ language family.

Just stick to Samaale no need for all these obscure titles.

 

[Three Moons]

Yes because Garre of Bajuni are just known as Garre and not Katwa, I didn't say Katwa has nothing to do with Reer Samaale, rather Katwa ≠ Samaale clans

Kibajuni speakers stretch beyond the Bajuni Islands, you can’t pigeonhole their historic usage of certain sobriquets for other peoples to one specific locale.

Just stick to Samaale no need for all these obscure titles.

Which is ironic because your version of ‘Samaale’ is a very narrow one that is contradicted by genetics, linguistics and archaeology and leaves out a dozen extinct and existing groups that were and are part of the greater Somaloid family.

‘Somalic’ is just my substitute, but the logic remains the same.

 

[Riftvalley]

Nah 1000 years ago is too early, they were agro pastoralists that migrated from where digil clans lived in modern day eastern Ethiopia to south following wabi ganaale. Maadanle is just one out of the dozen or more Gaala Madow tribes. They're not from Samaale nor were they from the same tribe as him, makes no sense to call them somali out of all the ancient inhabitants of south. Just call them Maadanle that's sufficient.

At least 900 years, that’s according to the linguistic paper when Northern Swahili met Somali. If it wasn’t them, NS has been in direct contact with Somali speakers of the “maay” type for at least a 1000 years ago. IM Lewis collected a similar oral history in the region. When Somalis move, it doesn’t always have be the entire clan- it could have been one section of Tunni or a related group who lived there.

As for Madanle, they were likely a Somali Agro pastoral group who once dominated in Northern Kenya region. Their history is not so ancient, as their decline due to environmental issues and their military defeat by a coalition of other tribes is still remembered. This probably occurred in the Middle Ages. They are at times associated with the Ajuuraan, and they do even appear in their lineages

As for them not being Somali, the region of around Northern Kenya/Southern Somalia was dominated by people similar to Rendilles and other Somalis who adhered to the proto-Somali camel herding culture. The Madanle would have most likely been closely related to these people and interacted with them, hence why Somalis remember them with so much detail and they are the only group who have Madanle in their lineages. Their burial sites are said to be similar to Somalis. Thus, I refer to them as Somali from a genetic, cultural and linguistic perspective.

For the Gaalo madow thing, I believe you are referring to Madanle who were reported to be Gaal Madows around the Badioa area. This could have been the same group or an allied group, we know Agro pastoral groups stretch deep and Develop local alliances. It doesn’t have to mean the ones in Badaio and the ones around Northern Kenya were the same group. Even if we assume they were the same group, the Rendilles are a good example to show Somalis have vastly exaggerated the Gaalo Madow purges reported in their history. Rendilles have many tenants similar to Islam in their culture (praying five times a day etc) which means many of their tribes were formerly Muslim. The Somali peninsula once had folks who were entirely Muslim, some who synchronised Islam With ancient beliefs and those still followed Waaq. The fact that Rendilles till this day have a superstition about killing Somalis as they are “brothers” is an indicator the early Somali Muslim interaction with Somali/east Cushitic non believers was not always one of chasing away the “Gaal Madows”. We have sites bones of pigs alongside Muslim settlements on the Harla sites.

Therefore, the Madanles were very likely a development of the proto Somali- early Somali camel herding and Agro pastoral culture in the region. Separating them form Somalis due to them not having a “Samale lineage” is like saying Boranas and Barentus don’t come form
The same cultural stock (Oromo). Lineages and oral history are just one of facet of understanding and labelling history. It is not the be and end of all of how we understand things. I have no doubt genetic testing will show that Madanle were indistinguishable from “Samales”.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

Kibajuni speakers stretch beyond the Bajuni Islands, you can’t pigeonhole their historic usage of certain sobriquets for other peoples to one specific locale.

Even if they do, that doesn't prove anything, if Katwa was used to refer to samaale clans then all the bajuni samaale clans would be known as Katwa but they're not .

Which is ironic because your version of ‘Samaale’ is a very narrow one that is contradicted by genetics, linguistics and archaeology and leaves out a dozen extinct and existing groups that were and are part of the greater Somaloid family.

‘Somalic’ is just my substitute, but the logic remains the same.

It's not my own made up version for me to make it narrow, Reer Samaale is Reer Samaale, I don't include non reer samaale's nor do I exclude any Reer Samaale's. I'm merely following what your oral history claims.

Where's your evidence for Katwa title being used for all bajuni samaale clans?

 

[Three Moons]

Even if they do, that doesn't prove anything,

It proves my original statement, let me quote myself; “Its interesting that Kibajuni speakers historically referred to Somalic groups as ‘Katwa’”

The statement is expansive enough that you cannot exclude or isolate a specific group whether it be any community of the Kibajuni speakers or the Somalic groups without me first elaborating, and despite my clear clarification with regards to the term ‘Somalic’, you still persist in your ways.

if Katwa was used to refer to samaale clans then all the bajuni samaale clans would be known as Katwa but they're not .

Nobody claimed that. This is you setting up an argument nobody put forward and then refuting it purely based on your own opinion. There is an academic term for that, its called a Strawman Fallacy.

It's not my own made up version for me to make it narrow, Reer Samaale is Reer Samaale, I don't include non reer samaale's nor do I exclude any Reer Samaale's. I'm merely following what your oral history claims.

In past discussions you have repeatedly cast aside archaeology, genetics, historical documents, anthropology to create a ridiculously narrow definition of what is ‘Reer Samaale’ to fit your very transparent agenda.

Where's your evidence for Katwa title being used for all bajuni samaale clans?

A strawman fallacy, case in point.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

Even if they do, that doesn't prove anything, if Katwa was used to refer to samaale clans then all the bajuni samaale clans would be known as Katwa but they're not .

It's not my own made up version for me to make it narrow, Reer Samaale is Reer Samaale, I don't include non reer samaale's nor do I exclude any Reer Samaale's. I'm merely following what your oral history claims.

Where's your evidence for Katwa title being used for all bajuni samaale clans?

Katwa is never used for a non 'Reer Samaale' whatever that means. Wa-Katwa/Katwa is used for Garre Somali just a bit south of the Bajuni historically by the way.

Benadiri are 'reer Samaale' as per oral history, documents and DNA. Benadiri are merely cosmopolitan coastal Somalis who married some foreigners and were isolated due to their profession as merchants. There are those who have paternal distant ancestry but this is not very relevant those distant people assimilated into an existing Somali community.

I don't know why you are determined to write out Somalis out of their own country and these unnecessary labels.

 

[Daadhi Tarree]

At least 900 years, that’s according to the linguistic paper when Northern Swahili met Somali. If it wasn’t them, NS has been in direct contact with Somali speakers of the “maay” type for at least a 1000 years ago. IM Lewis collected a similar oral history in the region. When Somalis move, it doesn’t always have be the entire clan- it could have been one section of Tunni or a related group who lived there.

As for Madanle, they were likely a Somali Agro pastoral group who once dominated in Northern Kenya region. Their history is not so ancient, as their decline due to environmental issues and their military defeat by a coalition of other tribes is still remembered. This probably occurred in the Middle Ages. They are at times associated with the Ajuuraan, and they do even appear in their lineages

As for them not being Somali, the region of around Northern Kenya/Southern Somalia was dominated by people similar to Rendilles and other Somalis who adhered to the proto-Somali camel herding culture. The Madanle would have most likely been closely related to these people and interacted with them, hence why Somalis remember them with so much detail and they are the only group who have Madanle in their lineages. Their burial sites are said to be similar to Somalis. Thus, I refer to them as Somali from a genetic, cultural and linguistic perspective.

For the Gaalo madow thing, I believe you are referring to Madanle who were reported to be Gaal Madows around the Badioa area. This could have been the same group or an allied group, we know Agro pastoral groups stretch deep and Develop local alliances. It doesn’t have to mean the ones in Badaio and the ones around Northern Kenya were the same group. Even if we assume they were the same group, the Rendilles are a good example to show Somalis have vastly exaggerated the Gaalo Madow purges reported in their history. Rendilles have many tenants similar to Islam in their culture (praying five times a day etc) which means many of their tribes were formerly Muslim. The Somali peninsula once had folks who were entirely Muslim, some who synchronised Islam With ancient beliefs and those still followed Waaq. The fact that Rendilles till this day have a superstition about killing Somalis as they are “brothers” is an indicator the early Somali Muslim interaction with Somali/east Cushitic non believers was not always one of chasing away the “Gaal Madows”. We have sites bones of pigs alongside Muslim settlements on the Harla sites.

Therefore, the Madanles were very likely a development of the proto Somali- early Somali camel herding and Agro pastoral culture in the region. Separating them form Somalis due to them not having a “Samale lineage” is like saying Boranas and Barentus don’t come form
The same cultural stock (Oromo). Lineages and oral history are just one of facet of understanding and labelling history. It is not the be and end of all of how we understand things. I have no doubt genetic testing will show that Madanle were indistinguishable from “Samales”.

Are these madanle still around?

 

[Yami]

Are these madanle still around?

They’re rahanweyn now

 

[Daadhi Tarree]

They’re rahanweyn now

Did some become Oromos

 

[Yami]

Did some become Oromos

Definitely. They lived up to NFD where Warra Dayya and Borana’s dominated until recently