((Non-African)) “Rice farmers” in China & early civilization

Ironic that I post stuff about cHiNesE history. However they might be some of the truly ancient ancestors of mine as most Taiwanese can trace their ancestry to Southern China.
Now cut the crap and let us enter the main topic.

For starters, the Liangzhu Culture existed between 3300 BCE to 2300 BCE (Mid Gerzeh Culture - Mid Old Kingdom/ Late Predynastic-Mid Old Kingdom). They were rice farmers who called the Yangtze Delta their home unlike my Han ancestors who cultivated wheat & millet while living in northern and (relatively) western parts of ancient China.

Economically they traded with the Northern Longshan Culture and the western Yangshao Culture. However, probably due to a result of a more fertile land, the people of Liangzhu established a much more advanced civilization.

From which, they created what will be interpreted by future archaeologists as the very first and basal instances of “Taotie” (the beasts that served as main antagonists in the accursed movie “The Wall”) iconography, which would come to be adopted by early dynasties such as the Shang and Zhou (possibly the Xia too, but the Xia themselves are disputed) as a common type of sigil craved on ceremonial bronze pots.

The “script” these people might have created is now deemed as an early contributor to what would evolve into the scripts the Shang dynasty utilized.
Although, along with the Longshan’s proto-script, the supposed writing system of Liangzhu was possibly not a mature one hence historians argue about the ultimate historical position of these. The common ground among them is that a potential usage of these “scripts” via recording daily affairs is supported.

Culturally, the peoples of this culture/proto-civilization MIGHT have practiced a form of religion intermediate of Shamanism and Polytheism/ pantheon. The religion was associated with rice-cultivation as stated in the article I provide. My personal interpretation is that it influenced the following southern culture/states such as that of the Chu, Wu and Yueh of the Spring and Autumn-Warring States period.

Structurally, these people were remarkable. Trenches and water conservation-systems were present. The remains of their gatherings were deemed as superior to their contemporaries and likely comparable to the later Erlitou culture (possibly late Xia dynasty, but still too obscure to be drawn).
The brick walls found in Liangzhu culture had its height ranging from 30-40 meters. The length range from hundreds of meters to some twenty meters.
In short, it marks the dawn of Neolithic urbanization of cHiNa.

Artifacts of the culture were predominantly delicately carved jade objects with both ritualistic affinities and burial purposes.

Socially, the jade objects may have been more prominent in higher classes as we know the Liangzhu people were insanely stratified and the ruling class would very likely serve simultaneously as the so-called priest class.

This unique aspect was revived during the late Shang (ruling class took over the priest hood) and Quin & Han dynasties. Interestingly, early Shang people had both classes separated so perhaps 🤔 a class dedicated solely to priest hood emerged during the alleged Xia dynasty.

Eventually the Liangzhu disappeared from archaeological records. The reasons for the sudden and abrupt decline of this culture is to this day disputed. Some attributed it to flood, others proposed a famine destruction or perhaps a severe earthquake and followed tsunami eventually did the trick. However, the likelihood of over farming and simple draining of social resources were listed as possible/probable reasons as well.
TL; DR so many factors & hard to tell.

A hypothesized movement of the last Liangzhu people had some believe that the remaining portions were ultimately integrated in the supposedly existed Xia community. They brought with them seeds, the knowledge of rice cultivation and possibly cultic materials.

Either way, the people fucked off from the delta as the following culture the Ma Qiao was so primitive it was genuinely hard to link the two as one.

Now the following is where the fun begins.

When they genotyped the human remains the determined Y-chromosomes were predominantly O1. Thus possibly differentiating them from the traditional Hans. Sadly full autosomal DNA testing was not carried out.

Modern O1 carriers are predominantly related to Austronesians in one way or another. This discovery had led bio archaeologists to associate the culture with proto Austroasiatic groups enjoying limited gene flow from proto-Sino Tibetan speakers.

TL;DR proto Austronesians might have created the first semi-proper state on that land and with it brought in the rice-eating Asian meme.


B142753A-042C-4ADA-85FC-DF1FC24A58A5.jpeg

The “basal iconography” which marked the artistic achievement of said culture.
ACBF12CA-6791-4716-9C93-272FFF73741C.jpeg

Shang & Zhou Taotie iconography

Historians interpreted the earlier one as a symbol of a man or competent tribal leader (presented as the humanoid with weird hat) subduing the surrounding areas and the megafauna (presented as a beast which the man he’d down).
Perhaps centuries of transformation left only the beast like part.
 
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Btw those people used loess to build their brick walls and such things might have served as dykes (quite logical if you ask me, being coastal and all).
Intriguingly they had to dig wells as the mega-lakes surrounding them contained large amounts of salt.

Yeah, that’s basically my understanding and hopefully you guys on this board find it interesting in some ways. 🤨

Perhaps a breath of fresh air from a more mememable area? XD
E08931FD-A728-458C-8087-54A80B25A093.jpeg

It might have resembled this. However the human reconstructions had their clothing looking like stereotypical Native Americans so imma not post that.


Political take:

BTW, this does not vindicate a 5000-year -old Chinese civilization. There’s a point where we draw the line. The complete absence of bronze tools meant that strictly speaking its position would be quite questionable.
Plus a “Chinese race” does not exist.

Edit: Now I am just thankful the Liangzhu people did not build pyramids. Pyramids attract unwanted attention from a certain 21th century ethnic group.
 
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GemState

36/21
VIP
Plus a “Chinese race” does not exist.
Very interesting take, could you elaborate? I was under the impression that for Taiwan about two percent of the population is registered as indigenous. The other 98% are Han Chinese. Aside from a sprinkling here of Aboriginal blood, most of the people are indistinguishable from those across the Taiwan Strait.
 

Juke

VIP
What's your take on Japanese and (to a lesser degree) Korean being hybrids of para-pre-Austronesian rice farmers from the Yangtze delta mixed with Altaic (transeurasian) millet farmers of the Liao river basin?
 
Very interesting take, could you elaborate? I was under the impression that for Taiwan about two percent of the population is registered as indigenous. The other 98% are Han Chinese. Aside from a sprinkling here of Aboriginal blood, most of the people are indistinguishable from those across the Taiwan Strait.
Well, for us in Taiwan when we talk about “Chinese” normally we refer to “Han Chinese” I.e. our biological kin. However in truth China consists of various biological distinct groups.
For instance the Tibetans (close relatives of Hans. The other such group is the Qiang), the remnants of some Kra-Dai speakers, prehistoric divergent groups of Southern ST speakers, and finally the Eastern Iranic speakers.
During the WS period, the state Chu was neglected as the northern states deemed it to be “alien and barbaric”. This is likely due to significant biological and cultural influence from southern groups. Btw the Han identity officially came into existence during (you guessed it) the Han dynasty, however before that they were a *relatively northern group.

However the Chinese/PRC government, although preaches the concept of an unified “Chinese race”, in truth actually are “Han-centric” when it comes to cultural heritage and stuff. Plus the minorities enjoyed a lower threshold in major exams, which the ethnic Hans whine 24/7 (ironic that’s exactly how Taiwanese Hans react to the Natives too) about.

In Taiwan the average people are basically the descendants of southern Hans (so possible admixture from southern Chinese minorities), and the assimilated lowland Natives. Some would have minor to negligible amounts of Dutch admixture, Japanese admixture and Arabian admixture (the last one still baffles me). After 1949 we got a major influx from Northern & central Hans due to the Chinese civil war. Quite funnily we can distinguish between a Chinese especially when said Chinese speaks. Telling ourselves from Koreans and Japanese is even easier.
What's your take on Japanese and (to a lesser degree) Korean being hybrids of para-pre-Austronesian rice farmers from the Yangtze delta mixed with Altaic (transeurasian) millet farmers of the Liao river basin?
I mean, yeah, the Japs are basically exactly what you have described here. But remember they are majority Yayoi (your average stereotypical Asians with likely no ANE) rice farmers+ minor Jomon (ANE reach) HGs. Only Jomon-rich groups are the Ainu (~70%-80%) and other Natives of their islands.

Koreans are more complex. Some Koreans would be descendants of or trace significant amount of their ancestry to the Hu (steppe people, meaning ANE would be present in their gene pool) or related groups. Some even kept their clan names (now treated as their surnames), ohers are southerners native to the peninsula who likely lack ANE, still others are basically the descendants of Jurchen-related groups (Imagine something similar to stereotypical Mongolians).
 
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Juke

VIP
I mean, yeah, the Japs are basically exactly what you have described here. But remember they are majority Yayoi (your average stereotypical Asians with likely no ANE) rice farmers+ minor Jomon (ANE reach) HGs. Only Jomon-rich groups are the Ainu (~70%-80%) and other Natives of their islands.
Have you seen this study that suggests a tripartite origin, it differentiates kofun from yayoi unlike previously thought

 
Have you seen this study that suggests a tripartite origin, it differentiates kofun from yayoi unlike previously thought

I read that some time ago. Did not delve deep
into it. However thanks for bringing it up and this model is indeed more accurate. Some myths about the Japs should be set straight, such as the Nordic bastard meme.
My careless wording would be better interpreted as “minority ANE-rich groups + two distinct types of East Eurasians who lack the ANE component”.

Weirdly this is also in accordance with historical developments. A Shang related state was established in the northeast during the mid to late-Shang period this bringing in southern groups.

Northeast China and northern parts of the peninsula suffered from war, raids and famine. Make sense some would take the route. Also the historical Japs were business partners with peninsular peoples of Middle-southern areas.
 
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I really admire East Asian culture . You guys are very intelligent. Is it the diet or inviroment E. G. lack of Sun radiation that made you guys so inventive.?
 
I really admire East Asian culture . You guys are very intelligent. Is it the diet or inviroment E. G. lack of Sun radiation that made you guys so inventive.?
It’s because we wuz secretly elves and sheeiit (there are Chinese people who actually believe they were not evolved from primates but instead a master race created by Nu Wa). You know, Asians been looking young and sheeiit.

Nah, I think it has more to do with early shitty environment which forced the ancestors to come up with some peculiar ideas.
While in the first half of Chinese history they were busily fighting each other, foreign invasions were as well limited. Hence just like the Greeks they had time to develop philosophies.

All that started to decline after a man (Liu Che) promoted Confucianism as the sole method of thinking and abolished the rest.

And then 16 kingdom period happened. During that time my supposed ancestors were literally eating mercury and covering themselves with toxic stone powders to look feminine. Yeah that’s how far they had fallen. Oh and the steppe peoples feasted on them.

Tang Dynasty was sort of interesting but people just got more stagnant and shittier ever since its inevitable collapse.

After that it seemed like the people focused solely on ancient texts, poems and literature. Caring little about innovation of mathematics & science & architecture.

Just like everyone else we had some ups and downs.

My two cent is that stubbornness, xenophobia and cultural loss are three negative factors present across the globe and also the ones which led to multiple social hardships we’re currently facing.
 
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The Longshan culture had individuals of extraordinary stature who have been dubbed the "Longshan giants". Some samples of Longshan culture males recovered from Shandong fell between the 180 cm to 190 cm height range, making them taller than any other Neolithic population. Modern day inhabitants of Shandong have the tallest heights of any Chinese province.[57] The tallest Longshan individual discovered so far is a 193 cm male, aged approximately 16-18 years old, from Shaanxi.[58]
Those people were very tall. I'm not going to lie, I thought Neolithic peoples, in general, were shorter (relative to previous hunter-gatherers, and today), especially East Asians. It kind of tells us that sometimes we need to be conservative with our assumptions about the past to not extrapolate too much from extant if there isn't any valid conclusive information.
 
Those people were very tall. I'm not going to lie, I thought Neolithic peoples, in general, were shorter (relative to previous hunter-gatherers, and today), especially East Asians. It kind of tells us that sometimes we need to be conservative with our assumptions about the past to not extrapolate too much from extant if there isn't any valid conclusive information.
Yeah, mate. I honestly think it has a lot to do with diet. Perhaps eating rice is limiting Hans, who knows? But now that I think of it, northern Chinese (who eat steamed buns, dumplings, noodles, and other types of food made of soybean, millet, and wheat) do tend to be taller than southern ones (and by extension Taiwanese Hans & those living in Southeast Asia).
Interestingly, lots of Chinese scientists were baffled by this and assumed they were Indo-Europeans who brought wheat to China & greater East Asia. They even concluded that modern people in that area are likely all IE-admixed.

:deadosama::deadosama::deadosama:
 

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