Muslims, I need your input

[SecretAgent]

Theres no point in waiting until after Ramadan. The facts are the facts even during Ramadan. I ask for an explanation because I know there are no good explanations.

dr zakir naik will explain to you contact him.

 

[axmedxajiisback]

dr zakir naik will explain to you contact him.

I want to know what you Somalis on this forum think.

 

[Paladin]

Theres no point in waiting until after Ramadan. The facts are the facts even during Ramadan. I ask for an explanation because I know there are no good explanations.

If u want explanations there r plenty of threads discussing exactly this topic, they go for about 5-15 pages each. U r not special, plenty of people have brought this up and have been shut down on this site, make no mistake somalispot is a Muslim site. @The_Cosmos has argued this subject plenty of times and has received an answer each time, just view the former threads. They go in depth and pretty much everyone's opinion is the same.

 

[SecretAgent]

I want to know what you Somalis on this forum think.

We think she's the mother of believers.

 

[axmedxajiisback]

If u want explanations there r plenty of threads discussing exactly this topic, they go for about 5-15 pages each. U r not special, plenty of people have brought this up and have been shut down on this site, make no mistake somalispot is a Muslim site. @The_Cosmos has argued this subject plenty of times and has received an answer each time, just view the former threads. They go in depth and pretty much everyone's opinion is the same.

They either agree that their example (Muhammad) lusted after a six year old playing with dolls, or they make up lies about how she was actually 15. So it has been discussed. There are just more questions than answers. For example, how can you consciously follow a guy who in his 50s had sexual thoughts about a six year old playing with dolls.

 

[Paladin]

They either agree that their example (Muhammad) lusted after a six year old playing with dolls, or they make up lies about how she was actually 15. So it has been discussed. There are just more questions than answers. For example, how can you consciously follow a guy who in his 50s had sexual thoughts about a six year old playing with dolls.

U will receive the same answers as every other militant atheist. We r not bothered to entertain u ecspecially during the holy month. Also every single question u could come up with has already been answered by a Muslim on this site in a previous thread. Any ways afur is soon so I will see myself out of this thread aboowe.

20hrs son we Muslims in Scandinavia r the toughest there is, may we receive a blissful reward for fighting the good fight.

 

[axmedxajiisback]

U will receive the same answers as every other militant atheist. We r not bothered to entertain u ecspecially during the holy month. Also every single question u could come up with has already been answered by a Muslim on this site in a previous thread. Any ways afur is soon so I will see myself out of this thread aboowe.

20hrs son we Muslims in Scandinavia r the toughest there is, may we receive a blissful reward for fighting the good fight.

You will not receive a blissful reward because that reward hasn't been prepared. It doesn't exist. However, I don't feel sorry that you are starving yourself for a promise that cannot be kept.

 

[Paladin]

You will not receive a blissful reward because that reward hasn't been prepared. It doesn't exist. However, I don't feel sorry that you are starving yourself for a promise that cannot be kept.

I was trying to leave here on good terms. Get it together man, stop being so damn edgy. most likely ur entire family is fasting currently, show some bloody respect. Since u don't do dua for ur family I'll do it for u. Inahallash they receive a blissful reward for fasting and raising @axmedxajiisback, even though he is a gaal they did their duty. May his sins not fall onto them. Say amen warya it's for ur parents and family.

 

[SuldaanGuled]

Objective morality is avoiding things that hurt other human beings, like killing them, raping them, robbing them, imprisoning them, insulting them and deceiving them, among other things. Those things are objectively wrong. Objective morality is not hurting others who haven't hurt you or anyone else. In other words don't do injustice unless the person you're doing it to deserves it, in which case it isn't injustice.

Your version of morality is not logical in any way. On the commands of some entity you've never seen anywhere, you are willing to hurt others regardless of whether they deserve it or not.

So, killing 600 men and boys and enslaving their families because they reject your prophethood is objectively immoral. Those people don't deserve death because they haven't hurt anyone.

The question is how did you come to that "objectiveness" ? after all it isn't written anywhere. What criteria did you use to establish the above examples are "wrong" ? So according to you imprisoning criminals, executing them etc is morally wrong ? but why are they "wrong" ? you aren't arguing for your case, simply stating they are without mentioning the reasons as to why doesn't make them objective.

Again you're making blanket statements which end up supporting my previous point ie that value judgements are subjective. You state that unless the person deserves it don't do injustice but that is just your personal opinion on the matter, another person may make the claim that injustice has no exception. A view which contradicts yours, so whose opinion shall we take ?

Whether i've seen God or not has no bearing on my decision to follow His commandments. My decision is dependent on the evidence that is accessible to me ie i judge evidence based on it's own merit. You are willing to hurt others simply because they "deserve" it how is that different to people who're willing to hurt others for other reasons? just because their reasons for doing so are different than yours doesn't make them invalid. If the end result leads to hurting others why are you trying to rationalise your reasons as being valid but at the same invalidate other peoples opinions ?

So because they base their reasoning on God they must be invalid ? sidas miya

 

[axmedxajiisback]

The question is how did you come to that "objectiveness" ? after all it isn't written anywhere. What criteria did you use to establish the above examples are "wrong" ? So according to you imprisoning criminals, executing them etc is morally wrong ? but why are they "wrong" ? you aren't arguing for your case, simply stating they are without mentioning the reasons as to why doesn't make them objective.

Again you're making blanket statements which end up supporting my previous point ie that value judgements are subjective. You state that unless the person deserves it don't do injustice but that is just your personal opinion on the matter, another person may make the claim that injustice has no exception. A view which contradicts yours, so whose opinion shall we take ?

Whether i've seen God or not has no bearing on my decision to follow His commandments. My decision is dependent on the evidence that is accessible to me ie i judge evidence based on it's own merit. You are willing to hurt others simply because they "deserve" it how is that different to people who're willing to hurt others for other reasons? just because their reasons for doing so are different than yours doesn't make them invalid. If the end result leads to hurting others why are you trying to rationalise your reasons as being valid but at the same invalidate other peoples opinions ?

So because they base their reasoning on God they must be invalid ? sidas miya

"]The question is how did you come to that "objectiveness" ? after all it isn't written anywhere. What criteria did you use to establish the above examples are "wrong" ? So according to you imprisoning criminals, executing them etc is morally wrong ? but why are they "wrong" ?[/QUOTE]

I never said imprisoning or executing criminals is wrong. Where did I say that? Imprisoning criminals is right because it's retaliation for their actions. The person the criminal hurt is not a criminal and should not have been hurt. How is this hard or complex?


You state that unless the person deserves it don't do injustice but that is just your personal opinion on the matter, another person may make the claim that injustice has no exception. A view which contradicts yours, so whose opinion shall we take ?[/QUOTE]

No, it's not just my personal opinion. It's logical. It goes from point A to B. I have the ability to be logical. Another person who thinks it's ok to hurt people for no reason is objectively crazy. They've existed throughout history and will continue to exist.


You are willing to hurt others simply because they "deserve" it how is that different to people who're willing to hurt others for other reasons? just because their reasons for doing so are different than yours doesn't make them invalid. If the end result leads to hurting others why are you trying to rationalise your reasons as being valid but at the same invalidate other peoples opinions ?[/QUOTE]

It's different from people willing to hurt others for other reasons. In retaliating against someone, I am stopping them from hurting me again and to feel better that I got them back. I wouldn't have done this if the person didn't hurt me. So in other words, don't start shirt wont be shit. This is the basis for justice systems throughout the world and it's logical. I can defend this because it's been tried for thousands of years and has kept civilization relatively peaceful.

I'm not making your point for you because punitive systems were around well before Muhammad.

 

[NA9]

If you really wanted answers, you could google it and find millions of answers on Islamic forums by qualified Islamic scholars.
Instead you posted it here as part of your conversion mission
If you hate Islam so bad, stop obsessing over it. You have left the religion, you presumably don't live in a country that is under sharia, go and enjoy your life. Islam is under attack on all sides; nothing you can say is original and your anti-Islamic views are held by most non-Muslims. You may think you're being edgy and controversial by saying such things but you are part of the mainstream. There is no purpose in what you're doing, the vast majority of Somalis in the homeland and diaspora are Muslims. No matter how much you hate that, it won't change.
Everyone on this forum has access to the same websites you are getting your points from, none of us are "blind" and you are NOT englightening us. Seriously, if I left the religion I would never fret or worry about it. You sound insecure and it is quite embarrasing. However, you have the freedom to say anything you want, I guess.

 

[axmedxajiisback]

If you really wanted answers, you could google it and find millions of answers on Islamic forums by qualified Islamic scholars.
Instead you posted it here as part of your conversion mission
If you hate Islam so bad, stop obsessing over it. You have left the religion, you presumably don't live in a country that is under sharia, go and enjoy your life. Islam is under attack on all sides; nothing you can say is original and your anti-Islamic views are held by most non-Muslims. You may think you're being edgy and controversial by saying such things but you are part of the mainstream. There is no purpose in what you're doing, the vast majority of Somalis in the homeland and diaspora are Muslims. No matter how much you hate that, it won't change.
Everyone on this forum has access to the same websites you are getting your points from, none of us are "blind" and you are NOT englightening us. Seriously, if I left the religion I would never fret or worry about it. You sound insecure and it is quite embarrasing. However, you have the freedom to say anything you want, I guess.

Are you an atheist? Billions of people are ok with the hadith above and going on with your life is a dereliction of your duty as a human.

 

[Naissur]

No it's your argument which is completely flawed...

Yet you couldn't show that it's flawed! What you argued against in that post was not what I posted. Explain to me how you reconcile with the idea that the prophet's message and actions serve as a guide for Muslims until the end of time, and the argument that he married Aisha because it was different era? I bet you can't. That's why you went on some next hyperbole about moral subjectivity. Tell, why exactly is it wrong for you to marry a nine year old yet it was alright for him, considering his actions were meant as a guide for mankind until Yawm al-Qiyāmah?

 

[AussieHustler]

What Muslims and in particular Sunnis don't want to discuss is why did Mu'awiyah and his cousin Aisha hated Ali (cousin of Mohamed and his son-in-law) so much that Aisha has to divide the Muslims and fight Ali in one of the worst and most bloodied battles of that era, The Battle of the Camel. Mu'awiyah didn't only fight Ali but he cursed and insulted him and Sunnis are told never to mention nor discuss it. It didn't stop only there, Mu'awiyah's son Yazid butchered Hussein Bin Ali (Ali's son and the grandson of Mohamed), but Sunnis were told never to discuss it. How could you debate a flock of sheep who aren't allowed to think on their own and don't care about the injustices and the violence leashed on Mohamed's own family by the artchitects and those who invented the Sunni sect? Debate with them about hijab, that is their favourite topic.

 

[SuldaanGuled]

Yet you couldn't show that it's flawed! What you argued against in that post was not what I posted. Explain to me how you reconcile with the idea that the prophet's message and actions serve as a guide for Muslims until the end of time, and the argument that he married Aisha because it was different era? I bet you can't. That's why you went on some next hyperbole about moral subjectivity. Tell, why exactly is it wrong for you to marry a nine year old yet it was alright for him, considering his actions were meant as a guide for mankind until Yawm al-Qiyāmah?

It is relevant to it as no where in the video was it mentioned that marriage to young girls was limited to His time. It was about looking at the history context of such a marriage. The guy even mentioned modern day examples where the minimum legal age to marry was below 15. You were superimposing your own views on the facts and then concluded that we had only 2 options. The prophet (peace be upon him) married Khadija (may Allah be pleased with her ) who was 40 but out of personal preference i would not marry a woman who is 40 yrs old the same applies to a girl who is 9 yrs old.

Does it mean since i wouldn't marry a woman who is 40 yrs old that it suddenly became morally wrong for me while it was perfectly fine with the Prophet ? of course not the same is also true for a girl of 9 yrs old. No where in islamic law are we required to marry a woman/girl who is either 9, 40, 17, 18 etc it's a matter personal preference. There are many things that are permissible in diinteena but i would never do them out of choice.

Actions of the prophet come in different categories some are wajib while others are not and your lack of understanding of it is clearly showing. Worst of all you interject your skewed dogma on to the facts and then judge everything according to what you're convinced of. As if your understanding and interpretation of the facts is the valid one and should be standard for us to follow ????

Wrong, good, bad, paedophilia all of these are value judgements that you've determined using your own self defined norms and ethics(set of principles) you judge everything according to it. The important question is why should it matter to me ? why in the world should i as a muslim judge according to what you believe in or are convinced of ? What you consider to be morally right or wrong isn't objective which is why i told you that i found it funny since as an atheist your position should be one of relativeness.

If truths, morals are relative then why in the world are you outraged when other peoples morals and truths differ from yours ??? Had you been a real atheist you wouldn't be having a problem with this topic. You're nothing but a confused wannabe atheist.

Stop projecting warya !!! ya tahay mise ya isku mooda ???? meel naga faadiso baan ku iri

 

[Naissur]

No where in islamic law are we required to marry a woman/girl who is either 9, 40, 17, 18 etc it's a matter personal preference. There are many things that are permissible in diinteena but i would never do them out of choice.

I'm lost for words! You'd never do it personally, but you are okay with the prophet for having done it, and would fine with anyone doing it now.

This is actually very sad.​

 

[SuldaanGuled]

I'm lost for words! You'd never do it personally, but you are okay with the prophet for having done it, and would fine with anyone doing it now.

This is actually very sad.​

Again why should your opinion matter to me ?? young girls are getting married whether we like it or not and there are different reasons as to why they occur in the first place. I just don't buy into the whole "it's a violation of children's right" argument or that it's "morally" wrong as these are loaded terms that don't reflect the reality in the ground. Had you been raised in an environment where such marriages was the norm you wouldn't have a problem with it the reason you do is because you're looking at it with a different view. One in which where such marriages are seen to be wrong.

In islam once a girl reaches puberty she is eligible to get married but this isn't the end of it as other factors do play an important role in determining whether she is fit to get married or not. It's here where parental guidance is very vital since they are the ones who're taking care of her and her best interests should be the number one priority. It's not a secret that many parents misuse their position and end up causing harm to the girl. The problem isn't the law but those apply it for their own vested interests.

Say what you will for your opinion matters little to me. We live our lives according to our ethos so i suggest you do the same.

 

[axmedxajiisback]

Again why should your opinion matter to me ?? young girls are getting married whether we like it or not and there are different reasons as to why they occur in the first place. I just don't buy into the whole "it's a violation of children's right" argument or that it's "morally" wrong as these are loaded terms that don't reflect the reality in the ground. Had you been raised in an environment where such marriages was the norm you wouldn't have a problem with it the reason you do is because you're looking at it with a different view. One in which where such marriages are seen to be wrong.

In islam once a girl reaches puberty she is eligible to get married but this isn't the end of it as other factors do play an important role in determining whether she is fit to get married or not. It's here where parental guidance is very vital since they are the ones who're taking care of her and her best interests should be the number one priority. It's not a secret that many parents misuse their position and end up causing harm to the girl. The problem isn't the law but those apply it for their own vested interests.

Say what you will for your opinion matters little to me. We live our lives according to our ethos so i suggest you do the same.

Places that derive their morality from common sense and logic thrive and places that derive their morality from 7th century Arabia and the teachings of a highly questionable character are miserable (Sudan, Somalia, Saudi, Chad, Iraq, Syria etc.). So the terms "children's rights" or "morality" are not subjective. They have been tried over centuries and decades and have proven themselves on paper.

It doesn't depend on your view of things. If something is tried and proven, you should go with it.

 

[SuldaanGuled]

Places that derive their morality from common sense and logic thrive and places that derive their morality from 7th century Arabia and the teachings of a highly questionable character are miserable (Sudan, Somalia, Saudi, Chad, Iraq, Syria etc.). So the terms "children's rights" or "morality" are not subjective. They have been tried over centuries and decades and have proven themselves on paper.

It doesn't depend on your view of things. If something is tried and proven, you should go with it.

Tried over centuries ??? riyada kusi jir baa ku dhahay

Whatever rocks your boat

 

[axmedxajiisback]

Tried over centuries ??? riyada kusi jir baa ku dhahay

Whatever rocks your boat

Oh ok, not centuries but many decades. Better? What is the state of women's rights in Somalia? Now whats the state of women's rights in Canada? What are the main differences between those places? Somalia is in a civil war, you may say. Ok, swap Somalia for Saudi Arabia.