All good, just a reminder
HELP.
- Thread starter DojaKhat
- Start date
So sister, what do you want to discuss today?All good, just a reminder
don't fall into this slippery slope of denying ahadeeth. As muslims we hear and obey. The prophet ﷺ did marry a 6 year old and consummated that marriage when she was 9. There is absolutely no issue with this and there have been many responses to this. Look up brothers like the muslim lantern. Do not forget, the One who created you and the heavens and the earth permitted this marriage. it is He who decides what is allowed and what is disallowed.
there are many wisdoms behind the marriage to a'ishah(may Allah be pleased with her). I recommend you search them up.
Secondly, that hadith about (adult) women walking in front of you invalidating your prayer is also valid. The statement of A'ishah(may Allah be pleased with her) has no effect on this. Regardless, saying that this means women are like black dogs or donkeys is not correct either. Aa'ishah(may Allah be pleased with her) herself never meant this.
Also, Aa'ishah(may Allah be pleased with her) laying in front of the prophet ﷺ when he was praying is not that which invalidates your prayer. it is the passing by that does it.
I recommend you learn about how ahadeeth are collected. it is a very intricate and complex process. Sometimes it took years upon years to collect a single hadith, just for it to be fabricated. the ahadeeth we have are saheeh and we take from them. the muslim should not deny ahadeeth. The prophet ﷺ told us about people who would deny the ahadeeth.
My response to Omar Suleiman's lecture, I posted it a bit earlier, akhri and help me through it.
Haheey sister
also, could you send the hadith about having to do your entire wudhu again if a girl pees on you but not a boy? the general ruling is that touching impurity does not invalidate wudhu but it must be washed off before you can pray. The only thing I've found is this.
Also, I'd relax on your last statement there, lest you wrongly call something which is from the deen of Allah, a "mysoginistic insertion from pagan days"
Excuse me, then what are the societal implications of this?
When you hear of such cases in some Desi village for instance, they refer to the fact that the Prophet (SAW) did it so it's morally justified since he's the best of mankind.
How do we stop that evil from occurring in our modern Muslim communities, without implying it's immoral to f*ck kids since Nabi Muhammad did it? (pardon my language there)
you can't be vulgar and then ask people to pardon your language. You have also lied as when the prophet ﷺ consummated the marriage when she was an adult woman.
I think you need to rewire your brain on what is evil and what is good. Your outlook on what is fine and what isn't is based on your surroundings. You have the (subjective) morality of the society around you rather than the (objective) morality Allah has revealed.
If you were born exactly where you currently live 300 years ago(as a brit), you'd have no issue with slavery, looking down upon negros and colonialism.
Tell me, why is it that no one at the time of the prophet ﷺ, not the father of Aa'ishah, not Aa'ishah herself, not the enemies of the prophet ﷺ who would take any opportunity to attack him nor centuries after his ﷺ death until the 20th century? Why is it that early marriage was something completely normal in human societies for the majority of it's existance, until just now? Are all these people immoral and wrong?
It may not be the custom of the people now, but a marriage at that age and consumating that marriage at an appropriate time is no issue. Doing so at an inappropriate time is absolutely haram.
what you also must realize is that islam is not just for the 21st century. it shall not conform to the morals of a specific time which can change in as short a time frame as 100 years(relative to human history). it is for until the day of judgement. I think it was you that said that you understand that it was a thing then but not now, what if human societies decline ans people start dying around the age of 30 again? at those times, early marriages would be needed to further the human race. Would you then still say it is immoral? What would one then do if it is haram and you start getting children at 27, die at 37 and leave behind a 10 year old alone?
It is not obligatory to marry at such an age, but it is permitted. And this was decreed so by the All-Wise and the All-Knowing.
That sounds semantics brother. Islam isn't a misogynist religion so let's not turn it into that.
If they stopped at women walking in front of you would break your salah because you might stare at her or something, then this would at least not bee too wild. But say women and black dogs, and if I am not misremembering, there was a mention of donkey as well.
The majority of scholars in Islam are of the opinion that the sprinkling of pure water is sufficient to wash the urine as long as the male child is still nursing. If the male child eats solid food, its urine must be washed from the parts of the clothes and/or body where the impurities might have touched. It is worthy to note that the wudu’ (ablution) of the person who is touched by the baby’s impurities does not break nor become invalid.
Umm Qays bint Mohsin narrated, “I brought my young son, who had not started eating (ordinary food) to Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) who took him and made him sit in his lap. The child urinated on the garment of the Prophet, so he asked for water and poured it over the soiled (area) and did not wash it.” (Al-Bukhari)
`Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said concerning the urine of the child: “Sprinkle the urine of a boy and wash that of a girl.” (Authenticated by Al-Albani)
Qatadah said: “This applies so long as they are not eating food; if they are eating food then it must be washed in both cases.”
Haha, the pardon my language was just a bit of banter, I also felt like stronger language was needed there to illustrate my point.
What do you mean by 'lied' though? Lying is a deliberate act of trying to conceal the truth.
I only stated my understanding of the matter, if you think I'm wrong, try to correct me. That is the point of this thread, sxb.
Tell me why you think a nine-year-old would be classified by an adult in medieval times and not today. I already stated my thoughts on it more so in response to Mudug.
I'm Australian, not British. I can't fault you for mistaking me as one, though, since we are their former colony and have broad similarities in slang.
To make your analogy more locally accurate: "You'd be okay with the Stolen Generations era followed by the White Australia policy Aboriginals had to go through."
But I fail to see how being a product of your time excuses the immorality that occurred in said time.
If I understand your argument here correctly, Aisha's marriage is morally acceptable across all times since it was normal back then to be little girls getting married.
Send your historical sources for noone objecting to the marriage. I see it being repeated by Muslims online but they barely reference their source of information. I've been searching but to no avail.
The "Are all these people immoral and wrong?" line at the end here reeks of fallacious reasoning, though.
Just because everyone does something doesn't mean its okay and conversely, noone doing something doesn't automatically make it wrong.
I live in a society where there's a big drinking culture, always white Aussies talking about "getting on the beers after work" around me. Does that mean that it stops being immoral and wrong for me to drink and ignore the rules of Allah (SWT) to stay away from khamri? I think not.
"Inappropriate time" this is the crux of the matter here.
How do we define "inappropriate time". Surely if Allah (SWT) knows that child marriage comes with more risks and harm than one with two adults then there should be more in authentic Islamic sources that strictly condemns it.
I already realise that Islam was meant for all times and not just the 21st century. That's why I'm asking these questions.
I'm already aware that it isn't obligatory on Muslims to do that.
But why is it permitted? Most humans aren't on the level of the Prophet (SWT) morally and behaviorally so how can I trust men of this era or eras in the past to engage in child marriage without there being sinister intent?
It's not wrong to be suspicious of hadeeths as long as your intention is not to prove Islam wrong or to become murtad, neither of this is my intention and I imagine it's the same for you.
The people narrating are human beings and can make a mistake, or forget something or add something. Also like you said, the Prophet(SAW) had many enemies like the wahabis, the jews and other pagan arabs, they could easily have made up stuff.
The point is, it does not make sense for the best man created by Allah to marry a 6 year old, specially when that's quite inconsistent with his character.
It's difficult to pinpoint exact dates for the people who lived during these times. For example, khadija was supposedly 50 years old when she had Fatima, her last baby. How many 50 year old women do you know having babies naturally today? let alone 1400 years ago.
This is a bit more comforting, but why was Aisha's betrothal to the Prophet (SWT) allowed, to begin with, knowing that in the future, we'd have scary incidences of backwards village Muslim men here and there who'd prey on little girls with this aspect of the Prophet's seerah in mind to justify it?
Am I to conclude with this information in mind, that Aisha's uncommon intellect for girls of her age, as noted by historical sources (Muslim and secular) compensates for the large age gap between the two?
I tried asking these questions in person once, but I was told off by the sister in the masjid back then.
You can't ask the tough questions to strengthen your knowledge base sometimes, because some Muslims take that as either you trying to disprove Islam like a murtad or feel embarassed that they can't answer.
This is exactly what's bugging me too.
I also don't get murtad allegations that the Prophet (SAW) enjoyed touching up on kids, becuase if his marriage with Aisha was purely (or partly) based on lust for physically undeveloped females, then why was she the only one?
Surely with his power and status during the later part of his prophethood, he'd be able to access more of them to marry via the convenient cover of political alliances or what have you.
So why didn't he?
Rare =/= Impossible
Prophet Nuh lived up to 950 years old. That's now impossible but we still accept it to have occurred, regardless.
As for the baby, we do have women today who've been blessed with near superhuman fertility and have birthed babies in later ages, so it isn't too much a stretch of the imagination to accept Khadija had her last baby at 50 years old.
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Ok, so you got a problem with aisha being 9 in the time of consummation? What you need to understand first and foremost is that Islam forbids pedophilia. The definition for pedophilia is fancying and preying on prepubescent children. Sister, what you need to understand that there was not a concept of being 18 years old to be legal and whatnot. In fact, Aisha already got proposed to numerous times which her father Abu bakr rejected. This means that in preislamic arabia, it was totally normal to marry a girl of that age. Aisha underwent puberty and was psychologically mature when she got married to the prophet. Girls and boys married as soon when they reached the biological age to produce. There wasnt the prolonged childhood concept that we have today due to capitalism and westernisation.The prophet Mohammed may peace be upon hims first marriage was with khadija at the age of 25 she was 15 years older than him. He spent all of his prime and youth with her till she died at the age of 65. His second marriage was with Sawda, a widow his age, in which he wanted to help her and console her as the status of widows was not favourable preislamic era. As to why the prophet married Aisha, Allah ordered him to do so in a dream. Please ask yourself why didnt the kuffar deem this immoral till the 1900s? if this was deemed normal during that time and no enemies of the prophet attacked him for marrying aisha? Who dictates whats moral or not? Our creator or james down the pub? She was physically able to produce kids and was mentally mature and her society and the creator deemed her fit for marriage. I am by no means well versed on this certain topic i suggest you ask the well learned scholarsI just watched the video. I like Omar Suleiman and I trust his credentials, as per below:
View attachment 327996
But do you know what historical references he used to compile this 22 minute lecture? I would like to read more deeply into it and frankly, I don't trust speeches at face value even when I have no problem with the speaker themselves.
I'm already familiar with the story of the concubine who rejected her owner in front of Rasulullah that was mentioned in his lecture here but I need more...
I understand the principle of Islam coming to solve problems more pragmatically instead of operating under the assumption that the world is perfect as it is like other hippy-dippy forms of spirituality, so I think I can accept concubinage a bit more if I do more historical research - it's the age of Aisha (RA) at the time of consummation that irks me.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5gDTh-6X9vo
So I'm supposed to just take a leap of faith to believe in Islam then?
We cannot verify dreams so it's either that I have to search for other evidence of Islam's validity.
It hurts me to say this but I'm not sure I believe in this religion anymore.
I'll still keep pushing through it, because the psychological benefits of spirituality far outweigh the empty lifestyle of being irreligious and other religions come off as too nonsensical to consider.
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Yea a lot of it doesn't add up and we need to allow people to ask these hard questions. They only help solidfiy your faith. I detest "shaikhs" or religious people who close the doors on these questions not knowing they are only driving people away from the religion.I tried asking these questions in person once, but I was told off by the sister in the masjid back then.
You can't ask the tough questions to strengthen your knowledge base sometimes, because some Muslims take that as either you trying to disprove Islam like a murtad or feel embarassed that they can't answer.
This is exactly what's bugging me too.
I also don't get murtad allegations that the Prophet (SAW) enjoyed touching up on kids, becuase if his marriage with Aisha was purely (or partly) based on lust for physically undeveloped females, then why was she the only one?
Surely with his power and status during the later part of his prophethood, he'd be able to access more of them to marry via the convenient cover of political alliances or what have you.
So why didn't he?
Rare =/= Impossible
Prophet Nuh lived up to 950 years old. That's now impossible but we still accept it to have occurred, regardless.
As for the baby, we do have women today who've been blessed with near superhuman fertility and have birthed babies in later ages, so it isn't too much a stretch of the imagination to accept Khadija had her last baby at 50 years old.
For me, the only thing I cannot accept is that fact that the prophet's wives were mostly divorcees except for few, and several of them were older than him like khadija, sawda and couple more I can't remember now. It was not in his nature to marry young girls. People need to stop with the semantics. 6 year old girl is a baby today, in our western world where kids drink and eat foods full of hormones like estrogen meaning a 6 year old girl today is more likely to look older than a 6 year old from the prophet's time. Point is 6 years old is a baby at any period of time, past or present.
Don't leave the religion because certain parts of it isn't making sense to you.
Instead just reject the parts that make no sense to you, but with good intention, and if there's some knowledge out there that can remove those doubts and questions, even better.
Maybe when you're older and smarter, a lot of it will make sense.
Finally, while I am a firm believer in Islam today, I know a lot of Muslims make things worse sometimes. Specially so called shaikhs, in the way they spread their messages.
Back pedal a little bit dont rashly jump into conclusions sister. Its not good to be hasty with judgements. Imagine all of us muslims do what you do, there would be no muslims left. Yes theres a narration saying the prophet saw a dream from God telling him to marry aisha? Why do you have an issue with that? Mind you the prophet is not a normal human being hes the prophet, ofcourse he’d see revelations in dreams and be able to perform miracles such as heal the sick and split the moon for the kaffir arabs and the world to behold. Please do your research dont let westerners color your vision and make you biased. Asked the learned people I’ll be honest dont go to laymen like us on here to learn your deen. Go ask the learned people.
I keep asking about the BIOLOGICAL capacity for Aisha to have tolerated the marriage, but all I get in return is one of two things:
- "Why are you referring to the moral standards of the kuffar?" as if seeing Anglo-Aussies French-kiss their fur babies on the beach hasn't lowkey made me xenophobic towards dadka cadaan lol, I don't look up at them and their ideas at all.
- "She was considered mature enough for the marriage, so it was acceptable." I think we can all accept that prolonged childhood in the psychological sense is a more recent phenomenon. She was noted to be an intellectual who recorded thousands of hadith so taking it from intellect to psychological maturity isn't too hard of a logical leap to make. But she had the physical maturity for sexual intercourse? That sounds like a stretch.
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