GENETICS G25 results & models (relevant discussions as well)

[Nilo-Saharan]

[/SPOILER]
You have no Horner Hunter-Gatherer ancestry and you are on the higher-end of Arabian ancestry compared to many Somalis.Nice results walaal!

What are you supposed to Model the HG in Somalis with because Mota doesn't seem to give a good fit and sometimes doesn't show up at all on models.

 

[Garaad Awal]

More than Moroccans? I can definitely see that being true for the Saharan communities in Morocco that retain a Berber language and identity but your average city-goer in Agadir or Rabat? Isn't Somali Arabian less than 10% or am I wrong here?

Saharans are heavily Arabian across the Maghreb as the Arab nomadic tribes preferred these regions. You have zero clue what you are talking about, the only reason my wife has heavy Arabian is because she’s half Saharawi (SE Morocco) which was heavily settled by the Yemeni Bani Ma3qil and Ashraaf from Hijaz.

Rabat and the Atlantic plains (including Casablanca etc) is where the Arabs of Morocco (mostly Bani Hilal) also heavily settled. Agadir and the surrounding areas in the south is a Berber region tho

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

Saharans are heavily Arabian across the Maghreb as the Arab nomadic tribes preferred these regions. You have zero clue what you are talking about, the only reason my wife has heavy Arabian is because she’s half Saharawi (SE Morocco) which was heavily settled by the Yemeni Bani Ma3qil and Ashraaf from Hijaz.

Rabat and the Atlantic plains (including Casablanca etc) is where the Arabs of Morocco (mostly Bani Hilal) also heavily settled. Agadir and the surrounding areas in the south is a Berber region tho

I know about the Arab tribes that settled the Saharan regions in Morocco but my comment was talking mainly about the Nomadic Berber groups to the South. Kinda like the ones that also dwell in most of Algeria's Saharan south and expanded into Niger and Mali.

 

[Garaad Awal]

I know about the Arab tribes that settled the Saharan regions in Morocco but my comment was talking mainly about the Nomadic Berber groups to the South. Kinda like the ones that also dwell in most of Algeria's Saharan south and expanded into Niger and Mali.

There aren’t nomadic Berbers in Southern Morocco (they are cultivators) or the Western Moroccan Sahara. There are no Tuaregs in Morocco unlike in Algeria.

The Northern Saharan & plains of Algeria are dominated by Bani Hilal Arabs and other Arab nomadic tribes. While Moroccan Saharan nomads are mostly the Yemeni descended Bani Ma3qil which dominate the Moroccan SW Sahara all the way to Mauritania. While the Hilali Arabs dominate the Atlantic plains. The Berber speakers in Morocco are restricted to the Mountains which does make up the majority of the country.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

There aren’t nomadic Berbers in Southern Morocco (they are cultivators) or the Western Moroccan Sahara. There are no Tuaregs in Morocco unlike in Algeria.

The Northern Saharan & plains of Algeria are dominated by Bani Hilal Arabs and other Arab nomadic tribes. While Moroccan Saharan nomads are mostly the Yemeni descended Bani Ma3qil which dominate the Moroccan SW Sahara all the way to Mauritania. While the Hilali Arabs dominate the Atlantic plains. The Berber speakers in Morocco are restricted to the Mountains which does make up the majority of the country.

I see. So the Tuareg constitute the only Nomadic sub-group of the Berber or do there exist other Nomadic communities?

And how does the amount of Arabian show up for Arab-Berbers? I assume Arab-Berbers are mostly urbanised or would they be mostly rural like the Berber speakers in the Atlas mountains?

 

[Doctorabdi]

I see. So the Tuareg constitute the only Nomadic sub-group of the Berber or do there exist other Nomadic communities?

And how does the amount of Arabian show up for Arab-Berbers? I assume Arab-Berbers are mostly urbanised or would they be mostly rural like the Berber speakers in the Atlas mountains?

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[Garaad Awal]

I see. So the Tuareg constitute the only Nomadic sub-group of the Berber or do there exist other Nomadic communities?

Historically in Morocco there were nomadic Berbers groups but with migrations with the Almoravids to the North and then later on the Arab tribal migrations which probably absorbed many of the remaining nomadic Berber groups. The Tuaregs are the only modern remaining Berber Saharan nomads.

And how does the amount of Arabian show up for Arab-Berbers? I assume Arab-Berbers are mostly urbanised or would they be mostly rural like the Berber speakers in the Atlas mountains?

Historically the Urban centers were not Arab but were Arabic speaking which is why the urban centers historically spoke different dialects from the Bedouin Arabs, linguistis categorize the Maghreb dialects as Hilali vs non-Hilali Urban Arabic. The Arabs in the Maghreb were rural as they mostly all descend from the same wave of Arab tribes (Hilal,Sulaym, Ma3qil etc) after the year 1000 CE.

In Morocco Arabian ancestry peaks in the Atlantic Plains & SE Morocco. You can find some individuals in the North with significant Arabian ancestry but it's quite rare.

 

[Garaad Awal]

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[Garaad Awal]

Yemenis from various regions:

 

[Garaad Awal]

Triabl Saudis of Bedouin Origin

SaudiA:Urbanized Saudis (most likely with foreign origins)
Saudi: More Bedouin indigenous Saudis

 

[Garaad Awal]

Palestinians

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

By contrast, in various autosomal DNA studies, the northern Nilotes have appeared to be almost completely of African ancestry. For example, in the African Genome Variation Project’s analysis, the Dinka sample showed no extraneous influence at K=2 (cf. Gurdasani et al. (2015)).

This apparent lack of non-African affinities is why the Dinka, Nuer and other northern Nilotes have often been used by researchers as proxies for the African component. In 2017, Skoglund et al. compared the same AGVP Dinka sample to that of an ancient South Cushitic pastoralist (Luxmanda), the first such specimen to be genetically analyzed. In their admixture analysis, the Dinka individuals now all of a sudden showed almost 30% non-African ancestry at the K=2 level. Judging by the existing uniparental marker data, it’s pretty clear why that is: there was non-African ancestry buried within the northern Nilote gene pool, and that ancestry was specifically derived from earlier Cushitic peoples such as Luxmanda.This, in a nutshell, explains why the Dinka, Nuer and other northern Nilotes often fit well as proxies for the African component in admixture testing models. However, the problem with using such admixed groups in these analyses is that doing so leads to highly distorted estimates of ancestry proportions. For example, let’s say a researcher is testing admixture models on qpAdm and finds that his modern Cushitic or Ethiosemitic-speaking population is best modeled as 50% Neolithic Levantine + 50% Dinka. What that program is really telling him is that his sample is best modeled as 50% Neolithic Levantine + X% ancient Nilotic + X% ancient Cushitic.

This again stems from the fact that the Dinka are not a purely African population, but rather a Nilote-descended community with significant Cushitic admixture (whence was derived their non-African ancestry). When factoring in the ~30% of non-African ancestry that Skoglund et al. (2017) detected in their Dinka reference sample, the estimated whole genome ancestry apportionment then actually becomes 50% Neolithic Levantine + 35% African + 15% unclassified Eurasian. This necessary adjustment therefore brings the non-African total to around 65%. The same corrective adjustment would have to be made if the African reference sample were a southern Nilotic group, such as the Maasai Nilotes (e.g. when the ~30% of West Eurasian admixture in Ali et al. (2020)‘s East African proxy sample (Maasai) is taken into account, the estimated non-African ancestry for their northeastern Somali sample rises to 70%; this more accurate total is close to Hodgson et al.’s 66% average for their general ethnic Somali sample).

That’s also before correcting for linkage disequilibrium bias, which, as Hodgson et al. (2014) observed and Choudhury et al. (2020) also demonstrated, would increase the Cushitic speakers’ Eurasian total even further. Put simply, there is considerable extra non-African ancestry in the genome of the Afro-Asiatic-speaking sample which is not being counted. This results in an inaccurate overall estimation of ancestry proportions. It also conflicts with scientific data gathered through other means (viz. craniometric analysis, anthropometric analysis, linguistics).

The maternal haplogroups distributed today among the northern Cushitic and Ethiosemitic-speaking populations in the Horn of Africa do not support the claim that there was significant admixture between their Afro-Asiatic-speaking male ancestors and Nilotic females. This idea first gained prominence after the publication of Watson et al. (1996) and Watson et al. (1997), two early mtDNA studies which reported that the analyzed Somali (sampled in Kenya) and Tuareg Berber (sampled in Niger) individuals primarily belonged to the L3 mtDNA haplogroup. Comas et al. (1999) similarly indicated that only 5%-27% of Ethiopians bore non-African mtDNA lineages. However, it turns out that these results were inaccurate since the L3 macroclade’s phylogeny had not yet been fully resolved. Specifically, many of the samples that were at the time presumed to represent L3 carriers actually belonged to derivatives of the N haplogroup. Martin Richards, who served as a co-author on Watson et al. (1997), explains the situation thusly:

source:

@Garaad Awal

What do you think of this?

I know someone already disproved this but if it means anything I tried a make-do model with simulated coords.

This post here was of interest to me and led me to experiment and see what would come up:

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/4000-year-old-hair-from-the-middle-nile-highlights-unusual-ancient-dna-degradation-pattern-and-a-potential-source-of-early-eastern-africa-pastoralists.139699/post-3453819

I saw someone simulate the Mota coords on here a while back to remove the South African HG and Eurasian and I remember them pointing out how it was a decent stand-in for deep Northeast African ancestry. Obviously, any model using this sim has a crazy high distance, and it's a modified HG coord, but it does an alright job at putting out numbers to separate AEA from any more recent ancestries like Cushitic or Niger-congo types found in Nilotes.


Not that much at all. The outlier one has some Cushitic though. I have no idea how accurate this is though take this with a grain of salt, petty estimations at best.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

Triabl Saudis of Bedouin Origin
View attachment 312091

SaudiA:Urbanized Saudis (most likely with foreign origins)
Saudi: More Bedouin indigenous Saudis
View attachment 312092

Surprised at the amount of Saudis with mostly Cushitic SSA. I always assumed their SSA would be limited to Eastern Bantu, maybe some minor Nilotic.

 

[Garaad Awal]

Surprised at the amount of Saudis with mostly Cushitic SSA. I always assumed their SSA would be limited to Eastern Bantu, maybe some minor Nilotic.

Horners have been there even before Islam and is found mostly in these pure Saudis & Yemenis.Even the Yemenite Jew has it which shows it's from the pre-Islamic era and we know even from the Seerah that many Horners were present in Arabia.The first martyr in Islam was a Horner woman Sumaya R.A. What I noticed with many of these Horner admixed Sahaba is that their Arabian side was mostly Yemeni.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

Horners have been there even before Islam and is found mostly in these pure Saudis & Yemenis.Even the Yemenite Jew has it which shows it's from the pre-Islamic era and we know even from the Seerah that many Horners were present in Arabia.The first martyr in Islam was a Horner woman Sumaya R.A. What I noticed with many of these Horner admixed Sahaba is that their Arabian side was mostly Yemeni.

Yeah I don't know why I didn't expect it to really show up as much as it did for the Saudis. I just imagined it to be like a 2-3% in a couple of individuals. Yemenis it's well-known though they have a lot of Horner SSA anyway.

 

[Garaad Awal]

Muslim Egyptian results:

 

[Garaad Awal]

This guy probably descends from the Huwarra Berber tribe which ruled Upper Egypt (Southern Historical Egypt) in the Middle Ages

Target: Egyptian_El_Araba_El_Madfuna Distance: 2.1398% / 0.02139819
32.4	Berber
25.6	Ancient_Egyptian
20.2	Arabian
14.6	SSA
7.2	Levantine

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

Muslim Egyptian results:
View attachment 312286
View attachment 312287
View attachment 312288
View attachment 312289

Are these the same Egyptians used for the Modern Egyptian averages in Moriopoulus collection?

I assume the SSA is a proxy for Both Nilo-saharan and Niger-Congo ancestries. Is the Cuhsitic proxy Modern or Ancient?

 

[Garaad Awal]

Are these the same Egyptians used for the Modern Egyptian averages in Moriopoulus collection?

I assume the SSA is a proxy for Both Nilo-saharan and Niger-Congo ancestries. Is the Cuhsitic proxy Modern or Ancient?

The Cushitic proxy is ancient & modern samples ( a Somali with zero Arabian ancestry and low Mota ancestry)

 

[Diini23]

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If you don’t mind can you do mine as well. I’m a mix of absame and hiraab.


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Khalid,-0.0274,0.0092,-0.0045,-0.0228,-0.0003,-0.0132,-0.0077,0.0007,0.0612,-0.0475,-0.0054,-0.0091,0.0031,0.0026,0.0159,-0.0186,0.0116,-0.0058,0.0056,-0.0059,0.0055,0.0037,-0.0059,-0.0017,0.0019