Does Diin la'aan Lead to Dhiig la'aan
- Thread starter Justathought
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I go back and forth between whether I think somalia should embrace secularism or not.
I used to support full secularism, but then I realized that somalia would become way too influenced by the west, and we would be subject to what they deem is right and wrong. The west is amazing, but they have huge issues with divorce rates, fertility rates, high taxes, and bureaucracy to name a few. They also are very subjective.
I think the best road is to fully support our sheikhs, and to support moderate sheikhs compared to others. Also, discourage them from speaking on certain political topics and heated issues. Kind of like mufti menk or shabir ally. Those are ideal sheikhs IMO. They know how to give sound messages and they avoid divisive issues, and when they do they are calm about it.
I used to support full secularism, but then I realized that somalia would become way too influenced by the west, and we would be subject to what they deem is right and wrong. The west is amazing, but they have huge issues with divorce rates, fertility rates, high taxes, and bureaucracy to name a few. They also are very subjective.
I think the best road is to fully support our sheikhs, and to support moderate sheikhs compared to others. Also, discourage them from speaking on certain political topics and heated issues. Kind of like mufti menk or shabir ally. Those are ideal sheikhs IMO. They know how to give sound messages and they avoid divisive issues, and when they do they are calm about it.
Nah man infact I'd support it cause it's their country that's why I don't care about trump deporting Somalis after all it's his countryBut if halal meat was outlawed in the west you'd be the first to cry...
Merchant of Mogadishu
From Pella to Pattala, then back to Babylon
قَدْ جَاءَكُمْ بَصَائِرُ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ ۖ فَمَنْ أَبْصَرَ فَلِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ عَمِيَ فَعَلَيْهَا ۚ وَمَا أَنَا عَلَيْكُمْ بِحَفِيظٍ
There has come to you enlightenment from your Lord. So whoever will see does so for [the benefit of] his soul, and whoever is blind [does harm] against it. And [say], "I am not a guardian over you."
Al An’am (6: 104)
Soo Dhawaada everyone. Did not think this thread would pop off.
With regards to your first paragraph I already mentioned that Somali Christian. My question was with regards to those who discard their Somalinimo and are mentally colonized with the belief in western superiority.
I agree with you on the 2nd paragraph.
As it pertains to Somalis. Somalis are people who have never traditionally been one nation and this is where the majority of out problems stem from.
You have 2 extremes i.e Some Somalis who discount their history and believe we were all grave worshipping savages before the Saudi doctrine reached our shores vs Some Somali atheists who think we were Muslims Savages who have no history to be proud of.
Surely there is a medium?
And Islam and Somalinimo does come second to Somalis. That's why we're in the mess we are today.
Pride in your history. We were not in darkness before the white man. We have a long history to be proud of.
With regards to your first paragraph I already mentioned that Somali Christian. My question was with regards to those who discard their Somalinimo and are mentally colonized with the belief in western superiority.
I agree with you on the 2nd paragraph.
I guess we've had different experiences. Many of the ones I know of are heavily in the sunken place. Which is why I asked if there is a medium.
Ethiopia is not a good example. It is literally kept together by force as well as support from the west. A country where 6% of the population rules is a country that will fall apart at some point. Are you a Somali gaal? When I speak of lack of loyalty and ignorance this is what I mean. Ethiopia is a terrible example. Any knowledgeable Somali would know about the treatment of various ethnicities including our own in that country is not something ideal or desirable.
As it pertains to Somalis. Somalis are people who have never traditionally been one nation and this is where the majority of out problems stem from.
Our history didn't start in the 90's. Why do you discount our long history? When I say lack of loyalty this is an example.
You have 2 extremes i.e Some Somalis who discount their history and believe we were all grave worshipping savages before the Saudi doctrine reached our shores vs Some Somali atheists who think we were Muslims Savages who have no history to be proud of.
Surely there is a medium?
And Islam and Somalinimo does come second to Somalis. That's why we're in the mess we are today.
Our history begs to differ. We were a tiny group who were a force in the Horn and I'm proud of that. Are you?
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Adoonka
Sxb, you are right, our history didn't start with the tribal anarchy and we had a long history where Somalis were tolerant of each other and the non-Muslim Somalis, be they Christians and Atheists trained as Military officers and in other fields in East and Western countries were the most patriotic Somalis. However, since 1990, many claim Somalis became closer to their religion and closer "to their God" and the overwhelming majority practice it till today. The patriotism was replaced by destructive and evil tribal forces by these religious people, why?
The two extremes that has destroyed Somalia are religious-tribal Somalis and their co-religious brethren, Alshabab. The latter (a puritanical 7th Century Islam in practice) proved that Somalis aren't really interested in Islam or to live like Mohamed did, but they are prepared to live in a hell-hole they created and will die for their clan's interest. Some years ago, I volunteered to work with an agency that built wells for the nomads and the intention of the project was to keep these warring clans apart by utilising their own wells. Not Islam and neither Somalinimo could make them cooperate and tolerate one another. To cut a long story short, the initial start of the project became problematic and was delayed many times as each clan urged (via violent threats towards staff) that the project should be started in their zone. There were other clan middle men whose sole intention was to steal and appropriate the machinery and everything saleable in the markets. There were threats of Alshabaab hanging on these staff's shoulders. It was a situation of a Stone Age like mentality and all of these people prayed. Are these savages your Somali patriots who uphold Somalinimo? How? Islam as practiced purely by Alshabab is savagery and Somali clannism is evil too, the two are two sides of the same coin. Let's return that cursed place and it's people when Somalis tolerated one another, worshipped less and were more productive and self-sufficient than currently and Somalinimo was on it's peak. Let's take baby-steps to get rid of these evil ideologies (intolerant-Islam and Clannism) and utilise every Somali to rebuild it. Or, let Sheikh so and so and illiterate odeyaasha dhaqanka turn it further into a hell-hole that would be impossible to fix it.
Is that the cushitic history of the cursed Kush in the biblical story that others labelled you and is/was (now too) based the slavery and colonisation and of racism today? Are you celebrating being the progeny of a cursed "black" fella?
If not that history, a smart person who has lost everything doesn't dwell in the past to feel good, but will attempt all in h/her power not sink deeper into the abyss. Sxb, get off from your high horse and let's try to fix that hell-hole together.
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AdoonkaAlle
Ragna qowl baa xira, dumarna meher baa xira.
Bal ila arka qofkaan
Khamrada miya ku maqaan mise maskaxda ayaa laga haya waa mide ????
If you want to reply to my comments at least quote what i said stop fabricating stuff, the posted you replied to was made by @Justathought it's the post above yours how my name ended up there you need to explain
NICCA
هدا بلدي
I made a mistake
Addoonka
Sxb thanks for bringing my attention to my mistake, it was addressed towards Just A Thought and if it made you offended, my apologies.
Sxb thanks for bringing my attention to my mistake, it was addressed towards Just A Thought and if it made you offended, my apologies.
NICCA
هدا بلدي
Look haven't read that Somali Islamic history forged our history. That's what made us our peak.
It made up almost for almost 900 years of our history most pre Islamic history is not even recorded well.
The kuffar from day 1 told us where we from and our secular country be ingorant of our own deen history.
It made up almost for almost 900 years of our history most pre Islamic history is not even recorded well.
The kuffar from day 1 told us where we from and our secular country be ingorant of our own deen history.
what kind of question is this? of course not kaafirnimo does not lead to dhiig laa'an. Because islam is only an idealogy, a belief system. Islam is not what the entire somali dhaqan is right?
but what does make you a self hater is not loving your dhaqan, luuqad, dadkaaga etc. if not being muslim is the same as not being somali, then what were our
ancestors?many of them were non muslim for sure...
the reason you believe this is because you have only probably met the western born somali atheist who are liberal and dont follow cultural norms. If you met a somali born in somalia who was an atheist, you'd definetly consider them somali.
but what does make you a self hater is not loving your dhaqan, luuqad, dadkaaga etc. if not being muslim is the same as not being somali, then what were our
ancestors?many of them were non muslim for sure...
the reason you believe this is because you have only probably met the western born somali atheist who are liberal and dont follow cultural norms. If you met a somali born in somalia who was an atheist, you'd definetly consider them somali.
Most of the people in Somalia are Muslims, how is that they're in conflict? Of course you'll say clanism but if lack of diin lead to diiglaan what about having a diin?
Do you think our history star
There is no such thing as a somali born in Somalia that's atheist btw Somalia has been muslim for as long as Islam has existed our dhaqan language everything is related to Islam so stop making this nonsensical argumentwhat kind of question is this? of course not kaafirnimo does not lead to dhiig laa'an. Because islam is only an idealogy, a belief system. Islam is not what the entire somali dhaqan is right?
but what does make you a self hater is not loving your dhaqan, luuqad, dadkaaga etc. if not being muslim is the same as not being somali, then what were our
ancestors?many of them were non muslim for sure...
the reason you believe this is because you have only probably met the western born somali atheist who are liberal and dont follow cultural norms. If you met a somali born in somalia who was an atheist, you'd definetly consider them somali.
i was only speaking theoretically btw. And yes of course there are somalis born in somalia who are atheist, they might only be in the 100s but their are some, there has to be. And you know before the 80s our culture wasnt crazy like this and many people didnt practise back then. My argument is 100% right, you only think those non muslim somalis arent somali enough because you believe being somali is just being a muslim arab bootyclapper, tragic.
And i would also like to say that arab bootyclappers are as much self haters like atheists.
Non practicing isn't the same as an atheist before the 80s Somalis were still muslim it's not Arab bootyclapping that's just a fact btw this argument won't go anywhere so I'm just gonna tell yout his say you're a gaal in Somalia or insult the prophet and see what happens and you'll know if being Somali is the same as being a Muslim
This fantastical fairy tale of Somalis tolerating gaalnimo is just not true by and large. Apart from minority incidences such as the well known Somali Christian family or Somalis who were raised by priests during colonial times in Somalia this just wasn't the case. What you keep to yourself is another sheeko entirely. Somalis have been Muslim for the past millenia even the Saudi's only recently started practicing wahabbism in the scheme of things. So saying Al-Shabab is a representation of Islam or that even Salafism is, isn't very logical. Most Muslims aren't in fact Wahabbi even today. Yall are entitled to believe what you want but my intent with this post was to call out what some of yall refer to as bootyclapping. You don't have to do it for Arabs and you don't have to do for the west either.
As to your last excerpt on the bible not sure what you want me to say to that lol?
Islam is closely entwined with the Somali Dhaqan TODAY. Most Somalis merely hypothesize about our previous history. We don't know what it was for a fact. Not sure what the point is of bringing up people who lived more than a millenia ago and how that effects how we live today. Some of yall lack reading comprehension. My 1st post was about the observation I made about Somali gaals and their worship of the west. Can you love your people while looking up to the people who seek to actively destroy them?what kind of question is this? of course not kaafirnimo does not lead to dhiig laa'an. Because islam is only an idealogy, a belief system. Islam is not what the entire somali dhaqan is right?
but what does make you a self hater is not loving your dhaqan, luuqad, dadkaaga etc. if not being muslim is the same as not being somali, then what were our
ancestors?many of them were non muslim for sure...
the reason you believe this is because you have only probably met the western born somali atheist who are liberal and dont follow cultural norms. If you met a somali born in somalia who was an atheist, you'd definetly consider them somali.
Once again Somali history didn't start in the 90's and the concept of the nation-state is a fairly new concept.
Justathought
Sxb, wow just wow, historical revisionism would have been great in sowing doubts (in the long past history) about the mainstream accepted history, but millions of Somalis are still alive who witnessed all or portions of our history since independence. It is a well known fact that most Somalis didn’t practice Islam other than fasting Ramadan and eid prayers. Even during Ramadan, people ate and puffed cigerattes without being labelled “murtads”. Alcohol consumption, bars, nightclubs were available and romantic relationships were openly displayed by couples who weren’t married. Religious differences were tolerated where Somali Christians openly attended and prayed in their churches. Women rarely wore hijabs. Sxb, these were the facts about Somalis and their toleration towards lax-Muslims and non-Muslim Somalis. Yet, they were considered Somalis through and through because the majority of them were the most educated and the professional elite.
Fast forward to the revolution in 1969 where the new regime pursued an ideology of scientific socialism aka communism. Step by step all laws that were compatible to the spirit of Islam were eroded. Thousands of officers were sent to the Soviet Union and other Warsaw Pact member states. These officers brought with them ideological allegiance to communism. They were known to be social drinkers and many of them were atheists. Somalia was a producer of alcohol and Somalis tolerated it. Females played all sorts of sports dressed like their male counterparts and they were not only tolerated but accepted. Arguably, it was a period when somalinimo was its peak till the advent of Wahhabism.
When Wahhabism and Islamism appeared in our horizon, it was the beginning of the end of our toleration towards one another. With islamism its height in Somalia, anarchy ensued. Marka, tell me, which era would you have picked? Enough with this childish revisionism.
Sxb, wow just wow, historical revisionism would have been great in sowing doubts (in the long past history) about the mainstream accepted history, but millions of Somalis are still alive who witnessed all or portions of our history since independence. It is a well known fact that most Somalis didn’t practice Islam other than fasting Ramadan and eid prayers. Even during Ramadan, people ate and puffed cigerattes without being labelled “murtads”. Alcohol consumption, bars, nightclubs were available and romantic relationships were openly displayed by couples who weren’t married. Religious differences were tolerated where Somali Christians openly attended and prayed in their churches. Women rarely wore hijabs. Sxb, these were the facts about Somalis and their toleration towards lax-Muslims and non-Muslim Somalis. Yet, they were considered Somalis through and through because the majority of them were the most educated and the professional elite.
Fast forward to the revolution in 1969 where the new regime pursued an ideology of scientific socialism aka communism. Step by step all laws that were compatible to the spirit of Islam were eroded. Thousands of officers were sent to the Soviet Union and other Warsaw Pact member states. These officers brought with them ideological allegiance to communism. They were known to be social drinkers and many of them were atheists. Somalia was a producer of alcohol and Somalis tolerated it. Females played all sorts of sports dressed like their male counterparts and they were not only tolerated but accepted. Arguably, it was a period when somalinimo was its peak till the advent of Wahhabism.
When Wahhabism and Islamism appeared in our horizon, it was the beginning of the end of our toleration towards one another. With islamism its height in Somalia, anarchy ensued. Marka, tell me, which era would you have picked? Enough with this childish revisionism.
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Aussie I know of family today who've spent their entire lives in baadiyo who don't even know the shahadah but they say they are Muslim. Being a bad Muslim or being ignorant doesn't mean you're not a Muslim. As it pertains to atheists unless they were out prosletyzing or insulting the deen then i'm sure they were left alone. We all have old school family members who are very irreligious who knows what they believe?
This entire argument wasnt the point of my thread.
This entire argument wasnt the point of my thread.
Somalis had such a huge love affair with Islam because that's their Deen. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that, doesn't know the Somali people.
Just read some of the Somali poems that were read over a 100 years ago.
This is a poem recited by Ugaas Nuur at a clan peace conference of Isaaq, Ciise and Samaroon well over a 100 years ago:
"Soomaliyeey Islaam baan nihiyo ubadkii Xaawaad eh.
Ashahaadadii waan qirnaa tii Islaanimo eh.
Ma inkiro Rasuulkiyo Jibriiliyo aayadaha quraanka eh
Hadana waan is layna sidii ubadka Shaydaan eh"
Translation:
"Oh Somalis we are an Islamic people, the descendants of Hawwa (Eve).
We testify the Shahada of Islam.
I do not deny the Messenger, Jibril (Gabriel) and the verses of the Qur'an.
Yet again we manage to slay one another like the spawns of the devil!"
Just read some of the Somali poems that were read over a 100 years ago.
This is a poem recited by Ugaas Nuur at a clan peace conference of Isaaq, Ciise and Samaroon well over a 100 years ago:
"Soomaliyeey Islaam baan nihiyo ubadkii Xaawaad eh.
Ashahaadadii waan qirnaa tii Islaanimo eh.
Ma inkiro Rasuulkiyo Jibriiliyo aayadaha quraanka eh
Hadana waan is layna sidii ubadka Shaydaan eh"
Translation:
"Oh Somalis we are an Islamic people, the descendants of Hawwa (Eve).
We testify the Shahada of Islam.
I do not deny the Messenger, Jibril (Gabriel) and the verses of the Qur'an.
Yet again we manage to slay one another like the spawns of the devil!"
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