Does Diin la'aan Lead to Dhiig la'aan

[Justathought]

I've noticed that with many Somalis who leave diinta there is a lack of loyalty to Somalinimo. I previously thought that the 2 weren't necessarily intertwined and they you could still be a proud Somali but I've come to notice with many of them on and offline they tend to be sellouts who left 1 religion for a new one which is worshipping western history and civilisation.

Surely there is a medium?

Islam is deeply connected to the Somali identity. It was what differentiated between us and the Christian Abyssinians and it's why we aren't not under their boot today (for the most part i.e Somali galbeed). Does leaving Islam lead to leaving Somalinimo?

Let's discuss.

 

[Naissur]

I'm sure they wouldn't feel out of place in the decades preceding the civil war. Somalis have become infested with the new wave of Salafism, and it's no wonder non-Somali Muslims would seem distant. Somalis went from having non-Muslims at the highest levels of government to mindlessly accepting Saudi manufactured version of the religion they had for centuries.

Better question would be on the effects of Salafism on Somalinimo!

 

[Justathought]

I'm sure they wouldn't feel out of place in the decades preceding the civil war. Somalis have become infested with the new wave of Salafism, and it's no wonder non-Somali Muslims would seem distant. Somalis went from having non-Muslims at the highest levels of Government to mindlessly accepting Saudi manufactured version of the religion they had for centuries.

Better question would be on the effects of Salafism on Somalinimo!

They would be out of place lol. Extolling the virtues of another group while shitting on your own has never been a good luck. There was a well known Somali Christian family during colonial times that were proud Somalis and were accepted. I agree with you on Salafism. It's an extreme ideology and extremely problematic. It leaves no room for culture.

 

[Jujuman]

Could you define examples of what constitutes Somalinimo is first
@Justathought

 

[Generalissimo]

Its a fact that there are and has been Somalis who were not muslims/religious but still dedicate their lives and energy for this country. Are you saying that Michael Mariano who was a christian Somali that dedicated his life for an independent Somalia left his Somalinimo?

This form of radical Salafism that has been manufactured in Saudi and imported to Somalia for the last 30 years is a bigger threat to Somalinimo in my opinion. I have cousins who unfortunately adhere to Wahhabism and they say braindead things like "All muslims belong to one Ummah, I'm closer to some dhegacas in the gulf than to my fellow Somali who is not religious".

 

[BestCaseScenario]

There aren't many non-Muslim Somalis to give a decisive answer on this. With that said, my observation about the few I met online and interacted with is that they are more civil and less bigoted than the majority Somalis who would sacrifice their entire ethnicity and country for their clan. Clan bigotry is more corrosive than gaalnimo in my view. At least latter is spiritually corrosive whilst the other is both spiritually and socially corrosive(the clan bigotry).


Personally, a Somali person's faith is a non issue. It is not the first question I ask. If they keep their religious views personal, Somalinimo all the way. I would nominate them to office.

 

[BestCaseScenario]

I'm sure they wouldn't feel out of place in the decades preceding the civil war. Somalis have become infested with the new wave of Salafism, and it's no wonder non-Somali Muslims would seem distant. Somalis went from having non-Muslims at the highest levels of government to mindlessly accepting Saudi manufactured version of the religion they had for centuries.

Better question would be on the effects of Salafism on Somalinimo!

Comrade Naissur, I grant you citizenship. You can even join my family registry in Somalia. My dad did that for some half Italian guy who returned to Somalia back in the days and I am not kidding. That dude went on to finish his education in Somalia and go back to Italy as a Somali citizen for doctorate then returned to teach at the Somali University in Muqdisho. You had to have what they called family folder to register in school in Somalia back then. Similar to birth certificate.

 

[Merchant of Mogadishu]

Deen and Somalinimo go hand in hand in my opinion. They cannot be separated. We are one of the Muslim countries that can say, we are all Sunni Muslims. It is what further binds us together. It is what makes us stronger. Living in Somalia and espousing Somalinimo, whilst not being a Muslim, will only be rejected by the people (and rightly so) as they know well the consequences of corrupt ideologies (such as Atheism) being spread out amongst the masses. We are struggling to handle clan differences, what do you think will happen when people fight over religious differences?

History tells us that violence, bloodshed and chaos shall be the norm across the land.

Islam and Somalinimo is the way forward.

 

[BestCaseScenario]

Deen and Somalinimo go hand in hand in my opinion. They cannot be separated. We are one of the Muslim countries that can say, we are all Sunni Muslims. It is what further binds us together. It is what makes us stronger. Living in Somalia and espousing Somalinimo, whilst not being a Muslim, will only be rejected by the people (and rightly so) as they know well the consequences of corrupt ideologies (such as Atheism) being spread out amongst the masses. We are struggling to handle clan differences, what do you think will happen when people fight over religious differences?

History tells us that violence, bloodshed and chaos shall be the norm across the land.

Islam and Somalinimo is the way forward.

Your last line defines us Somalis though. And Islam is our religion. What is the cause? I would rather take a non Muslim Somali who is patriotic and honest over a Somali Muslim who practices bigotry and clan favoritism. As long as Somalis are emotionally attached to their clans, the argument against non Muslim Somalis is weak. They are a good fit in our society despite their lack of faith. We are not doing any better without them.

 

[Generalissimo]

There aren't many non-Muslim Somalis to give a decisive answer on this. With that said, my observation about the few I met online and interacted with is that they are more civil and less bigoted than the majority Somalis who would sacrifice their entire ethnicity and country for their clan. Clan bigotry is more corrosive than gaalnimo in my view. At least latter is spiritually corrosive whilst the other is both spiritually and socially corrosive(the clan bigotry).


Personally, a Somali person's faith is a non issue. It is not the first question I ask. If they keep their religious views personal, Somalinimo all the way. I would nominate them to office.

Gacanta ayaan ku taagay mudane

 

[Merchant of Mogadishu]

Your last line defines us Somalis though. And Islam is our religion. What is the cause? I would rather take a non Muslim Somali who is patriotic and honest over a Somali Muslim who practices bigotry and clan favoritism. As long as Somalis are emotionally attached to their clans, the argument against non Muslim Somalis is weak. They are a good fit in our society despite their lack of faith. We are not doing any better without them.

Yes, the last line defines us, but it does not define the Somalis who have abandoned Islam.

There are many many many Somalis who adhere to their deen and who are honest and patriotic, I'm sure of it, so there is no need whatsoever to choose between a non Muslim and a Muslim.

You have to understand the long term problem here sxb. These non Muslims, if they decide to one day live their lives and raise their children in Somalia, will not raise their children upon Islam, so the next generation is gone, and so will the next and the next. This will cause unforeseen problems to occur, the degradation of society on a spiritual and societal level, violence will occur and corruption will rule the land.

 

[BestCaseScenario]

Yes, the last line defines us, but it does not define the Somalis who have abandoned Islam.

There are many many many Somalis who adhere to their deen and who are honest and patriotic, I'm sure of it, so there is no need whatsoever to choose between a non Muslim and a Muslim.

You have to understand the long term problem here sxb. These non Muslims, if they decide to one day live their lives and raise their children in Somalia, will not raise their children upon Islam, so the next generation is gone, and so will the next and the next. This will cause unforeseen problems to occur, the degradation of society on a spiritual and societal level, violence will occur and corruption will rule the land.

Bro, the Somali version of gaalnimo is just not that deep. Most of these young men upset with God will be alright in Somalia. Their children will be Muslims swept by the local culture and by their peers. I have no fear of drastic changes introduced into the fabric of our society by few Somalis who were not meant to be Muslims. Mulims who don't practice Islam are more damaging to their society. Asad, Siisi, Suadi Rulers, Al-shabab, Afghanis who rape boys as a culture, just to name few damaging groups and individuals to muslim societies saxib. I have more worries about Somali sell outs to Habashis and to Kenyan governments to a Somali guy fighting his personal demons.

We have to consider also that Faith is not something people can have unless granted to them by God. You already know this by observing how Faith goes up and down based on deeds in the hearts of those who LOVE God. It weakens and gets strong depending on someone's acts. And that shows how it is not guaranteed to anyone that they will remain believers unless they ware active in working to preserve their faith by being truthful to its ideals. I wouldn't' fault anyone to have no faith in God. If faith is a gift, which in my view is a gift from God, we ought to pray for our kinsmen and hope for them to find peace with their maker. We should welcome them instead of showing animosity and deepen their loss.

My condition on them are patriotism and Somali interests. If they are for both, their lack of faith is going to be their problem. If they aren't actively seeking to alter the Somali identity and culture, they should be welcome. They are our kinsmen.



I have bigger beef with Somali Muslims than I have with these handful young men who love to drink and party, and who most of them are part time gaalo. They aren't serious.

 

[MrKnowles]

Somalis look the same and have the same religion, and yet they have been fighting eachother for decades.

Meanwhile plurastic countries who have a lot more tribes than us and have different religions like Ethiopia for example are a lot more peaceful as their citizens are used to other people being different.

Somalis unfortunately are all the same and now they are fighting to become identical (everyone has to be a salafi/ or only my clan can live here).

I don’t think atheist Somalis have lost touch with their somalinimo it’s more that Salafi Islam is incompatible with secularism.

 

[Haji]

Somalis look the same and have the same religion, and yet they have been fighting eachother for decades.

Meanwhile plurastic countries who have a lot more tribes than us and have different religions like Ethiopia for example are a lot more peaceful as their citizens are used to other people being different.

Somalis unfortunately are all the same and now they are fighting to become identical (everyone has to be a salafi/ or only my clan can live here).

I don’t think atheist Somalis have lost touch with their somalinimo it’s more that Salafi Islam is incompatible with secularism.

This is some real shit, but I don't think Ethiopia is a good example though. The tigray are opressing other tribes and don't allow religious expression.

If you look at Canada, U.K, India, and even Japan, then yeah. Somalis supposedly share everything, but still can't get along. It shows you it doesn't matter how different you are, if everyone wants peace you can get it.

 

[BestCaseScenario]

Somalis look the same and have the same religion, and yet they have been fighting eachother for decades.

Meanwhile plurastic countries who have a lot more tribes than us and have different religions like Ethiopia for example are a lot more peaceful as their citizens are used to other people being different.

Somalis unfortunately are all the same and now they are fighting to become identical (everyone has to be a salafi/ or only my clan can live here).

I don’t think atheist Somalis have lost touch with their somalinimo it’s more that Salafi Islam is incompatible with secularism.

Our problem is not lack of diversity. It the nomadic culture that values decentralization and sub clan level independence that went contrary to the new form of governance we wanted to adapt which required Individuality and Country as vehicles for modern society. Somalis haven't fully learned to go beyond their clan loyalty and to place greater value on Country and on Somali Ethnicity/nationality. That is why it is hard to convince even kids who can't speak English to give up on their savage ways handed to them by their parents. Check this forum and see how useless and uncultured kids who can't speak a lick of Somali promote tribalism over nationality and Country.

I think Our homogeneity is an asset and it helped us survive in the last 26 years. We would be wiped out by now if stronger and more united non Somali ethnicities lived with us in Somalia. They would have taken advantage of our weaknesses and division more than Ethiopia and Kenya did already.

Also, Ethiopia is a failed state supported by the International community. It can collapse any day. Kenya is much more solid democratically speaking. They are a good example of people who accepted co-existence and with democratic norms that aren't the best but works to keep their country together.


Somalis are better positioned to succeed if they make positive use of their homogeneity. We are prized community who speak an old language and are descendants of an old culture and tradition. Our presence now and into the future as distinct society is good for the world.


PS: The reason few non muslim Somalis won't harm our country is exactly due to our homogeneity. They will fit right in without issues.

 

[baradhe]

Most somalis a century ago never prayed , most of them died on this way they were non prayers and the constant stools of there camels made them unable to pray , also they were lazy even to pray so yeah

 

[Merchant of Mogadishu]

Bro, the Somali version of gaalnimo is just not that deep. Most of these young men upset with God will be alright in Somalia. Their children will be Muslims swept by the local culture and by their peers. I have no fear of drastic changes introduced into the fabric of our society by few Somalis who were not meant to be Muslims. Mulims who don't practice Islam are more damaging to their society. Asad, Siisi, Suadi Rulers, Al-shabab, Afghanis who rape boys as a culture, just to name few damaging groups and individuals to muslim societies saxib. I have more worries about Somali sell outs to Habashis and to Kenyan governments to a Somali guy fighting his personal demons.

We have to consider also that Faith is not something people can have unless granted to them by God. You already know this by observing how Faith goes up and down based on deeds in the hearts of those who LOVE God. It weakens and gets strong depending on someone's acts. And that shows how it is not guaranteed to anyone that they will remain believers unless they ware active in working to preserve their faith by being truthful to its ideals. I wouldn't' fault anyone to have no faith in God. If faith is a gift, which in my view is a gift from God, we ought to pray for our kinsmen and hope for them to find peace with their maker. We should welcome them instead of showing animosity and deepen their loss.

My condition on them are patriotism and Somali interests. If they are for both, their lack of faith is going to be their problem. If they aren't actively seeking to alter the Somali identity and culture, they should be welcome. They are our kinsmen.



I have bigger beef with Somali Muslims than I have with these handful young men who love to drink and party, and who most of them are part time gaalo. They aren't serious.

I agree with the second paragraph 100%. Imaan is something that goes up and down in someone's lifetime and some unfortunately have so little imaan, that they leave Islam. These people cannot be abandoned, they must be helped and not shunned. Because if they become shunned, they will only carry on being gaalo and so will their children. A terrible thing indeed.

However you have to look at the other side too. You may think some of these gaalo aren't serious but with the interactions that I have had with them (albeit all online and all on SomaliSpot) they seem to be very adamant and firm on their gaalonimo. Do you think these people will be welcomed with open arms in Somalia. Not everyone is as open minded as you are. I fear that only terrible violence and loss of life will come out of this. And don't forget the propoganda tool those barbarians, Al Shabaab will use against us for harbouring non Muslims. It will be a gold mine for them and their ranks could swell.

I suppose if they keep their gaalonimo private and they AT LEAST try to open their hearts to the light of Allah, and raise their children on the deen, then it could work out, but for now, I have a sense of doubt in me.

 

[BestCaseScenario]

Most somalis a century ago never prayed , most of them died on this way they were non prayers and the constant stools of there camels made them unable to pray , also they were lazy even to pray so yeah

Still died as Muslims. The affirmation of the word of Monotheism accounts for one's Islam. They may have died not praying regularly, but they also waged Holy war on the Habashis to defend their honor, religion and lands when called upon. Niman rag ah ayay ahaayeen saxib. They showed their true allegiance when it mattered.

 

[BestCaseScenario]

I agree with the second paragraph 100%. Imaan is something that goes up and down in someone's lifetime and some unfortunately have so little imaan, that they leave Islam. These people cannot be abandoned, they must be helped and not shunned. Because if they become shunned, they will only carry on being gaalo and so will their children. A terrible thing indeed.

However you have to look at the other side too. You may think some of these gaalo aren't serious but with the interactions that I have had with them (albeit all online and all on SomaliSpot) they seem to be very adamant and firm on their gaalonimo. Do you think these people will be welcomed with open arms in Somalia. Not everyone is as open minded as you are. I fear that only terrible violence and loss of life will come out of this. And don't forget the propoganda tool those barbarians, Al Shabaab will use against us for harbouring non Muslims. It will be a gold mine for them and their ranks could swell.

I suppose if they keep their gaalonimo private and they AT LEAST try to open their hearts to the light of Allah, and raise their children on the deen, then it could work out, but for now, I have a sense of doubt in me.

Bro, I do agree with your sentiments. As long as they aren't actively seeking to change their relatives and undermining their society, they are like everybody else to me and to God is their destiny. I wouldn't judge them any different and would extend the hand of brotherhood to them for a greater cause when they represent good quality as individuals. Also, this not at crisis level as there are not many atheist Somalis who present a challenge in numbers to our Somali values. That will never happen. Majority of Somalis are back home.

Just as Muslims are required to follow the laws of the lands they live in and to respect other majorities in non-muslim societies, same laws will apply in Somalia and to Somalia's interests: > Maintaining the culture and Country as one. Anyone willing to be a partner in that, they should get a role in my view.

These are my personal views. I generally do not link default goodness/badness to someone because of their faith or lack of it and people have to demonstrate they are good and trust worthy vise versa. I think good of people in general by default. And I do understand how some atheist Somalis online demonstrate hostility towards Somalis for their religion, but they aren't that many. I find these kind of Somalis to be ignorant of Islam anyway with sub bar personal quality. I wouldn't take them seriously.

 

[SomaliWadaniSoldier]

I dont consider apostates as Somalis. They are xabashis.