Could the 4% West African I score on 23AndMe be due to the 'Bantu migration'? (Not Somali, sorry!)

[Ayen224]

Hi @Nilotic , sorry to drag you back into this thread lol. But it seems you're also South Sudanese, so I figured you'd be the perfect person to discuss this with. I was just wondering if you happen to have any knowledge on when the Nilotic groups of South Sudan are believed to have diverged from each other? If such a theory even exists. I was initially just thinking of one large group, with parties of people suddenly splitting off into their own smaller groups, all at once, and subsequently creating the different ethnic groups we see today. But that is actually quite silly now that I think of it. I guess it's more likely that it was instead fragmented and happened over a prolonged period of time.
I.e., Only Group 1 existed initially. A group from then split from that whole, making Group 2. A group then later split off from Group 2, making Group 3. A second group then split off from Group 1, making Group 4, etc.

Also, so I'm Acholi, and according to Wikipedia, my ethnic group got our name from being referred to as Shooli, by the 'Arabic-speaking traders from the north'. If what is meant by that, is that the word derives from Arabic or Arabs in any way, I'm quite doubtful.

I know that 'Chol' is one of the many words/names that seems to exist across various Nilotic groups in South Sudan, if not all. So to think it came from Arabs rather than being native to us is pretty curious. I'm not sure what it means in your language, but for us it means black. So usually we use it quite literally when referring to things that are black/dark, or even for example when referring to someone who's malicious or ill-intended, to say that they have a 'black heart' for example. We also use it to refer to other black people. And then I know we also have the female name, 'Achola'. Although I've only ever met one girl with that name thus far, so it appears it may not be very popular. But if I'm not mistaken, it's given to girls who are born around a time of hardship or tragedy, usually around the death of a family member I believe.

And then, just based off what I know about our naming conventions, I imagine the male equivalent would be 'Ochola'. Anyway, all that rambling to say that it means anything that is quite literally dark/black in colour, or is used to refer to tragedies, malice, anything that is 'dark' in that figurative sense. I'm not sure how much you know of the etymology of that word, in your language, but do you believe it may have indeed come from the Arabs? The only thing I can think is that it potentially came from 'Kohl', which itself is black, so perhaps it was a term used to refer to us by the Arabs in that way? Which now, as I type this, it actually seems pretty plausible that it may've derived from that, lol. What do you think?

 

[Nilotic]

Hi @Nilotic , sorry to drag you back into this thread lol. But it seems you're also South Sudanese, so I figured you'd be the perfect person to discuss this with. I was just wondering if you happen to have any knowledge on when the Nilotic groups of South Sudan are believed to have diverged from each other? If such a theory even exists. I was initially just thinking of one large group, with parties of people suddenly splitting off into their own smaller groups, all at once, and subsequently creating the different ethnic groups we see today. But that is actually quite silly now that I think of it. I guess it's more likely that it was instead fragmented and happened over a prolonged period of time.
I.e., Only Group 1 existed initially. A group from then split from that whole, making Group 2. A group then later split off from Group 2, making Group 3. A second group then split off from Group 1, making Group 4, etc.

Also, so I'm Acholi, and according to Wikipedia, my ethnic group got our name from being referred to as Shooli, by the 'Arabic-speaking traders from the north'. If what is meant by that, is that the word derives from Arabic or Arabs in any way, I'm quite doubtful.

I know that 'Chol' is one of the many words/names that seems to exist across various Nilotic groups in South Sudan, if not all. So to think it came from Arabs rather than being native to us is pretty curious. I'm not sure what it means in your language, but for us it means black. So usually we use it quite literally when referring to things that are black/dark, or even for example when referring to someone who's malicious or ill-intended, to say that they have a 'black heart' for example. We also use it to refer to other black people. And then I know we also have the female name, 'Achola'. Although I've only ever met one girl with that name thus far, so it appears it may not be very popular. But if I'm not mistaken, it's given to girls who are born around a time of hardship or tragedy, usually around the death of a family member I believe.

And then, just based off what I know about our naming conventions, I imagine the male equivalent would be 'Ochola'. Anyway, all that rambling to say that it means anything that is quite literally dark/black in colour, or is used to refer to tragedies, malice, anything that is 'dark' in that figurative sense. I'm not sure how much you know of the etymology of that word, in your language, but do you believe it may have indeed come from the Arabs? The only thing I can think is that it potentially came from 'Kohl', which itself is black, so perhaps it was a term used to refer to us by the Arabs in that way? Which now, as I type this, it actually seems pretty plausible that it may've derived from that, lol. What do you think?

Hi, sis

I unfortunately don't have any concrete sources on the divergence of our ethnic groups, however, it must have been relatively recent due to the fact that we don't seem to have diverged too significantly in terms of language and customs.

Our homeland is the Gezira:

And it seems that most of our Nilotic groups left the area around one thousand years ago -- with the Dinka being the last to leave in the 13th and 15th Centuries. The Maa groups (Maasai/Samburu) likely left a little earlier.

As I understand it, the Acholi (a Luo sub-group) broke off away from the Anyuak only very recently -- literally only centuries ago; and the Anyuak and Shilluk broke away from the other Luo groups in Bahr El Ghazal around the 14th Century and moved as one ethnic group to Upper State, before the Anyuak themselves left for Jonglei and Ethiopia.

According to some Dinka elders, all (or most Nilotes) were originally Luo; and there may be some truth to this due to the fact that virtually every Nilotic group in Greater Sudan and Uganda refer to themselves as Luo.

I don't think that the Arabs are responsible for the name Acholi; it's our word. Chol means black and is given as a male name; and Achol also means black, but in the female form; and just like in your section... it's given to a child born after a sibling has passed. Perhaps you may have had a female ancestor (likely a Luo Princess) that left the Anyuak with (her followers) and gave her name to the section.

I don't know the origins of the Maa groups and some of the Nilotic tribes in Eastern and Central Equatoria... but we (Dinka, Nuer, Luo groups) were all one ethnic group until very recently. Most Dinka and Nuer don't accept being called Luo, but there are elders that are telling us now that this is who we originally were.

Nilotic languages (Nuer, Luo and Kalenjin) are extremely close in their base; I've interacted with Kalenjin, Anyuak and Nuer and Dinka seems to a bit of an outlier, but I can understand some of the words they use.

Forgive me, but until recently I thought the Acholi had mixed extensively with non-Nilotic Ugandans, but your genetic results are bonafide Nilotic.

Apologies for the wall of text

 

[mizuu67]

Hi @Nilotic , sorry to drag you back into this thread lol. But it seems you're also South Sudanese, so I figured you'd be the perfect person to discuss this with. I was just wondering if you happen to have any knowledge on when the Nilotic groups of South Sudan are believed to have diverged from each other? If such a theory even exists. I was initially just thinking of one large group, with parties of people suddenly splitting off into their own smaller groups, all at once, and subsequently creating the different ethnic groups we see today. But that is actually quite silly now that I think of it. I guess it's more likely that it was instead fragmented and happened over a prolonged period of time.
I.e., Only Group 1 existed initially. A group from then split from that whole, making Group 2. A group then later split off from Group 2, making Group 3. A second group then split off from Group 1, making Group 4, etc.

Also, so I'm Acholi, and according to Wikipedia, my ethnic group got our name from being referred to as Shooli, by the 'Arabic-speaking traders from the north'. If what is meant by that, is that the word derives from Arabic or Arabs in any way, I'm quite doubtful.

I know that 'Chol' is one of the many words/names that seems to exist across various Nilotic groups in South Sudan, if not all. So to think it came from Arabs rather than being native to us is pretty curious. I'm not sure what it means in your language, but for us it means black. So usually we use it quite literally when referring to things that are black/dark, or even for example when referring to someone who's malicious or ill-intended, to say that they have a 'black heart' for example. We also use it to refer to other black people. And then I know we also have the female name, 'Achola'. Although I've only ever met one girl with that name thus far, so it appears it may not be very popular. But if I'm not mistaken, it's given to girls who are born around a time of hardship or tragedy, usually around the death of a family member I believe.

And then, just based off what I know about our naming conventions, I imagine the male equivalent would be 'Ochola'. Anyway, all that rambling to say that it means anything that is quite literally dark/black in colour, or is used to refer to tragedies, malice, anything that is 'dark' in that figurative sense. I'm not sure how much you know of the etymology of that word, in your language, but do you believe it may have indeed come from the Arabs? The only thing I can think is that it potentially came from 'Kohl', which itself is black, so perhaps it was a term used to refer to us by the Arabs in that way? Which now, as I type this, it actually seems pretty plausible that it may've derived from that, lol. What do you think?

Proto western nilotte sbefore sperating into luo, Dinka-Nuer and Burun lived in what is now the modern Blue nile state of northern Sudan. (source is "culture and history in the southern sudan archeology, linguistics and ethnohistory")

 

[mizuu67]

There were small groups of Bantus in southern acholi and lango land (can tell by place names/toponyms) before the luo arrived and assimilated them. some Bantu migrants continued to move north into the established acholi/lango areas and assimilate into their society. The king of Bunyoro had good relations with Acholi and would often travel all the way to Nimule in south sudan. I saw genetic article conducted on Ugandan peoples that said that Central north ugandans have some Bantu ancestry in them (forgot the article). you got some Bantu from Acholi with bantu ancestry.

 

[niggaibnh]

Hi @Nilotic , sorry to drag you back into this thread lol. But it seems you're also South Sudanese, so I figured you'd be the perfect person to discuss this with. I was just wondering if you happen to have any knowledge on when the Nilotic groups of South Sudan are believed to have diverged from each other? If such a theory even exists. I was initially just thinking of one large group, with parties of people suddenly splitting off into their own smaller groups, all at once, and subsequently creating the different ethnic groups we see today. But that is actually quite silly now that I think of it. I guess it's more likely that it was instead fragmented and happened over a prolonged period of time.
I.e., Only Group 1 existed initially. A group from then split from that whole, making Group 2. A group then later split off from Group 2, making Group 3. A second group then split off from Group 1, making Group 4, etc.

Also, so I'm Acholi, and according to Wikipedia, my ethnic group got our name from being referred to as Shooli, by the 'Arabic-speaking traders from the north'. If what is meant by that, is that the word derives from Arabic or Arabs in any way, I'm quite doubtful.

I know that 'Chol' is one of the many words/names that seems to exist across various Nilotic groups in South Sudan, if not all. So to think it came from Arabs rather than being native to us is pretty curious. I'm not sure what it means in your language, but for us it means black. So usually we use it quite literally when referring to things that are black/dark, or even for example when referring to someone who's malicious or ill-intended, to say that they have a 'black heart' for example. We also use it to refer to other black people. And then I know we also have the female name, 'Achola'. Although I've only ever met one girl with that name thus far, so it appears it may not be very popular. But if I'm not mistaken, it's given to girls who are born around a time of hardship or tragedy, usually around the death of a family member I believe.

And then, just based off what I know about our naming conventions, I imagine the male equivalent would be 'Ochola'. Anyway, all that rambling to say that it means anything that is quite literally dark/black in colour, or is used to refer to tragedies, malice, anything that is 'dark' in that figurative sense. I'm not sure how much you know of the etymology of that word, in your language, but do you believe it may have indeed come from the Arabs? The only thing I can think is that it potentially came from 'Kohl', which itself is black, so perhaps it was a term used to refer to us by the Arabs in that way? Which now, as I type this, it actually seems pretty plausible that it may've derived from that, lol. What do you think?

@Ayen224 @Nilotic family talk

Inshallah we get more South Sudanese users

 

[mizuu67]

Thank you! Lol, this is quite validating. So even given phenotypical differences, I don't deviate much at all from say a Dinka or Nuer person genetically, is something I've gathered. That's good to know.

And I just had two quick questions if you don't mind. As far as the distinctly tall stature that people typically imagine with Nilotic people, do you think 'Proto-Nilotes' had this same feature? Or was it likely something that just happened to develop in specific groups (Dinka, Nuer, Maasai, etc.) after there was already a divergence? Like due to pastoralism and the subsequent dairy-rich diets and whatnot.

And my second one, would it be correct to say that we pretty much originated where we reside even now? Maybe just migrating slightly southward?

Thanks!

Much of South sudan and Uganda was occupied by Central sudanic peoples and the Luos and other nilotes absorbed many of them (lots of central sudanic lineages in the acholi tribe). Maybe central Sudanics are naturally shorter than Nilotes? And the fact that many Southern Luos became more agricultural than pastoral probbaly played a role in them being shorter than more "pure" nilotes.

 

[Ayen224]

Hi, sis

I unfortunately don't have any concrete sources on the divergence of our ethnic groups, however, it must have been relatively recent due to the fact that we don't seem to have diverged too significantly in terms of language and customs.

Our homeland is the Gezira:

View attachment 318237

And it seems that most of our Nilotic groups left the area around one thousand years ago -- with the Dinka being the last to leave in the 13th and 15th Centuries. The Maa groups (Maasai/Samburu) likely left a little earlier.

As I understand it, the Acholi (a Luo sub-group) broke off away from the Anyuak only very recently -- literally only centuries ago; and the Anyuak and Shilluk broke away from the other Luo groups in Bahr El Ghazal around the 14th Century and moved as one ethnic group to Upper State, before the Anyuak themselves left for Jonglei and Ethiopia.

According to some Dinka elders, all (or most Nilotes) were originally Luo; and there may be some truth to this due to the fact that virtually every Nilotic group in Greater Sudan and Uganda refer to themselves as Luo.

I don't think that the Arabs are responsible for the name Acholi; it's our word. Chol means black and is given as a male name; and Achol also means black, but in the female form; and just like in your section... it's given to a child born after a sibling has passed. Perhaps you may have had a female ancestor (likely a Luo Princess) that left the Anyuak with (her followers) and gave her name to the section.

I don't know the origins of the Maa groups and some of the Nilotic tribes in Eastern and Central Equatoria... but we (Dinka, Nuer, Luo groups) were all one ethnic group until very recently. Most Dinka and Nuer don't accept being called Luo, but there are elders that are telling us now that this is who we originally were.

Nilotic languages (Nuer, Luo and Kalenjin) are extremely close in their base; I've interacted with Kalenjin, Anyuak and Nuer and Dinka seems to a bit of an outlier, but I can understand some of the words they use.

Forgive me, but until recently I thought the Acholi had mixed extensively with non-Nilotic Ugandans, but your genetic results are bonafide Nilotic.

Apologies for the wall of text

Good point. It couldn't have been too far back at all considering that. There really are so many similar words, it's insane lol. I remember once hearing this Anuak girl I know, speaking Anuak to her family on her Instagram story, I was like, "Uhm... Why is she speaking Acholi?"

If I remember correctly, I think she had asked "What's your name?", to one of her little cousins, trying to test his understanding of Anuak, and it was literally the exact same phrase we say in Acholi, just with slightly different inflections. I also remember in high school, rattling off words in our respective languages, with my Dinka friends, to see how many were similar. There were so so many lol.

And I have also heard that before too, about us having been a part of the Anuak originally. And given how we seem to have entire phrases that are mutually intelligible, it does seem super likely.

And that's so interesting that you say that - about some Dinka elders believing that, because I had actually always thought that it was the other way around. I figured the Dinka were the closest to our most recent common ancestors, both genetically and linguistically. But I think the former may still be accurate, since from what I've seen, the Dinka always seem to be the proxy used for Nilotic, and perhaps the 'purest' Nilotes so to speak.

If I'm being honest, I had actually thought the same as you as far as Acholi people I figured we were admixed to hell, but it seems not. Perhaps it helps that my family is from South Sudan rather than Uganda. Although you'd think that that's fairly inconsequential, considering the borders between the two countries were drawn arbitrarily (at least I believe).

As far as the Luo Princess theory, I wish I could know lol. But I do know for certain that somewhere along my mother's paternal line, someone founded Pajok, my mother's community (town?) in Magwi County, Eastern Equatoria. And the men from that line have been the chiefs of the area since. I actually even have a photo (alleged photo, I'll say) of my Great-great-grandfather, from my mother's side. Except, instead of being her father's father's father, it's her father's mother's father. I believe he was a chief of some other clan or something himself.

And okay, I'm glad you think that, that affirms my earliest position. Cause yeah I wasn't quite buying the idea that Arabs gave us that word, surely not. Especially considering how it's so universal, and so intrinsic across all of our different languages.

And I don't know much about Sudan honestly, so I'm only now learning about this Gezira region, but that is so interesting. I knew that the general consensus was that we came from a fair ways further up north, but I didn't imagine it was that further up lol. Then again, I guess for you guys, that isn't much further up, meanwhile, we border Uganda, so that may as well be a billion miles away lmao. Is this something that is shared in your oral history? Because I think any such knowledge/memory is long forgotten in Acholi people.

And you don't need to apologise, I think I actually do now, with my mountain of text. But it's just very fascinating history that I don't think we really ever discuss as a collective, so it's really interesting to share information.

 

[Ayen224]

There were small groups of Bantus in southern acholi and lango land (can tell by place names/toponyms) before the luo arrived and assimilated them. some Bantu migrants continued to move north into the established acholi/lango areas and assimilate into their society. The king of Bunyoro had good relations with Acholi and would often travel all the way to Nimule in south sudan. I saw genetic article conducted on Ugandan peoples that said that Central north ugandans have some Bantu ancestry in them (forgot the article). you got some Bantu from Acholi with bantu ancestry.

LMFAO, I forget that you all seem to know about everything on this forum lol. Cause why am I seeing 'Nimule', and I used to hear that uttered during every other conversation that my mum would have to relatives back home lol. Thank you so much, this is great information. And it's so funny that you say that about the Bunyoro, because it's some family lore amongst some of my uncles and some other relatives, that one of my Great(x4 or something)-grandmothers was actually Bunyoro. Although I don't quite believe it since I imagine it would have been more evident in my genetic results. But who knows, I could be wrong. Probably definitely true for some other family though.

 

[mizuu67]

I appreciate your knowledge but there are holes in your take:

-The study is focused on Ugandan Acholi while she's South Sudanese so her remaining West african admixture being similar is an assumption not a fact. You can see from the bantu purple component than the admixture is still recent and ongoing since its not homogeneous within the Ugandan Acholis so those in South Sudan must have way less.

- In my second comment I clearly mentioned that the most recent West African admixture is more likely to be ubangian than bantu since the former literally live in South Sudan meanwhile no bantu ever set a foot in SSudan as far as I know

View attachment 317629
View attachment 317630

They even lived enough in contact with Central Sudanic people(preceded Nilotes in South Sudan) to have their language influenced by them so both Ubangians and Central Sudanic are likely to have mediated WA admixture to Nilotes like Acholis before they even went to Uganda

View attachment 317632
View attachment 317637

-The study made the mistake of not including an ubangian group(Azande,Mundu, Banda...) so obviously bantu ancestry it will appears as bantu but it doesn't mean that most of it is actually bantu.
It's the same problem with your model, we don't have ubangian samples so it appears as Bantu but it's actually not bantu for the most part, I know that since I have ubangian ancestry and can model myself with a good fit only using bantu yet it's misleading. Same issue with 23andMe.

-There is another genetic study named "Genetic structure correlates with ethnolinguistic diversity in eastern and southern Africa" where Ugandan Acholis and Lugbara(Central Sudanic) were analyzed and besides their Nilo ancestry (pink), they do have Pygmy admixture(sky blue) like you've shown, Bantu-like admix(again probably Ubangian) and West African admixture solely shown as Igbo-like(blue) and Senegambian-like(green). Many of them have the Igbo-like , Senegambian-like but lack any bantu-like dna so interpreting this West African dna as Bantu is wrong.Noice how the red bantu-like admixture isn't homogenous compared to the remaining West African which shows that this non bantu-like WA admixture has been stabilized so is not recent.
View attachment 317635


In conclusion, we now know that @Ayen224 like her fellow South Sudanese have ancient West African ancestry dating back to the Green Sahara, some of them probably retaining more or it(Central Sudanic, Acholis...). Besides this ancient admixture, the most recent West African admixture they received is Ubangian-like and was either meditated directly or indirectly by Ubangian admixed Central Sudanic. Bantu speakers aren't found in northern Uganda let alone South Sudan therefore only Ugandan Nilo-Saharans or South Sudanese with recent ancestors from Uganda can have proper Bantu admixture, others simply have Sahelian and Ubangian admixture which can appear as Bantu-like due to a lack of samples(or consideration) towards Ubangian speakers.

There was a bantu language spoken in south sudan and there are bantu languages found near the sudanese border.

 

[SuperBantuWeyne]

Much of South sudan and Uganda was occupied by Central sudanic peoples and the Luos and other nilotes absorbed many of them (lots of central sudanic lineages in the acholi tribe). Maybe central Sudanics are naturally shorter than Nilotes? And the fact that many Southern Luos became more agricultural than pastoral probbaly played a role in them being shorter than more "pure" nilotes.

Central Sudanic are usually shorter surely because they assimilated previous hunter-gatherers(pygmy, omotic-like..) and mixed with Niger-Congo speakers (Ubangian, Bantu further south..) as discussed earlier on this thread . I assume they'd be taller without these admixtures

 

[Ayen224]

Much of South sudan and Uganda was occupied by Central sudanic peoples and the Luos and other nilotes absorbed many of them (lots of central sudanic lineages in the acholi tribe). Maybe central Sudanics are naturally shorter than Nilotes? And the fact that many Southern Luos became more agricultural than pastoral probbaly played a role in them being shorter than more "pure" nilotes.

This is what I've gathered too. We're definitely more agricultural than pastoral, so I do imagine this played a part in our unfortunate heights.

 

[SuperBantuWeyne]

There was a bantu language spoken in south sudan and there are bantu languages found near the sudanese border.

Thanks that's what I was looking for. So few Bantu speakers lived on the southern tip of modern South Sudan. Some likely fled southward Central Sudanic, Ubangian and Nilotic expansions while those remaining were assimilated.

 

[Ayen224]

@Ayen224 @Nilotic family talk

Inshallah we get more South Sudanese users

'Family talk'

And nah, definitely not haha. This is a Somali space, I think it's only right that it remains that way. I only posted here because every other platform is useless if you're trying to discuss African genetics and populations lol. On the contrary, the users here are incredibly knowledgeable and thorough when it comes to it.

 

[MisterWalaal]

'Family talk'

And nah, definitely not haha. This is a Somali space, I think it's only right that it remains that way. I only posted here because every other platform is useless if you're trying to discuss African genetics and populations lol. On the contrary, the users here are incredibly knowledgeable and thorough when it comes to it.

Hi@Ayen224 I would suggest that you follow your fellow South Sudanese Acholi sister based in Australia called IRENE AYAA. I was doing a random Facebook search and found lots of articles and engagements in her spaces across social media with other Nilotic speakers. There was a lot of info shared across. I think you will find most of the info you need in one space. I am surprised you find it strange that there are common words in an ethnicity which your people broke off fairly recently. I gather you are just starting to learn about your ancestry and history. That's good enough but for Africans who came off the continent recently and have known relatives back home this shouldn't be hard. I really enjoyed the thread as I am fascinated by our Nilotic cousins but I think it would be more profound to engage from a point of more knowledge about your people. You would then be a serious resource on matters SS and help us iron out any biases or misinformation.
@Nilotic seems to know quite a lot about S Sudan and is an asset when he discusses the same.
PS.
I am more inclined to agree with @SuperBantuWeyne theory of the how Bantu appeared in her ancestry through a mediating Ubangian origin. There are lots of this Central Sudanians and Azande all over Sudan and in close proximity with OP's people.
On the other hand, she also says she has a (supposedly) Bunyoro great grandma, according to family stories, which would give a 12.5% Bantu ancestry. If the said great grandma was mixed with Alur that would be around 6% as Alur are genetically same as Acholi but with a.bit of Bantu. This would more support @alchemist answer. In short the truth can only come from her and it can be as easily as a phonecall with an aunt of hers then it would settle this debate once and for all and help the modelers perfect their craft.

 

[Ayen224]

Haha

Hi@Ayen224 I would suggest that you follow your fellow South Sudanese Acholi sister based in Australia called IRENE AYAA. I was doing a random Facebook search and found lots of articles and engagements in her spaces across social media with other Nilotic speakers. There was a lot of info shared across. I think you will find most of the info you need in one space. I am surprised you find it strange that there are common words in an ethnicity which your people broke off fairly recently. I gather you are just starting to learn about your ancestry and history. That's good enough but for Africans who came off the continent recently and have known relatives back home this shouldn't be hard. I really enjoyed the thread as I am fascinated by our Nilotic cousins but I think it would be more profound to engage from a point of more knowledge about your people. You would then be a serious resource on matters SS and help us iron out any biases or misinformation.
@Nilotic seems to know quite a lot about S Sudan and is an asset when he discusses the same.
PS.
I am more inclined to agree with @SuperBantuWeyne theory of the how Bantu appeared in her ancestry through a mediating Ubangian origin. There are lots of this Central Sudanians and Azande all over Sudan and in close proximity with OP's people.
On the other hand, she also says she has a (supposedly) Bunyoro great grandma, according to family stories, which would give a 12.5% Bantu ancestry. If the said great grandma was mixed with Alur that would be around 6% as Alur are genetically same as Acholi but with a.bit of Bantu. This would more support @alchemist answer. In short the truth can only come from her and it can be as easily as a phonecall with an aunt of hers then it would settle this debate once and for all and help the modelers perfect their craft.

Haha thank you for all that, and I’m sure I’ve come across her page before here and there. I think I’m more fascinated than anything, rather than suprised. I’m pretty sure Anuak people live in the Upper Nile area as well as parts of Ethiopia. So I don’t think Acholi people as a whole really have any explicit knowledge about them specifically, but we’re of course aware of the greater Luo community.

I could be wrong but I don’t think we’ve really had much ‘recent’ (and by recent I mean in recent/living memory of our community) contact with any of the tribes outside of our immediate Eastern Equatoria vicinity, and those who border the ‘Acholiland’ parts of Northern Uganda. I think we’re mostly familiar with other Luo groups in the Eastern Equatoria/Northern Uganda region and groups like the Madi. My grandfather from my mother’s side married like 9 women or so, and one of them happened to be Madi. I don’t know if there was any other diversity outside of that, but yeah. And so my step-grandmother is Madi, so plenty of my uncles and aunties are Madi. But part of marrying and having kids with my grandfather was her pretty much totally adopting Acholi culture, and so of course my uncles and aunts too, it’s all they’ve ever known. There’s plenty of inter-marriage between us. But there’s no one Madi in my own direct line from either of my parents, that they know of.

And as far as the potential Bunyoro great⁴ grandmother, I don’t really buy it. I have no reason to. My mother has mostly taken the position of ‘I don’t know’, and for my uncles it still seems pretty speculative too. I don’t believe there’s anyone alive today in my family that could definitively answer that question. And as far as the Anuak thing, I didn’t even know about them until some years ago. I think I asked my mum once if she had any knowledge of us having been a group that broke off from them, however many centuries ago, she said she’s never heard of that. I think that kinda sums up her position on all of this stuff mostly. She doesn’t know about us, both her direct ancestors, as well as us as Acholi people, ever being anything else. But I’m sure she acknowledges that given the existence of many other Luo groups, there was a common source.

I don’t think we’re really as connected or knowledgeable on each other as one might think. I think there’s a disconnect for the most part between Equatoria and the Northern states/areas, and then in general, people mostly know about the ethnic groups they’ve actually had extensive contact with. I remember one of my friends in the 11th grade actually telling me she didn’t even know Equatorians existed until she met me. And I didn’t really know much about Dinka people back then either. I just knew we shared a country, and some of our names seemed similar. I gathered that we probably shared ancestry in the distant past, but I didn’t give it much thought past that. But all this is just my experience and what I’ve observed, anyway.

 

[CABDULWALI XASAN.]

Bruh how the hell u know all of this ?

Fr I'm asking my self where the hell does someone aquire such knowledge

 

[mizuu67]

Haha

Haha thank you for all that, and I’m sure I’ve come across her page before here and there. I think I’m more fascinated than anything, rather than suprised. I’m pretty sure Anuak people live in the Upper Nile area as well as parts of Ethiopia. So I don’t think Acholi people as a whole really have any explicit knowledge about them specifically, but we’re of course aware of the greater Luo community.

I could be wrong but I don’t think we’ve really had much ‘recent’ (and by recent I mean in recent/living memory of our community) contact with any of the tribes outside of our immediate Eastern Equatoria vicinity, and those who border the ‘Acholiland’ parts of Northern Uganda. I think we’re mostly familiar with other Luo groups in the Eastern Equatoria/Northern Uganda region and groups like the Madi. My grandfather from my mother’s side married like 9 women or so, and one of them happened to be Madi. I don’t know if there was any other diversity outside of that, but yeah. And so my step-grandmother is Madi, so plenty of my uncles and aunties are Madi. But part of marrying and having kids with my grandfather was her pretty much totally adopting Acholi culture, and so of course my uncles and aunts too, it’s all they’ve ever known. There’s plenty of inter-marriage between us. But there’s no one Madi in my own direct line from either of my parents, that they know of.

And as far as the potential Bunyoro great⁴ grandmother, I don’t really buy it. I have no reason to. My mother has mostly taken the position of ‘I don’t know’, and for my uncles it still seems pretty speculative too. I don’t believe there’s anyone alive today in my family that could definitively answer that question. And as far as the Anuak thing, I didn’t even know about them until some years ago. I think I asked my mum once if she had any knowledge of us having been a group that broke off from them, however many centuries ago, she said she’s never heard of that. I think that kinda sums up her position on all of this stuff mostly. She doesn’t know about us, both her direct ancestors, as well as us as Acholi people, ever being anything else. But I’m sure she acknowledges that given the existence of many other Luo groups, there was a common source.

I don’t think we’re really as connected or knowledgeable on each other as one might think. I think there’s a disconnect for the most part between Equatoria and the Northern states/areas, and then in general, people mostly know about the ethnic groups they’ve actually had extensive contact with. I remember one of my friends in the 11th grade actually telling me she didn’t even know Equatorians existed until she met me. And I didn’t really know much about Dinka people back then either. I just knew we shared a country, and some of our names seemed similar. I gathered that we probably shared ancestry in the distant past, but I didn’t give it much thought past that. But all this is just my experience and what I’ve observed, anyway.

The claim that acholi come from anyuak specifically is wrong and makes no sense if you think about it. Those 2 Luo brothers labongo and gipir (story of the bead and spear) seperated after one of their sosn ate a bead and was killed getting it out and. One brother (proto-South luo speakers) went south and the other north east. Acholi speak Southern Luo and Anyuak speak northern Luo. The demographic bulk of the Luos actually migrated south into the great lakes. The ones remaining (northern luos) could be called a remnant group. Proto-Southern Luo has even been reconstructed.