Western Vs Islamic Systems

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DR OSMAN

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I know we got heaps of supporters of both systems for whatever reasons. But I want to analyze what is the best system. I know a-lot of people are going to start wondering oh the DR is a secularist and we know where this shit is heading. Just hang with me for a second and let me change your outlooks or conclusions on my views.

Yes I do support secular systems as a mode of living in this earthly space, I don't support secular systems that are western in nature though . Nor do I even believe we should put all our eggs into one basket. Let's be honest, secularism is purely about this world and yes it does have a place, if you neglect this world you can't possibly achieve any answers regarding this world or the next cause you will be dead. So it does have a role to play and intellect and reason should always be used in this respect.

But this is when I diverge from secularist, this idea to ignore that some sort of 'purpose' is burning inside most souls beyond our materialistic world can not be ignored or disregarded or viewed indifferently. This is when I say bye bye to secularist and enter the realm of the spirituality. Now the spiritual world doesn't have to be established religions, it can be anyone who is seeking a reason to continue living.

For example if I took the purely secularist point of view that you should live and reproduce and have family and enjoy what life has to offer, that's all fine but that is materialistic and there is a key problem with this. What about death? In death I won't need happiness, food, sex, water, or spirituality, or anything. A-lot of people hear death calling out to come and lie down, cuz all those needs and wants of the material world will be cured if you go to sleep. So how can the material world be an answer for an ultimate purpose burning inside someone when they can cure it all thru death? I mean honestly when your in a deep sleep do you really notice any needs or wants?

So if your living for needs/wants of this world and if that satisfies you, there is no problem there and we should allow them to continue as they have achieved their ultimate sense of purpose and secularism allows for that. But there is another section of people who may not be satisfied with that and I suspect that's why mental illnesses, stresses, suicides are on the rise globally becuz people are simply not happy with this, becuz I suspect they see all of it being cured thru death and hence it doesn't hold any meaning to them or gives them any sort of drive to push on any further, when all those desires can be cured with a simple injection to go to sleep.

These types of people really should have a separate avenue to answer that emptiness within them. That can be thru established religion and the god factor or it can be anything really as long as it's not 'materialistic, emotional, physical, etc'.

Now comes in the Islamist side, their using God and the after-life and the spiritual aspects to keep control of the masses in this world, we must accept that not all people have any burning purpose inside beyond what they see, hear, touch, smell, feel. This cannot be denied or disregarded and the Islamist won't allow these types of people to continue on with their materialistic outlook. You can't force someone to see something they don't see, let them be. The whole purpose of life is to fill your satisfied and content and have some reason to keep living.

If their reason is to keep living to play the Playstation or getting drunk or having sex with girls, getting married, good job, etc, let them be, that's their answers and they have reached their ultimate goal which is what we all should be aspiring to anyways is to reach that end-goal of hey I am 'happy' and I can continue on with life.

I also feel the Islamist form of government is not beneficial in anyway today, secularism definitely has it's hands all over that ten ways to sunday. There is no joke there either. Someone thinking about the now and present while reflecting on the past, compared to someone who is copying the past word for word are definitely not going to produce the same results in life. One is not adding anything useful(islamists) but copy n pasting and another is adding and progressing. They simply are not going to reach the same sort of productivity.

When it comes to productivity, we must use our brains nothing else. Yes we can look at the past for answers but if it isn't going to work, we must disregard it without any emotional attachments and secularism does achieve this. Where-as Islamist will copy all the islamic empires of the past regardless if it works or not due to emotional attachment of the prophet said this and god said that.
 

DR OSMAN

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Please no1 come into this thread that is troll...Inquisitive, Salax bidar, Cognissance are definitely welcome as they have something to contribute. The rest just stay the f*ck out, im in thinking mode now not kaftan and trolling.
 

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@Bidaar Wanagsan @Inquisitive_ @Cognitivedissonance

The Dr Is Waiting

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My face does turn like that when Thinking:drakelaugh:
 

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All praises be to Allah the most gracious the most merciful it is he alone who is the law giver it is him who dictates what is lawful and what is forbidden.

There’s no such thing as a secular Muslim it’s like saying I am a beef eating vegetarian boowe come correct or don’t come at all.

You want to follow your desires at a whim you ascribe to do as thou wilt philosophy which is satanic like the Thelema
 
this is a very interesting topic Dr osman but one thing which i need to know is that; what is your definition of the word "Islamist"?
 
Secular kulahaa you are weak person, you want to change your religions with White Kafirs Ideology , Islam is not an Ideology it is a Religion
 

DR OSMAN

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this is a very interesting topic Dr osman but one thing which i need to know is that; what is your definition of the word "Islamist"?

I mean the ones who have taken our burning desire of a 'purpose' and spirituality and played with it to achieve political goals. They are obviously using a need that is burning inside of a-lot of people and totally molested it and abused it. Now a group of people develop from this, Ayan Hersi and god bless her who say hang on this stuff 'goes' against my head, so how can god be less intelligent and Bidaar Wanagsan and Me who say hey yes this does goes against our head, wax macqul ah maba noqon karto lakin we still have a burning purpose inside us and won't let you islamists abuse it.

But we two camps are far closer to any truth then the islamists will ever be, most are damn sheeps who just do and do an do but have no real faith in it or else they wouldn't be seeking such earthly pleasures in return or caring about other people faith that is common behaviour of a true kufr. that's my honest opinion!!!
 
Legislation is for none but Allah and this is His 'ard you dirty cretin, only His laws apply and will be fully applied on earth sooner or later.
 

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Legislation is for none but Allah and this is His 'ard you dirty cretin, only His laws apply and will be fully applied on earth sooner or later.

Even those laws you find important can be eliminated thru death. Please some1 with some wisdom speak
 
Even those laws you find important can be eliminated thru death. Please some1 with some wisdom speak

What do you mean eliminated thru death? Islam has been around for 1438 years and Muslims are still clinging onto the law of Allah, and it will be like that till the Last Hour, ku seexo ku so toos
 

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What do you mean eliminated thru death? Islam has been around for 1438 years and Muslims are still clinging onto the law of Allah, and it will be like that till the Last Hour, ku seexo ku so toos

Sometimes I wonder if your trolling to hide a lack of capabilities or if your actually serious!!! I am still stuck between those two

Sxb there is nothing wrong with saying u dont know, I say it all the time in areas I feel I am lacking like science. But to come in and just argue for the sake of argument there can only be two possible reasons. 1. you want to show u know everything and conceal the incapability thru 'aggression, arguments, cay' etc or your just merely trolling and dont understand it and therefore make fun of it. But a wise person will be one who sits back reflects on the content and tests it and if he dont have an answer shuts up and watches.

Trust me I sit there reading heaps of threads which I have no clue on, u dont see me merely posting in it for no reason
 

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Sometimes I wonder what could've been so good you had to leave your religion, was it the white girls with their blond hair or?

Just because I said I am not satisfied with the current understanding of islam, doesnt mean I have an issue with god. I dont like how u view a topic doesnt mean I disregard the whole topic altogether!!! I disregarded your VIEWS which u say is GODS views. I still don't even say this is gods views but my understanding of it and in the future if there is better views I expect them to carry on and disregard mine.

I still don't know the word to use but I am erring towards the side of faith as that thing inside us that pushes us forward becuz the rest is time-limited or can be cured thru alternative means. Faith can be anything u want but it needs to convince you and only you.
 
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Just because I said I am not satisfied with the current understanding of islam, doesnt mean I have an issue with god. I dont like how u view a topic doesnt mean I disregard the whole topic altogether!!! I disregarded your VIEWS which u say is GODS views. I still don't even say this is gods views but my understanding of it.

Sxb the laws in Islam and the way society is supposed to be governed is set in stone and nothing can change that, as for secularism then whoever supports that is no longer inside the fold of Islam, the one who supports secularism is equal to the one who says Allah is not the Creator because just as one of the names of Allah is Al-Bari(the Creator) another name of Allah is Al-Hakim(the Legislator). Do you seriously think Allah created us to fast 30 days eat samosas and bow down 5 times a day? Do you think Allah would put us on earth without an instruction manual? Do you think Allah through prophet Muhammad saw would tell us what hand to eat with and what hand to clean ourselves with yet would not tell us how to deal with murderers and rapists? As for mixing secularism and Islam that's like trying to mix oil and water, and you should read Surah Al-kafirun to see what Allah azza wajjal says about that. You are excited because of the advancements you have seen in western country but that can all go in an instance. You should read up on the Roman Republic and how that came to an end, we are living in similar times.
 

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Sxb the laws in Islam and the way society is supposed to be governed is set in stone and nothing can change that, as for secularism then whoever supports that is no longer inside the fold of Islam, the one who supports secularism is equal to the one who says Allah is not the Creator because just as one of the names of Allah is Al-Bari(the Creator) another name of Allah is Al-Hakim(the Legislator). Do you seriously think Allah created us to fast 30 days eat samosas and bow down 5 times a day? Do you think Allah would put us on earth without an instruction manual? Do you think Allah through prophet Muhammad saw would tell us what hand to eat with and what hand to clean ourselves with yet would not tell us how to deal with murderers and rapists? As for mixing secularism and Islam that's like trying to mix oil and water, and you should read Surah Al-kafirun to see what Allah azza wajjal says about that. You are excited because of the advancements you have seen in western country but that can all go in an instance. You should read up on the Roman Republic and how that came to an end, we are living in similar times.

Wrong, I am not interested in the advancement of civilizations, I have said that materials don't last nor do empires and I go one step further then that, even if they did, I wouldn't want be doing the same thing for a million years over and over and why I find death is a silent blessing from God. We look at things very differently. I don't want to play a playstation and f*ck girls 24 hrs 7 days a week for 1 million years. I just cant find that satisfying in the long run before I ponder again what in the hell does this offer me that death cant where I wont be hungry, need sex, food, or anything. I compare my views to death and I have found the only true reason people live for is faith there is nothing else that we have that death cant really cure.

You seriously have me mistaken, if u dont understand where im coming from how can u criticize me? All im saying is what u have faith in and what i have faith in, doesnt have to be same it should only give us the same motivation to keep on driving. Someone motivation maybe to buy a home, have family, get rich, or whatever, im saying that's fine and to that person let him be maybe after doing it over and over they may realize it's pointless but if they dont let them be at least they are satisfied and happy and that's all humans are really looking for how me and u get there doesnt have to be the same road and you are not embracing this idea and trying to shove your views down my throat
 
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DR OSMAN

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U know I did say that I want a certain type of people in this thread. It's not for everyone, I wish I never had these thoughts or feelings and I don't want to disturb anyone who has already found their ultimate sense of purpose, because that's really what the goal is. If he found it in girls, money, cars, hobbies, joys, charity, let them be. I had the problem where I found no joys in these things, I felt I was self-medicating and it wasn't driving me forward or at least it wouldn't keep me going. I kept job hopping cuz i found no satisfication regardless of money, I found no deep satisfication sxb in anything in this material world and I spoke with death a number of times.

U know I wish I could just stay like everyone else and keep powering on like they do and stay motivated by the things they are, if I had that, I wouldnt want someone questioning that and why I wanna keep those people out of here. I am doing them a favor, trust me I wouldn't want someone taking away my motivation and reason to live.

But now I found what I truly love. It's not work, people, or anything. It's to travel, that's where my real joy is. I want to take in as much as I can before I die and travel the world. I remember the only time I can really say I was happy was when I was in Africa sitting in a village. But I realized it wasn't africa but the fact I was free to do what I want. So now my goals are to work, stay healthy, and make a shit l oad of money to fund my biggest adventure and biggest dream in life. Staying healthy, makin money, and eating and all this now is just a means to an ultimate end for me. The reason I really wannt travel is to find deep answers to re-enforce my beliefs. I think I can possibly look death in the eye then and say 'im ready to go now' for the next ride.

I am not talking about holiday either, im talkin about ibn batuta style, like a good 20 years of my life especially after I bought all the things I need in life and family and all that.
 
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U know I did say that I want a certain type of people in this thread. It's not for everyone, I wish I never had these thoughts or feelings and I don't want to disturb anyone who has already found their ultimate sense of purpose, because that's really what the goal is. If he found it in girls, money, cars, hobbies, joys, charity, let them be. I had the problem where I found no joys in these things, I felt I was self-medicating and it wasn't driving me forward or at least it wouldn't keep me going. I kept job hopping cuz i found no satisfication regardless of money, I found no deep satisfication sxb in anything in this material world and I spoke with death a number of times.

U know I wish I could just stay like everyone else and keep powering on like they do and stay motivated by the things they are, if I had that, I wouldnt want someone questioning that and why I wanna keep those people out of here. I am doing them a favor, trust me I wouldn't want someone taking away my motivation and reason to live.

But now I found what I truly love. It's not work, people, or anything. It's to travel, that's where my real joy is. I want to take in as much as I can before I die and travel the world. I remember the only time I can really say I was happy was when I was in Africa sitting in a village. But I realized it wasn't africa but the fact I was free to do what I want. So now my goals are to work, stay healthy, and make a shit l oad of money to fund my biggest adventure and biggest dream in life. Staying healthy, makin money, and eating and all this now is just a means to an ultimate end for me. The reason I really wannt travel is to find deep answers to re-enforce my beliefs. I think I can possibly look death in the eye then and say 'im ready to go now' for the next ride.

I am not talking about holiday either, im talkin about ibn batuta style, like a good 20 years of my life especially after I bought all the things I need in life and family and all that.


A Common theme in the Quran is the special emphasis on physical travel (not just spiritual) there are numerous Ayah's that begin with "Have they not travelled through the earth .... " (mentioned 27 times)


Do they then not travel through the Earth, so that their minds gain wisdom and their ears thus learn to hear? 22:46

Do they not travel through the Earth, and deeply observe what was the End of those before them? 47:10

Tell them: Travel through the Earth and deeply observe HOW God did originate the creation; then God produces the next creation; surely God has power over all things. 29:19-20


Ways of life have passed away before you. So do but travel through the Earth and deeply observe how was the End of the rejectors. 3:137


Or the famous hadith of the Prophet "“Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller along a path” Nothing quit detaches you from the material world then travels, much of Ghazali great works and spiritual enlightenment as he writes came through travels

We get to know our creator better through travels, some of the most spiritual moments I had were on travels staring at never ending mountain ranges, a desert or a lake etc. you really begin to appreciate as well as deeply reflect upon the creations of Allah in those times like never before.

You have fought off what most people struggle with (the physical materialistic attachments) but because you have took up so much western infidel satanic literature's and brain poisons, that spiritual side is unable to shine bright until you remove these shackles.

Your experiences were not much different from my own experiences, travelling creates a "better you" you cross examine yourself far better while being free from societal pressures/conformity or any other barriers or distractions that would normally stop you.

It's time for you to humble yourself and make dua to your creator for guidance, salvation and peace like our Father Ibrahim did.

That's the only side that is missing with you, contentment/purpose comes from Allah alone, until you accept full submission deep within your heart and surrender yourself, you will never taste this.

Your situation is worse then the average person just like mine was in those days because of our detachment from this materialistic world which gives others false hopes, purpose and meaning to cling onto.

This is a blessing as well as a curse, it becomes a curse if you also become spiritual detached or even worse deny the existence of it which you seem to be doing, you have to embrace this to stand any kind of chance, otherwise your heading towards complete ruins.

This is sincere brotherly advice.
 
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DR OSMAN

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A Common theme in the Quran is the special emphasis on physical travel (not just spiritual) there are numerous Ayah's that begin with "Have they not travelled through the earth .... " (mentioned 27 times)


Do they then not travel through the Earth, so that their minds gain wisdom and their ears thus learn to hear? 22:46

Do they not travel through the Earth, and deeply observe what was the End of those before them? 47:10

Tell them: Travel through the Earth and deeply observe HOW God did originate the creation; then God produces the next creation; surely God has power over all things. 29:19-20


Ways of life have passed away before you. So do but travel through the Earth and deeply observe how was the End of the rejectors. 3:137


Or the famous hadith of the Prophet "“Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller along a path” Nothing quit detaches you from the material world then travels, much of Ghazali great works and spiritual enlightenment as he writes came through travels

We get to know our creator better through travels, some of the most spiritual moments I had were on travels staring at never ending mountain ranges, a desert or a lake etc. you really begin to appreciate as well as deeply reflect upon the creations of Allah in those times like never before.

You have fought off what most people struggle with (the physical materialistic attachments) but because you have took up so much western infidel satanic literature's and brain poisons, that spiritual side is unable to shine bright until you remove these shackles.

Your experiences were not much different from my own experiences, travelling creates a "better you" you cross examine yourself far better while being free from societal pressures/conformity or any other barriers or distractions that would normally stop you.

It's time for you to humble yourself and make dua to your creator for guidance, salvation and peace like our Father Ibrahim did.

That's the only side that is missing with you, contentment/purpose comes from Allah alone, until you accept full submission deep within your heart and surrender yourself, you will never taste this.

Your situation is worse then the average person just like mine was in those days because of our detachment from this materialistic world which gives others false hopes, purpose and meaning to cling onto.

This is a blessing as well as a curse, it becomes a curse if you also become spiritual detached or even worse deny the existence of it which you seem to be doing, you have to embrace this to stand any kind of chance, otherwise your heading towards complete ruins.

This is sincere brotherly advice.

Lets please not go back n forth. The honest sincere truth is just because I don't understand something be it any religion, this doesn't invalidate it. Do u know what I mean? Just because there is a limitation with me, doesn't make what any religion say not true. So I am not saying any religion is not true, all I am saying is it doesn't fit well with me and maybe that is a problem with me but you know the great thing about that? I am limited so you can't blame me for that.

The essence when u take out all the he said she said of religion is. Buddha basically said your suffering or emptiness in life is you and you need to fix you not focus on god or anything beyond, the logic is basically god isn't here on earth and he isn't going thru what your going thru so his views basically was you need to make sure when u die you have no regrets or a bad conscious or u may come back into life and re-do this process until you finally get the message and die with no regrets.

Jesus message when the he said she said and is god a son or a man, that's all details. His message basically was you need a 'savior' you can't do it on your own, you will fall short regardless how much u try.

Mohamed message is basically forget this life its all an illusion and what he meant by that to my understanding anyways is, death runs a check on everything in this life, so it's pointless chasing the natural world cuz with one injection in your vein, you can be in a coma and not need any of that or have pain or suffering or any of this existence.

I can appreciate all those messages all of it and to say only 1 is true, I think is wishful thinking. I am now more interested in finding out what animists believe and will be a big part of my journey in the future when I start travelling to visit those areas, there is a real gap in my knowledge there.

Judaism is basically saying there is no hell or heaven and everything is about following the laws and stuff

Now the conclusions reached regarding the after-life, this is where I simply diverge I hold a similar view as the jews about hell or heaven, I appreciate mohamed message that this world is an illusion, and I appreciate jesus message that even if we do all this we will probably still fall short of an answer, and Buddha message keep the focus on yourself not someone else or up n above in the sky.

I appreciate the core messages of a-lot of religions and there is also a limitation with me and how far I can actually understand what their saying so I take that into account also. But that's where I am now, I still feel empty and hopefully with travel in the future this emptiness may come to a close. So I am not saying I have the answer, but this is where I am at now in my spiritual journey.
 

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So inquistive if you have no emptiness and your honest with yourself, mashallah bro. You made it, just dont lie to yourself tho!!! But the ones who do have an emptiness, start exploring is all I can say, there is no point lying to yourself and staying put cuz that's just 'caadifad' weeye sxb and blind faith.

Now the Islam in practise today, I see no different to the idol worshippers they criticize. I don't look at the details like christians worship a man or an the mushriks worship an 'idol statue' but your just doing things over and over like a ritual, without exploring anymore. I think that's why Mohamed left the paganism behind, he saw no more value to this and it's just repetitiveness with no substance. How is what Muslims do today any different? this isn't any different to idol worship at all, they did things over and over for their idols and your doing the same behaviour of repetitiveness, and just your saying god is invisible. I suspect if Mohamed was alive, he wouldn't be following this religion that is in practise.

The funny thing, I suspect he wasn't similar to the islam we see today, that's just how some men handed it down to us. U basically follow those mens interpretations, I don't put my faith in them anymore unless their saying something 'wise'. Thats me inquisitive, I might be called a big kuffar but at least im honest with myself. If I said this in Saudi arabia, I would be lynched just like Mohamed was by the pagans.
 

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I think there is no good or evil, that's where I am now. I could be wrong and maybe my travels in the future will answer those questions. But I honestly don't think it exists. Good and Evil to me is when u have gut drops to the ground and your emotionally wrecked when you interpret something or it's in absolute Unexplainable Joy. This is centered around an individual and were not going to be able to generate that feeling in anyone by copying everyone to some sort of 'standard'.

I think it's all about that emptiness within us and finding answers for it. Now if killing millions of Jews will answer that emptiness for you and hitler was absolutely happy about it and content, How can I fault him? He might be sitting with god, he felt he answered that emptiness, if however he didn't think it was good what he was doing then that is on his conscious and god knows where he is now. But the actual acts of good n evil I don't think exist, because this world is an illusion, it doesn't matter in essence.

Ima a strange cat but i dont look at things black n white or in details but at an over-all scope. But like I said, I may be different in 50 years time as life progresses and I hope I am but I am not there now and that's the truth.
 
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