The tall people of ancient Azania

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

The ~3,500 year old Cairn 4 burial excavated by Daniel Stiles, containing the 190 cm/6’4″ skeleton of an early Cushitic male settler (Stiles and Munro-Hay (1981)).

http://danstiles.org/publications/archaeology/3.Azanian (MSAFIRI 46).pdf

http://anthromadness.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/the-azanians-cushitic-speaking-people.html?m=1

Seems like the Azanians were a South Cushitic group.

 

[Grant]

Interesting footnote from the link:

http://ethiohelix.blogspot.com/2013/02/sudan-ydna.html

YDNA in modern Sudan: very high levels of V-32; high in the Beja, but even higher in the Masalit, who are Nilo-Saharan. (Somalis are 52% E-V-32.)

 

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

Interesting footnote from the link:

http://ethiohelix.blogspot.com/2013/02/sudan-ydna.html

YDNA in modern Sudan: very high levels of V-32; high in the Beja, but even higher in the Masalit, who are Nilo-Saharan. (Somalis are 52% E-V-32.)

What you insinuating , G?

 

[Ferrari]

What you insinuating , G?

Allow him. Somalidu waxba uma ogala.

 

[Grant]

What you insinuating , G?

Here's the Wiki on the Masalit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masalit_people

"Masalit traditions trace their original homeland to Tunisia. Passing through Chad, they eventually settled in the Sudan vicinity.[2]"

"According to Hassan et al. (2008), around 71.9% of Masalit are carriers of the E1b1b paternal haplogroup. Of these, 73.9% bear the V32 subclade. Approximately 6.3% also belong to the haplogroup J1. This points to significant patrilineal gene flow from neighbouring Afro-Asiatic-speaking populations. The remaining Masalit individuals are primarily carriers of the A3b2 lineage (18.8%), which is instead common among Nilotes.[3]

Maternally, the Masalit entirely belong to African-based derivatives of the macrohaplogroup L according to Hassan (2010). Of these mtDNA clades, the L0a1 (14.6%) and L1c (12.2%) lineages are most frequent. This altogether suggests that the genetic introgression into the Masalit's ancestral population was asymmetrical, occurring primarily through Afro-Asiatic-speaking males rather than females.[4]"

I think this whole thing supports the notion of migration out of the Sahara, into the Nile valley and then up the Nile tributaries into Ethiopia and East Africa.

 

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

Grant , I don't want to bring up old debates about ancient migration routes , suffice it to say my understanding of DNA and haplogroups is not on the level of yours and @Amun .

However , what I will say is that there could have been several routes of expansion of early Cushites from a more Northern area . For example, Ancient Egypt texts indicate that there were two ways of reaching the land of Punt . The first was down the route you suggested ( land,following the river ,etc.). The second was via the Red Sea , as accomplished by Hatesheputs fleet .

Some early Cushites could have made their way down the Red Sea / coastal areas to their present locations , whilst others could have gone through the Ethiopian route .

Remember the " Barbaroi " consisted of basically different communities and settlements who were ruled by many chieftains and were connected by some kind of pastoral -linguistic heritage/ trade . Why should everyone have to have taken their same route ?

The important thing about Lewis' study and other new DNA developments is it refutes a Bantu origin claim for the Azania Civilization .

As for the Masai and otherNilotes ,the stone bowl excavations show that the early Azanian settler were most likely Afro Asiatic people , who were later joined by Nilotes and/or took on aspects of their culture , due to incisor extractions on the latter skeletal remains . Obviously , the phenotype of the DNA results of some Masai groups clearly show they mixed with Cushitic populations at some point .

 

[Grant]

Grant , I don't want to bring up old debates about ancient migration routes , suffice it to say my understanding of DNA and haplogroups is not on the level of yours and @Amun .

However , what I will say is that there could have been several routes of expansion of early Cushites from a more Northern area . For example, Ancient Egypt texts indicate that there were two ways of reaching the land of Punt . The first was down the route you suggested ( land,following the river ,etc.). The second was via the Red Sea , as accomplished by Hatesheputs fleet .

Some early Cushites could have made their way down the Red Sea / coastal areas to their present locations , whilst others could have gone through the Ethiopian route .

Remember the " Barbaroi " consisted of basically different communities and settlements who were ruled by many chieftains and were connected by some kind of pastoral -linguistic heritage/ trade . Why should everyone have to have taken their same route ?

The important thing about Lewis' study and other new DNA developments is it refutes a Bantu origin claim for the Azania Civilization .

As for the Masai and otherNilotes ,the stone bowl excavations show that the early Azanian settler were most likely Afro Asiatic people , who were later joined by Nilotes and/or took on aspects of their culture , due to incisor extractions on the latter skeletal remains . Obviously , the phenotype of the DNA results of some Masai groups clearly show they mixed with Cushitic populations at some point .

Exactly what I have been trying to suggest. "T" came down the Red Sea coast. E1b1b came up the Nile tributaries. I think the Egyptian land route involved the Atbara. The Iraqw likely followed the White Nile much further south and the Ethiopian Cushitic groups intermediate tributaries on both the Blue and White Niles. . I agree with you generally about the rest.

 

[James Dahl]

E-V32 is ancient, it's found in ancient Greeks (from the Minoans and Pelasgians who lived there prior to the Indo-European invasion) and the descendants of ancient stone age pre-Indo European farmers in Europe, it probably originated in Egypt maybe 20 thousand years ago but it's so old that you can't really make recent, historical era connections with it.

In the last few years there have been a lot of new SNPs discovered that are descendant of E-V32 and testing for those could tell more about how related the different E-V32 ethnic groups are related to one another. The Masalit could share an ancestor with Somalis 20,000 years ago or 8,000 or even 2,000 depending on which downstream SNPs they also share.

 

[Grant]

E-V32 is ancient, it's found in ancient Greeks (from the Minoans and Pelasgians who lived there prior to the Indo-European invasion) and the descendants of ancient stone age pre-Indo European farmers in Europe, it probably originated in Egypt maybe 20 thousand years ago but it's so old that you can't really make recent, historical era connections with it.

In the last few years there have been a lot of new SNPs discovered that are descendant of E-V32 and testing for those could tell more about how related the different E-V32 ethnic groups are related to one another. The Masalit could share an ancestor with Somalis 20,000 years ago or 8,000 or even 2,000 depending on which downstream SNPs they also share.

James,

Not denying E-V-32 in Europe, but the Wiki doesn't cover it. Also, the ages and locations are different. This was updated in 2016. Do you have more recent data?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V32

In human genetics, E-V32, also known as E1b1b1a1a1b[1] (Formerly E3b1a1a), is a Y DNA Chromosome haplogroup found primarily in the Horn of Africa, a descendant of the larger E-V68 branch of the macrohaplogroup E.

Origins
Cruciani et al. (2007) suggest that this sub-clade of E-V12 originated in North Africa, and then subsequently expanded further south into the Horn of Africa, where it is now prevalent.[Note 3] Before the discovery of V32, Cruciani et al. (2004)referred to the same lineages as the "gamma cluster", which was estimated to have arisen about 8,500 years ago. They stated that "the highest frequencies in the three Cushitic-speaking groups: the Borana from Kenya (71.4%), the Oromo from Ethiopia (32.0%), and the Somali (52.2%). Outside of eastern Africa, it was found in two subjects from Egypt (3.6%) and in one Arab from Morocco".

Age
YFull[2] estimates the V32 branch was formed 10100 years before present, and the time to the most recent common ancestor is 7900 years before present.

Distribution


Distribution of E-V32 in Africa.
Tillmar et al. (2009) typed 147 males from Somalia for 12 Y-STR loci, and observed that 77% (113/147) had typical E-V32 haplotypes. This is currently the highest frequency of E-V32 found in any single sample population. Similarly, Hassan et al. (2008) in their study observed this to be the most common of the sub-clades of E-M78 found in Sudan, especially among the Beja, Masalit and Fur.

 

[agnes]

The tallest people on earth come from the Netherlands.

 

[XamarCade]

The tallest people on earth come from the Netherlands.

It's actually South Sudanese ppl

 

[agnes]

It's actually South Sudanese ppl

They are tall but not the tallest. The Dutch men are tallest in the world.

 

[Slowmo]

They are tall but not the tallest. The Dutch men are tallest in the world.

South Sudanese, don't have any real data on them and also remember, the majority of their time. South Sudanese have lived in abject poverty and deprivation for most of their history in comparison to their western counterparts. I would agree that dutch are the tallest at the moment. But including somalis, if both dinka and us live in a first world country, with general good diet, i can assure you we would both increase in height above the dutch easily.

 

[anonimo]

E-V32 is ancient, it's found in ancient Greeks (from the Minoans and Pelasgians who lived there prior to the Indo-European invasion) and the descendants of ancient stone age pre-Indo European farmers in Europe, it probably originated in Egypt maybe 20 thousand years ago but it's so old that you can't really make recent, historical era connections with it.

In the last few years there have been a lot of new SNPs discovered that are descendant of E-V32 and testing for those could tell more about how related the different E-V32 ethnic groups are related to one another. The Masalit could share an ancestor with Somalis 20,000 years ago or 8,000 or even 2,000 depending on which downstream SNPs they also share.

Suugo Science!

 

[anonimo]

James,

Not denying E-V-32 in Europe, but the Wiki doesn't cover it. Also, the ages and locations are different. This was updated in 2016. Do you have more recent data?

He is probably mixing up E-V32 with the E-V13 E1b1b subclade that has an ancient presence in Europe. Moreover, E-V32 has not been estimated to be 20,000 years old. European individuals who are E-V32 might exist, but no research study has identified it in any Neolithic settlement. Herr Amun will be able to shed more light on this.

 

[BestCaseScenario]

I saw a chart once that showed and broke down per percentage all groups in Europe and Africa who are today of E-V32. Somalis are also into the 70% no less opposite to what someone above suggested.

Whatever the case, we are very old ethnic group.

 

[BestCaseScenario]

I typed e1b1b and Somali, European website of genealogy came up AT THE TOP. SO, E-V32 must be in Europe since that website is exclusive to European heritage.

"Geographic distribution

Outside Europe, E1b1b is found at high frequencies in Morocco (over 80%), Somalia (80%), Ethiopia (40% to 80%), Tunisia (70%), Algeria (60%), Egypt (40%), Jordan (25%), Palestine (20%), and Lebanon (17.5%). On the European continent it has the highest concentration in Kosovo (over 45%), Albania and Montenegro (both 27%), Bulgaria (23%), Macedonia and Greece (both 21%), Cyprus (20%), Sicily (20%), South Italy (18.5%), Serbia (18%) and Romania (15%). Ashkenazi Jews have approximately 20% of E1b1b, which falls mostly under specific clades of E-M123."


Scroll down on this page and see the chart. of who is who of E-V32.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

 

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

Exactly what I have been trying to suggest. "T" came down the Red Sea coast. E1b1b came up the Nile tributaries. I think the Egyptian land route involved the Atbara. The Iraqw likely followed the White Nile much further south and the Ethiopian Cushitic groups intermediate tributaries on both the Blue and White Niles. . I agree with you generally about the rest.

I was trying to steer away from yet another DNA discussion . Anyway ,,,,,,,,,

 

[Grant]

I was trying to steer away from yet another DNA discussion . Anyway ,,,,,,,,,

Be careful what you ask for. Besides, if the Azanians were Cushites, that raises issues, not the least of which is where they came from and how they got there.

 

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

[/QUOTE]
The 3000 year old skeleton was 6

Be careful what you ask for. Besides, if the Azanians were Cushites, that raises issues, not the least of which is where they came from and how they got there.

You have your theory as others have theirs . I don't think there is need to regurgitate the same points for verbatim in every thread .