The Absurdity of God's Wrath

.The test is not for Allah it is for you, before you were Man Allah asked all creation if they would like to take on the amanaah which is a test, all of the creation denied it except man and jinn, the reason for this is to give man a choice on what he wants to do, Man chose to have this test.
I know that the test is for us. Is it for only Jinns and Mankind? Why did Allah create us for? To worship him. Why worship him? Because if you don’t you will go to hell. If you do you will go to Jannah. Isn’t that the test? That is a little bit steering off the Qadr discussion. As for the Amaanah, huh I didn’t know that it meant the test. I could have googled it but am lazy.
The test is, do good get good, do bad get bad, Allah did this test for us, so we can chose to go jannah, but we must pay a price to get there, or if we fail then we go hell, Or we could not take the test and be free of responsibility, it was our own choice.
Did Allah know that man and jinn would be the ones to chose the test? (of course he did, because he knows everything). If that’s the case how could we have “chosen” the test?
Allah does not need to test us, Allah never said he needs to test us, Allah wanted to test us, and we are the ones who asked for it, if we didn't Allah wouldn't have tested us.
Allah doesn’t need to test us but he wanted to test us? Hmm I guess there might be some difference between want and need but idk. Also check what I said to the second part of your first point. I referenced the ayah in suratul Dhariyat about why we were created. As for US asking for it…wasn’t it Allah who asked us and we accepted to take the test (I hope that’s what Amaanah means) according to the ayah in suratul Ahzab?? It is somewhat different.
If Allah forced us not to take the test because he already knew the results, than that would be infringing on our free will to chose what we want, and that would be unfair, it would be the same as stopping someone from enacting his free will and chance to do something because I know he won't actually reach it, if this were the case it would be unfair as Allah is forcing his will on us and not allowing people to chose jannah. So it is a mercy to us
There is so many things wrong here and I will keep repeating my points if I respond here so I hope the other points I made gives you reasons why I would disagree with your point there.
Allah knows what will happen, why should Allah stop the test just because he knows what will happen? The hidden assumption here is that Allah is doing the test for himself, which he is not, man must go through the test as they wanted it and they asked for it and must be judged for their own decisions, it is a mercy to mankind
No I think he is doing it for himself too since he said he created us to worship him which is part of the test. A big part.
You do not understand how qadr works.
You said
, Allah knows the actions He himself would take. Allah knows at the Day of Judgement that the prophet Muhammad would ask for شفاعة. And Allah would accept. Allah cannot refuse the prophet in the Day of judgement. So Allah is not all powerful.
Allah accepts out of his choice, he is not forced to make the choice, he knows he will make the choice, thats it, Allah could have chosen to reject the dua, it is all in his power to do what he wants, Allah can refuse the prophet sallallahu alayhi wasalam, he just chooses not to
Whatever you say, according to islam, Allah will accept the shafa’ah and he won’t be able to do otherwise whether he wants to or not. Why? Because if he doesn’t do that, he would not only have lied but it would show us that Allah doesn’t know everything. What does Allah knowing everything have to do with Qadr? I explained in the next point.
Allah chose for the qadr to be a certain way and he won't change it because he he doesn't want to
Whether he wants to or not, he can’t change it. If he could change it then we have to stop saying he knows everything. If Allah knows he would change his action from a certain action to another at a point in time, then he can change his action from a certain action to another at a point in time. Allah won’t be able to not change his action at that point in time. If he does stop changing his action at that point in time, then that will contradict his all-knowingness.
 
I know that the test is for us. Is it for only Jinns and Mankind? Why did Allah create us for? To worship him. Why worship him? Because if you don’t you will go to hell. If you do you will go to Jannah. Isn’t that the test? That is a little bit steering off the Qadr discussion. As for the Amaanah, huh I didn’t know that it meant the test. I could have googled it but am lazy.
yes Allah created us to have mercy on us, by entering jannah, by worshipping him, which is easy,
As for US asking for it…wasn’t it Allah who asked us and we accepted to take the test (I hope that’s what Amaanah means) according to the ayah in suratul Ahzab?? It is somewhat different.
The fact we accepted the test shows we wanted it, its simple, we asked for this test, we didnt need to accept the test, Allah gave us free will and knowledge, we said we wanted the test, there is nor problem here
No I think he is doing it for himself too since he said he created us to worship him which is part of the test. A big part.
Allah doesn't benefit from our worship of him, he only created us to have mrcy on us, because as a result of worshipping him for a finite amount of time we get infinite bliss
Whatever you say, according to islam, Allah will accept the shafa’ah and he won’t be able to do otherwise whether he wants to or not. Why? Because if he doesn’t do that, he would not only have lied but it would show us that Allah doesn’t know everything. What does Allah knowing everything have to do with Qadr? I explained in the next point.
What the hell are you on about, ur making squared circle arguments.
Allah literally WANTS to accept the shafaa'ah, thats why he created it, gave to the the prophet sallallahu alayhi wasalam, informed us about it, If Allah didnt want the shafaah he wouldnt have given in to the prophetﷺ in the first place.
ur argument is like me saying if i want to give u a banana then I cant not want to give u a banana therefore it is impossible for me to not give u the banana
ur argument is a contradiction.
Allah knows everything, how can Allah decree something he does not know, your waffling again, Allah wants something in the future, he doesnt change his mind he is not like us,

Whether he wants to or not, he can’t change it. If he could change it then we have to stop saying he knows everythin
Allah is the one who decides and changes, if Allah decides for a rock to be created noone can change it except for Allah
ur argument is, Allah cannot change his
Whether he wants to or not, he can’t change it. If he could change it then we have to stop saying he knows everything. If Allah knows he would change his action from a certain action to another at a point in time, then he can change his action from a certain action to another at a point in time. Allah won’t be able to not change his action at that point in time. If he does stop changing his action at that point in time, then that will contradict his all-knowingness.
Again this argument is a squar circle argument, Allah doesnt abide by time like us, false equivocation, Allah chooses what he wants to do and knows what he does and what he will do, Allah isnt bound by time, thats ur problem, he does what he wants, and it happens, noone can change it, ur argument makes 0 sense
 
Allah isnt bound by time, thats ur problem, he does what he wants, and it happens, noone can change it, ur argument makes 0 sense
I will reply fully first but this caught my eye. Allah DOES experience time.
suratul Hajj:
وَيَسْتَعْجِلُونَكَ بِٱلْعَذَابِ وَلَن يُخْلِفَ ٱللَّهُ وَعْدَهُۥ ۚ وَإِنَّ يَوْمًا عِندَ رَبِّكَ كَأَلْفِ سَنَةٍۢ مِّمَّا تَعُدُّونَ ٤٧
They challenge you ˹O Prophet˺ to hasten the torment. And Allah will never fail in His promise. But a day with your Lord is indeed like a thousand years by your counting. 47
 
I will reply fully first but this caught my eye. Allah DOES experience time.
suratul Hajj:
وَيَسْتَعْجِلُونَكَ بِٱلْعَذَابِ وَلَن يُخْلِفَ ٱللَّهُ وَعْدَهُۥ ۚ وَإِنَّ يَوْمًا عِندَ رَبِّكَ كَأَلْفِ سَنَةٍۢ مِّمَّا تَعُدُّونَ ٤٧
They challenge you ˹O Prophet˺ to hasten the torment. And Allah will never fail in His promise. But a day with your Lord is indeed like a thousand years by your counting. 47
No he doesnt thats not what that verse means
The way Allah views time is different to our
the day of judgement is only a day to Allah
when for us it feels like 50,000 years
So Allah does not experience time, Allah just views time differently to us
if u look at the tafseer thats what the verse means
 
No he doesnt thats not what that verse means
The way Allah views time is different to our
the day of judgement is only a day to Allah
when for us it feels like 50,000 years
So Allah does not experience time, Allah just views time differently to us
if u look at the tafseer thats what the verse means
I took it literally my fault.
 
My point is, why is Allah testing him when our guy (from the example) would fail the test anyways?
Allah knows what will happen and what will come right? Since Allah knows the future, the future is set in stone basically. Everything is fated to be. Whatever someone does, Allah knew it would happen. Allah knows the guy would doubt at 40 years of age and become a disbeliever. Allah knows when the guy dies as a disbeliever, that he would send him to hell.

I can take it a step further. Since Allah knows the future, Allah knows the actions He himself would take. Allah knows at the Day of Judgement that the prophet Muhammad would ask for شفاعة. And Allah would accept. Allah cannot refuse the prophet in the Day of judgement. So Allah is not all powerful.
Everything that is happening, Allah has no power to make it not happen the way it is predestined to be. If tomorrow morning Yahya in Minnesota is predestined to eat sabaayad, he will eat sabaayad and not canjeero. Allah cant change that. This scenario is the same as a machine that does specific tasks at specific times with no external powers interfering or the machine malfunctioning. And the machine cannot do otherwise.

Writing this just made me aware of how messed up it feels to know what you will do (since I assume Allah has self-awareness) and not be able to change it.

That being said, if you are honest to yourself and I communicated well, and if everything I wrote is right, then you should realize after this that Islam does not seem sensical.

Feel free to point out where am not right.
Fate
My point is, why is Allah testing him when our guy (from the example) would fail the test anyways?
Allah knows what will happen and what will come right? Since Allah knows the future, the future is set in stone basically. Everything is fated to be. Whatever someone does, Allah knew it would happen. Allah knows the guy would doubt at 40 years of age and become a disbeliever. Allah knows when the guy dies as a disbeliever, that he would send him to hell.

I can take it a step further. Since Allah knows the future, Allah knows the actions He himself would take. Allah knows at the Day of Judgement that the prophet Muhammad would ask for شفاعة. And Allah would accept. Allah cannot refuse the prophet in the Day of judgement. So Allah is not all powerful.
Everything that is happening, Allah has no power to make it not happen the way it is predestined to be. If tomorrow morning Yahya in Minnesota is predestined to eat sabaayad, he will eat sabaayad and not canjeero. Allah cant change that. This scenario is the same as a machine that does specific tasks at specific times with no external powers interfering or the machine malfunctioning. And the machine cannot do otherwise.

Writing this just made me aware of how messed up it feels to know what you will do (since I assume Allah has self-awareness) and not be able to change it.

That being said, if you are honest to yourself and I communicated well, and if everything I wrote is right, then you should realize after this that Islam does not seem sensical.

Feel free to point out where am not right.
U are make assessments based on the understanding and perception of being a human and human reality. Allah is above ur logic. This is wat most non believer or those muslims with weak islam knowledge don't understand or don't want to...also in general, ur confusion and lack of comprehending Is coming from the nuance that u don't understand which is that free will is above or able to change predestined fate...I think that is the whole point of the test.
 
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1.The test is not for Allah it is for you, before you were Man Allah asked all creation if they would like to take on the amanaah which is a test, all of the creation denied it except man and jinn, the reason for this is to give man a choice on what he wants to do, Man chose to have this test.
The test is, do good get good, do bad get bad, Allah did this test for us, so we can chose to go jannah, but we must pay a price to get there, or if we fail then we go hell, Or we could not take the test and be free of responsibility, it was our own choice.
2.Allah does not need to test us, Allah never said he needs to test us, Allah wanted to test us, and we are the ones who asked for it, if we didn't Allah wouldn't have tested us.
3.If Allah forced us not to take the test because he already knew the results, than that would be infringing on our free will to chose what we want, and that would be unfair, it would be the same as stopping someone from enacting his free will and chance to do something because I know he won't actually reach it, if this were the case it would be unfair as Allah is forcing his will on us and not allowing people to chose jannah. So it is a mercy to us
4. Allah knows what will happen, why should Allah stop the test just because he knows what will happen? The hidden assumption here is that Allah is doing the test for himself, which he is not, man must go through the test as they wanted it and they asked for it and must be judged for their own decisions, it is a mercy to mankind
5.You do not understand how qadr works.
You said
, Allah knows the actions He himself would take. Allah knows at the Day of Judgement that the prophet Muhammad would ask for شفاعة. And Allah would accept. Allah cannot refuse the prophet in the Day of judgement. So Allah is not all powerful.
Allah accepts out of his choice, he is not forced to make the choice, he knows he will make the choice, thats it, Allah could have chosen to reject the dua, it is all in his power to do what he wants, Allah can refuse the prophet sallallahu alayhi wasalam, he just chooses not to

Also, the qadr was written by Allah, Allah determined everything, and Allah knew all of it, if he wanted he could have determined it another way, the qadr is under Allahs command, Allah chose for the qadr to be a certain way and he won't change it because he he doesn't want to, u assume qadr is a separate entitiy from Allah which it isnt. Qadr is a direct showing of Allahs Strength and power, it is not a separate thing it is subject to Allah completely.

Where did you get that Allah cannot change his own actions? Allah is the one who chose do to them in the first place
Who was the first man and jinn that accepted Allah's offer to test them?
I became curious after your post.
In order for us to learn more about Allah, is to read, memories and understand the 99 names of allah.
As Allah is Al Jaliil the majestic one, the glorious and the sublime.
 
Because allah created us and he can do what he wants.
For example let's say you created a robot and it randomly had free will and consciousness, you probably would want to control it and have the final say over it. Same thing we are no different
 

induction

Nothing is true; everything is permitted
I can most definitely be wrong here, but here's my reasoning:

Premise 1: God knows everything.
Premise 2: God can do anything.
Premise 3: Nothing happens without God allowing it to happen.
Premise 4: God can remove anything that would make Him angry.
Premise 5: God would know what these things are prior to them coming to be.
Conclusion: God's Wrath is absurd.
am with you till premise 3. but in premise 4 maybe God being "angry" isn't like a human being angry? like there is nothing like God, so by that definition alone, his "anger" isn't the same as a human's. so by his "anger" maybe it should be taken metaphorically and be interpreted as the human getting punished as a result of the action that made God "angry".
 

mr.overeasy

The most egg-celent member
I can most definitely be wrong here, but here's my reasoning:

Premise 1: God knows everything.
Premise 2: God can do anything.
Premise 3: Nothing happens without God allowing it to happen.
Premise 4: God can remove anything that would make Him angry.
Premise 5: God would know what these things are prior to them coming to be.
Conclusion: God's Wrath is absurd.
thats because you don't understand how things work.

think of it like this, a human makes a sim game that allows the npcs to be evil.

they do this to see "what would happen" and bad characters would suffer as they do evil.

this scenario can't help you completely understand, but it illustrates something important, scale!

the difference in intelligence between a basic npc and you is far smaller than the difference between you and ALLAH (SWT).

HE (SWT) gave us these abilities to test us in who is best. ALLAH (SWT) does what HE wants when HE wants, and HE wanted to do this.

HE (SWT) makes new things all the time, since angels already listen unconditionally it only makes sense the eternal creator would make something that decides!
 
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