The Absurdity of God's Wrath

[TheManWhoIsAlive]

I can most definitely be wrong here, but here's my reasoning:

Premise 1: God knows everything.
Premise 2: God can do anything.
Premise 3: Nothing happens without God allowing it to happen.
Premise 4: God can remove anything that would make Him angry.
Premise 5: God would know what these things are prior to them coming to be.
Conclusion: God's Wrath is absurd.

 

[Keep it a boqol]

There is a fundamental flaw in permise 4 5 and your conclusion.

Allah has the ability to create a world without evil however he chose not to this is explicitly stated in the quran.

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.” They said, “Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?” He [Allah] said, “Indeed, I know that which you do not know." [Quran 2:30]

When Allah, the Most Exalted, wanted to create Adam

He informed His angels of that. They asked Him the reason behind that, because they knew that the sons of Adam

would cause corruption and shed blood, and they would disobey Allah and disbelieve in Him. He told them that there were reasons for the creation of Adam

which they did not know.

Human beings have free will. We have the ultimate choice to either obey or disobey Allah. Allah SWT DISLIKES the evil in the legislative sharia sense but he WILLS for a world that contains evil.

Verily, We created man from a drop of mingled sperm so that We may test him; and therefore We made him hearing and seeing. We have indeed showed him the way, now he be grateful or ungrateful. (76:3)

Test will be held for all persons, believers and non‑believers alike. Test presupposes that the man is not predestined to go to Paradise or Hell, as some groups of the Christians and the majority of the Muslims suppose. If our place in the hereafter is predetermined, then why should we be given orders to do this and not to do that?

The test which we are to undergo is not meant to add to the knowledge of God. Although God knows everything, it still is necessary that all men and women be put to test so that the true form of God's justice and mercy may emerge on the Day of Judgement.

If God were to send all persons to Paradise or Hell according to His own knowledge without putting them to test for their beliefs and deeds, then those sent to Hell could rightly complain that why were they being punished without any sin on their part while others enjoyed bliss of Paradise without any good deed in their credit? So in order to uphold the principle of justice and fairness, it was necessary for God to test all persons before sending them to Hell or Paradise.

Therefore Gods wrath is far from absurd. It is fair and just as he is Al - Hakam: the one who always delivers justice.

 

[TheManWhoIsAlive]

There is a fundamental flaw in permise 4 5 and your conclusion.

Allah has the ability to create a world without evil however he chose not to this is explicitly stated in the quran.

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.” They said, “Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?” He [Allah] said, “Indeed, I know that which you do not know." [Quran 2:30]

When Allah, the Most Exalted, wanted to create Adam

He informed His angels of that. They asked Him the reason behind that, because they knew that the sons of Adam

would cause corruption and shed blood, and they would disobey Allah and disbelieve in Him. He told them that there were reasons for the creation of Adam

which they did not know.

Human beings have free will. We have the ultimate choice to either obey or disobey Allah. Allah SWT DISLIKES the evil in the legislative sharia sense but he WILLS for a world that contains evil.

Verily, We created man from a drop of mingled sperm so that We may test him; and therefore We made him hearing and seeing. We have indeed showed him the way, now he be grateful or ungrateful. (76:3)

Test will be held for all persons, believers and non‑believers alike. Test presupposes that the man is not predestined to go to Paradise or Hell, as some groups of the Christians and the majority of the Muslims suppose. If our place in the hereafter is predetermined, then why should we be given orders to do this and not to do that?

The test which we are to undergo is not meant to add to the knowledge of God. Although God knows everything, it still is necessary that all men and women be put to test so that the true form of God's justice and mercy may emerge on the Day of Judgement.

If God were to send all persons to Paradise or Hell according to His own knowledge without putting them to test for their beliefs and deeds, then those sent to Hell could rightly complain that why were they being punished without any sin on their part while others enjoyed bliss of Paradise without any good deed in their credit? So in order to uphold the principle of justice and fairness, it was necessary for God to test all persons before sending them to Hell or Paradise.

Therefore Gods wrath is far from absurd. It is fair and just as he is Al - Hakam: the one who always delivers justice.

I get the concept of tests and punishment and agree with it.

However the wrath just doesn't make sense to me. What's the point if, even if one uses their free will, God already knows what they'd do?

What's the point of the test either? Are we just existing as a simulated experiment or something? What's the point?

 

[Keep it a boqol]

I get the concept of tests and punishment and agree with it.

However the wrath just doesn't make sense to me. What's the point if, even if one uses their free will, God already knows what they'd do?

What's the point of the test either? Are we just existing as a simulated experiment or something? What's the point?

read the last bit i wrote in the first reply

Test will be held for all persons, believers and non‑believers alike. Test presupposes that the man is not predestined to go to Paradise or Hell, as some groups of the Christians and the majority of the Muslims suppose. If our place in the hereafter is predetermined, then why should we be given orders to do this and not to do that?

The test which we are to undergo is not meant to add to the knowledge of God. Although God knows everything, it still is necessary that all men and women be put to test so that the true form of God's justice and mercy may emerge on the Day of Judgement.

If God were to send all persons to Paradise or Hell according to His own knowledge without putting them to test for their beliefs and deeds, then those sent to Hell could rightly complain that why were they being punished without any sin on their part while others enjoyed bliss of Paradise without any good deed in their credit? So in order to uphold the principle of justice and fairness, it was necessary for God to test all persons before sending them to Hell or Paradise.

Therefore Gods wrath is far from absurd. It is fair and just as he is Al - Hakam: the one who always delivers justice.

 

[al-Mu'tamid المعتمد]

I get the concept of tests and punishment and agree with it.

However the wrath just doesn't make sense to me. What's the point if, even if one uses their free will, God already knows what they'd do?

What's the point of the test either? Are we just existing as a simulated experiment or something? What's the point?

Because you yourself will be a witness to the actions that lead you to where Allah will send you. Wouldn't it be strange to be created and thrown headlong into the fire without proper clarification. Even if one was explained as to what he did in his life, they still would be bewildered as to what got them in this state.

When Iblees did not prostate as Allah commanded and arrogantly elevated himself. Allah promised that He would fill up hellfire with him and those who follow him. Therefore as one follows the arrogance of Shaitan and dies in this way would not his abode be but the hellfire?

إِنَّمَا يُؤْمِنُ بِـَايَـتِنَا الَّذِينَ إِذَا ذُكِّرُواْ بِهَا خَرُّواْ سُجَّداً وَسَبَّحُواْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّهِمْ وَهُمْ لاَ يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ​

Only those believe in Our Ayat, who, when they are reminded of them, fall down prostrate, and glorify the praises of their Lord, and they are not proud.
32:15

So one only has two options either believe in Allah and His messenger and Allah will forgive them their sins and admit into Paradise. Or reject his verses and continue chasing this Dunya only to be caught by the Angel of Death and thrown into the blaze. As some are not convinced with this happening after they die then I say as it states in the Qur'an.

​

قُلِ انتَظِرُواْ إِنَّا مُنتَظِرُونَ​

"Wait. Indeed, we [also] are waiting."
06:158​

 

[Liiban Ali]

test which we are to undergo is not meant to add to the knowledge of God. Although God knows everything, it still is necessary that all men and women be put to test so that the true form of God's justice and mercy may emerge on the Day of Judgement.

The true form of Allah's justice and mercy will emerge on the day of judgement as the kafir burns in hell after doubting and becoming a kafir when he spent 40 years before being muslim. It was predetermined and him burning in hell is predetermined. Serves him right, he should have done something outside Allah's knowledge of the future and saved himself.

 

[Sajid]

The true form of Allah's justice and mercy will emerge on the day of judgement as the kafir burns in hell after doubting and becoming a kafir when he spent 40 years before being muslim. It was predetermined and him burning in hell is predetermined. Serves him right, he should have done something outside Allah's knowledge of the future and saved himself.

وَلَنَبۡلُوَنَّكُم بِشَيۡءٖ مِّنَ ٱلۡخَوۡفِ وَٱلۡجُوعِ وَنَقۡصٖ مِّنَ ٱلۡأَمۡوَٰلِ وَٱلۡأَنفُسِ وَٱلثَّمَرَٰتِۗ وَبَشِّرِ ٱلصَّٰبِرِينَ

you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.).

So if you think you will live without a test think again.


Allah SWT tested this guy to see if he is truly can control himself or will just fall like most people.

 

[Liiban Ali]

Allah SWT tested this guy to see if he is truly can control himself or will just fall like most people

My point is, why is Allah testing him when our guy (from the example) would fail the test anyways?
Allah knows what will happen and what will come right? Since Allah knows the future, the future is set in stone basically. Everything is fated to be. Whatever someone does, Allah knew it would happen. Allah knows the guy would doubt at 40 years of age and become a disbeliever. Allah knows when the guy dies as a disbeliever, that he would send him to hell.

I can take it a step further. Since Allah knows the future, Allah knows the actions He himself would take. Allah knows at the Day of Judgement that the prophet Muhammad would ask for شفاعة. And Allah would accept. Allah cannot refuse the prophet in the Day of judgement. So Allah is not all powerful.
Everything that is happening, Allah has no power to make it not happen the way it is predestined to be. If tomorrow morning Yahya in Minnesota is predestined to eat sabaayad, he will eat sabaayad and not canjeero. Allah cant change that. This scenario is the same as a machine that does specific tasks at specific times with no external powers interfering or the machine malfunctioning. And the machine cannot do otherwise.

Writing this just made me aware of how messed up it feels to know what you will do (since I assume Allah has self-awareness) and not be able to change it.

That being said, if you are honest to yourself and I communicated well, and if everything I wrote is right, then you should realize after this that Islam does not seem sensical.

Feel free to point out where am not right.

 

[Sajid]

My point is, why is Allah testing him when our guy (from the example) would fail the test anyways?
Allah knows what will happen and what will come right? Since Allah knows the future, the future is set in stone basically. Everything is fated to be. Whatever someone does, Allah knew it would happen. Allah knows the guy would doubt at 40 years of age and become a disbeliever. Allah knows when the guy dies as a disbeliever, that he would send him to hell.

I can take it a step further. Since Allah knows the future, Allah knows the actions He himself would take. Allah knows at the Day of Judgement that the prophet Muhammad would ask for شفاعة. And Allah would accept. Allah cannot refuse the prophet in the Day of judgement. So Allah is not all powerful.
Everything that is happening, Allah has no power to make it not happen the way it is predestined to be. If tomorrow morning Yahya in Minnesota is predestined to eat sabaayad, he will eat sabaayad and not canjeero. Allah cant change that. This scenario is the same as a machine that does specific tasks at specific times with no external powers interfering or the machine malfunctioning. And the machine cannot do otherwise.

Writing this just made me aware of how messed up it feels to know what you will do (since I assume Allah has self-awareness) and not be able to change it.

That being said, if you are honest to yourself and I communicated well, and if everything I wrote is right, then you should realize after this that Islam does not seem sensical.

Feel free to point out where am not right.

Ok let me give you an example.

A teacher and students started the new year school.

Some students are good and doing their homeworks and study hard and other students go home and play All day and don't study.

In the night before the exam the teacher took a paper and made two lines and wrote in first line the names of the students who will pass the test and in the second line the names of the students who will fail the test.

And after the exam it's apeared that what the teacher wrote become a reality.

The question here does the teacher was unjust or it was the fault of the students to fail.

 

[Liiban Ali]

Ok let me give you an example.

A teacher and students started the new year school.

Some students are good and doing their homeworks and study hard and other students go home and play All day and don't study.

In the night before the exam the teacher took a paper and made two lines and wrote in first line the names of the students who will pass the test and in the second line the names of the students who will fail the test.

And after the exam it's apeared that what the teacher wrote become a reality.

The question here does the teacher was unjust or it was the fault of the students to fail.

This scenario is not the same as in the case for Allah since the teacher is making a prediction. For Allah, He created you and brought you to this world and most importantly, He knows what will happen. He knows that the murtad at 40 will burn in hell even when that murtad is born. Its two different things.

 

[Liiban Ali]

Also there are outliers, and students who could have gotten some help and cheated at the test lol

 

[Sajid]

Allah created you to worship him.

He gave you the tools to live.

He gave you the tools to worship him and the tools to disobey him.

He showed you the path to hell and the path to heaven.

And left you to choose.

He told you the path to heaven is very hard and the path to hell is very easy.

He told you that there will be the day of judgement and it's either heaven or hell.

To this point it's clear.


Now Allah is god and knows everything the past the future.

But he didn't reveal it to you so he doesn't influence your choices.

Did Allah gave شفاعة to the prophet yes because the prophet choose that from different choices.

All prophets had their time to choose and they choose that Allah destroy Thier nations.

But prophet Muhammad choose forgiveness.

Does that mean Allah is weak?

Absolutely no there is a line between weakness and justice.

Allah have the power to make all of us angels but he gave YOU the choice.

 

[Liiban Ali]

Allah created you to worship him.

He gave you the tools to live.

He gave you the tools to worship him and the tools to disobey him.

He showed you the path to hell and the path to heaven.

And left you to choose.

He told you the path to heaven is very hard and the path to hell is very easy.

He told you that there will be the day of judgement and it's either heaven or hell.

To this point it's clear.


Now Allah is god and knows everything the past the future.

But he didn't reveal it to you so he doesn't influence your choices.

Did Allah gave شفاعة to the prophet yes because the prophet choose that from different choices.

All prophets had their time to choose and they choose that Allah destroy Thier nations.

But prophet Muhammad choose forgiveness.

Does that mean Allah is weak?

Absolutely no there is a line between weakness and justice.

Allah have the power to make all of us angels but he gave YOU the choice.

You didn't respond to what I said. Good luck and genuinely ponder on all I said before. You can always point out to what I said that is not true. I will try to respond after you either agree or point out where am not right.

 

[Liiban Ali]

I answered that question on the teacher and students because I thought you were trying to respond by better understanding my stance on some matter.

 

[Sajid]

I answered that question on the teacher and students because I thought you were trying to respond by better understanding my stance on some matter.

Did you brush you teeth when you wake up in the morning?

 

[Liiban Ali]

Did you brush you teeth when you wake up in the morning?

I was making sure you understood that the reason I even bothered answering your questions on the teacher and students was because it had something to do with what I was talking about. Granted it might have been stating the obvious .

 

[Sajid]

I was making sure you understood that the reason I even bothered answering your questions on the teacher and students was because it had something to do with what I was talking about. Granted it might have been stating the obvious .

Were you born a non Muslim or got brainwashed

 

[Rationale]

My point is, why is Allah testing him when our guy (from the example) would fail the test anyways?
Allah knows what will happen and what will come right? Since Allah knows the future, the future is set in stone basically. Everything is fated to be. Whatever someone does, Allah knew it would happen. Allah knows the guy would doubt at 40 years of age and become a disbeliever. Allah knows when the guy dies as a disbeliever, that he would send him to hell.

I can take it a step further. Since Allah knows the future, Allah knows the actions He himself would take. Allah knows at the Day of Judgement that the prophet Muhammad would ask for شفاعة. And Allah would accept. Allah cannot refuse the prophet in the Day of judgement. So Allah is not all powerful.
Everything that is happening, Allah has no power to make it not happen the way it is predestined to be. If tomorrow morning Yahya in Minnesota is predestined to eat sabaayad, he will eat sabaayad and not canjeero. Allah cant change that. This scenario is the same as a machine that does specific tasks at specific times with no external powers interfering or the machine malfunctioning. And the machine cannot do otherwise.

Writing this just made me aware of how messed up it feels to know what you will do (since I assume Allah has self-awareness) and not be able to change it.

That being said, if you are honest to yourself and I communicated well, and if everything I wrote is right, then you should realize after this that Islam does not seem sensical.

Feel free to point out where am not right.

First of all one of the core principiles of Islam is that, Allah is almighty and an eternal being beyond our conprehension. God doesn't ask you to understand him since it would be impossible to do so.

Your disbelieve seem to rise from the failure of comprehending the reasons behind Allah's actions. Something Quran states as impossible to understand.

“Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, The Alive, The Self-subsisting; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can take along (shafaa’ah) someone but by His permission? He knows that which is before and after them. And they cannot comprehend anything of His knowledge save whatever He Himself lets them know. He dominates the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both is not difficult for Him. He is The Sublime, The Great.” (Al-Baqarah/ The Cow2:255) ”

Allah created you and demands your worship and obedience. Allah doesn't ask you to fully comprehend him or his actions. If you heed this call eternal life and paradise are your rewards. If you are disobedient and reject Allah you will succumb to the pits of hellfire.

In his wisdom the Almighty asks all of his creation. Do you want free will or not. Those creatures that chose free will, them awaits tests and tribulations.

Also we don't believe in predetermined outcomes in the sense you seem to. Just because Allah knows how our trial will end, doesn't mean it isn't our own actions that will determine that outcome.

I can take it a step further. Since Allah knows the future, Allah knows the actions He himself would take. Allah knows at the Day of Judgement that the prophet Muhammad would ask for شفاعة. And Allah would accept. Allah cannot refuse the prophet in the Day of judgement. So Allah is not all powerful.
Everything that is happening, Allah has no power to make it not happen the way it is predestined to be. If tomorrow morning Yahya in Minnesota is predestined to eat sabaayad, he will eat sabaayad and not canjeero. Allah cant change that. This scenario is the same as a machine that does specific tasks at specific times with no external powers interfering or the machine malfunctioning. And the machine cannot do otherwise.

As what comes to your analogy of Yahya; Allah knew Yahya will eat sabaayad tomorrow, what we believe is that Allah provided Yahya a Sabaayad but it was Yahya that decided to eat the sabaayad, but Allah knew it long before it happened.

Writing this just made me aware of how messed up it feels to know what you will do (since I assume Allah has self-awareness) and not be able to change it.

Once again this rose from your misunderstanding of the word "Almighty". There is absolutely nothing Allah can't do.

To summarize:
Allah is almighty and beyond our comprehension.
Allah is all knowing the wise, god gave us free will, while he knows the actions we will take, the thoughts and decisions we will make, it doesn't mean it wasn't us out of our own volition who took them.

Our god is capable of what ever our puny imagination can produce and much more, there is no greater insult than comparing him to a powerless machine. Repent while you still can!!

 

[Taij4an]

My point is, why is Allah testing him when our guy (from the example) would fail the test anyways?
Allah knows what will happen and what will come right? Since Allah knows the future, the future is set in stone basically. Everything is fated to be. Whatever someone does, Allah knew it would happen. Allah knows the guy would doubt at 40 years of age and become a disbeliever. Allah knows when the guy dies as a disbeliever, that he would send him to hell.

I can take it a step further. Since Allah knows the future, Allah knows the actions He himself would take. Allah knows at the Day of Judgement that the prophet Muhammad would ask for شفاعة. And Allah would accept. Allah cannot refuse the prophet in the Day of judgement. So Allah is not all powerful.
Everything that is happening, Allah has no power to make it not happen the way it is predestined to be. If tomorrow morning Yahya in Minnesota is predestined to eat sabaayad, he will eat sabaayad and not canjeero. Allah cant change that. This scenario is the same as a machine that does specific tasks at specific times with no external powers interfering or the machine malfunctioning. And the machine cannot do otherwise.

Writing this just made me aware of how messed up it feels to know what you will do (since I assume Allah has self-awareness) and not be able to change it.

That being said, if you are honest to yourself and I communicated well, and if everything I wrote is right, then you should realize after this that Islam does not seem sensical.

Feel free to point out where am not right.

1.The test is not for Allah it is for you, before you were Man Allah asked all creation if they would like to take on the amanaah which is a test, all of the creation denied it except man and jinn, the reason for this is to give man a choice on what he wants to do, Man chose to have this test.
The test is, do good get good, do bad get bad, Allah did this test for us, so we can chose to go jannah, but we must pay a price to get there, or if we fail then we go hell, Or we could not take the test and be free of responsibility, it was our own choice.
2.Allah does not need to test us, Allah never said he needs to test us, Allah wanted to test us, and we are the ones who asked for it, if we didn't Allah wouldn't have tested us.
3.If Allah forced us not to take the test because he already knew the results, than that would be infringing on our free will to chose what we want, and that would be unfair, it would be the same as stopping someone from enacting his free will and chance to do something because I know he won't actually reach it, if this were the case it would be unfair as Allah is forcing his will on us and not allowing people to chose jannah. So it is a mercy to us
4. Allah knows what will happen, why should Allah stop the test just because he knows what will happen? The hidden assumption here is that Allah is doing the test for himself, which he is not, man must go through the test as they wanted it and they asked for it and must be judged for their own decisions, it is a mercy to mankind
5.You do not understand how qadr works.
You said
, Allah knows the actions He himself would take. Allah knows at the Day of Judgement that the prophet Muhammad would ask for شفاعة. And Allah would accept. Allah cannot refuse the prophet in the Day of judgement. So Allah is not all powerful.
Allah accepts out of his choice, he is not forced to make the choice, he knows he will make the choice, thats it, Allah could have chosen to reject the dua, it is all in his power to do what he wants, Allah can refuse the prophet sallallahu alayhi wasalam, he just chooses not to

Also, the qadr was written by Allah, Allah determined everything, and Allah knew all of it, if he wanted he could have determined it another way, the qadr is under Allahs command, Allah chose for the qadr to be a certain way and he won't change it because he he doesn't want to, u assume qadr is a separate entitiy from Allah which it isnt. Qadr is a direct showing of Allahs Strength and power, it is not a separate thing it is subject to Allah completely.

Where did you get that Allah cannot change his own actions? Allah is the one who chose do to them in the first place

 

[Liiban Ali]

Your disbelieve seem to rise from the failure of comprehending the reasons behind Allah's actions. Something Quran states as impossible to understand.

My disbelief is because Islam represents reality wrongly.

In his wisdom the Almighty asks all of his creation. Do you want free will or not. Those creatures that chose free will, them awaits tests and tribulations.

All I know about Allah asking creations are the one in suratul Ahzab:
[Indeed, We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they ˹all˺ declined to bear it, being fearful of it. But humanity assumed it, ˹for˺ they are truly wrongful ˹to themselves˺ and ignorant ˹of the consequences˺,]

and suratul Araf:
[And ˹remember˺ when your Lord brought forth from the loins of the children of Adam their descendants and had them testify regarding themselves. ˹Allah asked,˺ “Am I not your Lord?” They replied, “Yes, You are! We testify.” ˹He cautioned,˺ “Now you have no right to say on Judgment Day, ‘We were not aware of this.’]

Those two ayahs came to my head, but I don’t really know how it is related to what we are talking about. The one I understand better is the one in suratul Araf because I don’t know what Amanah or trust is meant. There might be some Hadith or ayah that talks about what you said here but idk.

As what comes to your analogy of Yahya; Allah knew Yahya will eat sabaayad tomorrow, what we believe is that Allah provided Yahya a Sabaayad but it was Yahya that decided to eat the sabaayad, but Allah knew it long before it happened.

Wasn’t it not fated that Yahya would decide to eat sabaayad? Also Allah knows Yahya would eat Sabaayad as you said long before it happened. We have to agree that Allah also knows Yahya would DECIDE to eat sabayad. You see? Yahya decided to eat sabayad but still he could not have decided anything else at that point in time.

To summarize:
Allah is almighty and beyond our comprehension.
Allah is all knowing the wise, god gave us free will, while he knows the actions we will take, the thoughts and decisions we will make, it doesn't mean it wasn't us out of our own volition who took them.

God gave us free will? And then you say that Allah knows the decisions before the action, the action and thoughts. So how can it be out of our own volition to take them when we can’t do otherwise because Allah knows we will decide to do the action that Allah knows we will do at that point in time?