Sudan Conflict Rooted In Colonialism

[DR OSMAN]

Sudan like every african country is artifically created, it didn't exist prior to colonialism. The north should've been put with the other 'falaheen' farmers of egypt and in particular south egypt. They share much more in common under the egyptian class system which is the 'fellahin' peasant farmers, the mulkiyeen those who became educated under colonialism, and the qibtiyeen, the pre-existing educated class pre-colonialism. Egypt still suffers from this class war.

Where-as Sudan they cut off parts of Chad which western sudan share more in common with. They cut off south sudan from Uganda. The eastern Sudan seem like the only group that is a stand-alone ethnicity, because they don't belong with Eritrea-Ethiopia.

Then you have Sudan post colonial where they were stuck with a military junta who had independent power to control a puppet civilian govt. The Omar Bashir kept the military junta power and eliminated the civilian puppet govt and he was smart by ensuring military junta are split and not centralized so he can use one wing against another untill the unthinkable happened the two wings(north and west) got rid of him.

Reminds me of 91 opposition faction in Somalia who couldn't agree post siyad barre in 91, now these two opposition generals(west and north) can't agree to power and enjoying a new civil war. These guys should've agreed on post-omar future way before they took military action against him, not leave this important political settlement post omar. They should've Let the system exist and work and only replace it once you agreed to the new system before taking any military action.

The struggle between the west-north general isn't playin out thru thin-air, their is on-ground hostilities between the two communities. As the north views the west sudanese as uncivilized and similar to the hotu in rwanda or the hawiye in Somalia, while the west views the north as concentrating power within themselves the 'fellahin' communities who should be apart of egypt.

Every colonial country has either pre-existing ruling class or a ruling class developed thru colonialism, this social layer exists in all colonial nations, whether it's asia-africa-mid-east. Plus their borders are usually artificial and never existed prior and their nationalism would be very fragile or weak

 

[DR OSMAN]

Somali diplomats posted overseas need a guiding policy to ensure their foreign policy doesn't come down to 50/50 backing a horse locally without a fundamental and sound understanding on the following.

1. Pre-colonial realities of colonial countries

2. Colonial age and who was given power, was it hordes or the ruling class. If they were all naked, who was selected among the naked

3.Post colonial reality >>>> was the system copy-paste from colonials where they became like the colonials they hated such as Strong men n weak system, minority rule majority rights, highly centralized, etc.

4. Economic disparities between regions in a country as this is usually a sign of 'punishment'

5. Foreign actors involved and if their backing horses without any fundamental understanding of local dynamics on their short or long term interest(resources, air, sea, land, location) interests.

 

[DR OSMAN]

The foreign actors who are involved in any colonial country with conflict are not responsible, they only exploit or back a horse, the on-ground conditions are down to local dynamics which have historical, political, economic roots at ethnic or tribal layer.

They simply side with a horse balancing their local interest with their foreign. Blaming foreign actors is very lazy thinking. Everything local needs fixing so foreigners cannot exploit or back their horse. Foreigners only intervene when they fear other foreign powers will.

They are not responsible for the shit show locally. Even the resource argument by locals saying foreigners want resources is very short-sighted, they can't exploit resources untill their horse is in power and award contracts to that foreign power as a 'gratitude'.

Their not going to see thru their resource interest in a place that is a war zone, that is high risk. If foreigner cannot secure his resource interest, his next game plan is to ensure no foreigner can either and make it a warzone. When a place is a warzone, it means no foreigner wins

 

[DR OSMAN]

Chad-Mali which western sudanese report to the great sultanates of the Moors and where the timbuktu libraries of the Moors were, they are not going to tolerate power ceded to a bunch of farming peasant cultures in north sudan who are merely a falaheen extension from egypt.

Dad hadarad soo arkay thrown into an artificial nation where their isolated from power is unsustainable especially to a peasantry farming culture extension from egypt in north sudan.

I mean lets be realistic their not even the qibtiyeen class the pre-colonial ruling class of egypt nor even colonial selected ruling class the mulkiyeen when egypt was seen as new paris of africa. Then these falaheen peasants were given power in egypt like abdelnasser-sadat and now the peasants rule in egypt till today. Even the brotherhood is from this falaheen peasant syed qutub

 

[Nilotic]

The British decision to put South Sudan with the North was one of the most immoral, criminal and destructive crimes of the European imperial powers; we should have been put with Kenya, and Uganda should have been part of that as well.

 

[DR OSMAN]

The British decision to put South Sudan with the North was one of the most immoral, criminal and destructive crimes of the European imperial powers; we should have been put with Kenya, and Uganda should have been part of that as well.

I do fear tho highly tribalized ethnic groups whether Somali or South Sudan, add a 'herder' element is a recipe for disaster even if they had a nation to their own. We see South Sudan mess go back down to pre-existing stronger tribal identities and the south sudan identity is merely a 'costume' put on, just like somali identity is merely a 'costume' and the beast pre-existing clan or tribes are far stronger. Societies like south sudan n somalis need a 'unique system' crafted to fit our local realities, we cannot copy n paste from the west, it will COLLAPSE.

 

[Nilotic]

I do fear tho highly tribalized ethnic groups whether Somali or South Sudan, add a 'herder' element is a recipe for disaster even if they had a nation to their own. We see South Sudan mess go back down to pre-existing stronger tribal identities and the south sudan identity is merely a 'costume' put on, just like somali identity is merely a 'costume' and the beast pre-existing clan or tribes are far stronger. Societies like south sudan n somalis need a 'unique system' crafted to fit our local realities, we cannot copy n paste from the west, it will COLLAPSE.

Yeah, our identity is essentially a recent by-product of a struggle for survival and territorial integrity; the 64 ethnic groups that comprise South Sudan don't really identify with each other, so it will be very difficult to build a National identity that isn't almost entirely contingent on responding to external threats.

Millions of lives could have been saved if the British had elided us with our own kin in Kenya; this is not to say that there wouldn't have been any problems, however, I think it would have been a more natural fit in racial, religious and cultural terms.

The creation of necessary (but now destructive) armed resistance movements very likely wouldn't have been created if we were part of Kenya.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Nilotic the south sudanese speak different languages right? so their really different ethnicities at the same level like ethiopia language federalism or kenya where it's social system is at an ethnicity level. Somali is 1 ethnicity but many tribal groups and the Somali ethnicity is only strong when foreigner r present but that's even weakening. It's like the Dinka if the Dinka became a nation, would the clans within it fight 4 power? The problem is 'pre existing' identities and the question of 'power' and this copy n paste western system is only causing 'a race to power' to emerge.

At a social level there isn't usually much beef untill the question of power is mentioned.

 

[Nilotic]

@Nilotic the south sudanese speak different languages right?

Yes, we have dozens of different languages, however, Juba Arabic is the lingua franca of South Sudan; I hope to see Juba Arabic phased out in due course

so their really different ethnicities at the same level like ethiopia language federalism or kenya where it's social system is at an ethnicity level.

A lot of the ethnic groups in South Sudan are essentially indistinguishable, like the Karo group; there are a dozen or so sections in this confederation of sorts, but they really are just one people.

The Eastern Equatorian tribes are also very closely related.

Somali is 1 ethnicity but many tribal groups and the Somali ethnicity is only strong when foreigner r present but that's even weakening. It's like the Dinka if the Dinka became a nation, would the clans within it fight 4 power?

With the sole exception of the Dinka in Lakes State, most Dinka sections don't have noteworthy sectarian conflicts.

Also, Dr. John Garang was from my clan (a small section) but the larger Dinka sections accepted him as leader. It was the other ethnic groups that were at times understandably more opposed.

The problem is 'pre existing' identities and the question of 'power' and this copy n paste western system is only causing 'a race to power' to emerge.

At a social level there isn't usually much beef untill the question of power is mentioned.

I would agree with that; our natural Nations are our ethnic groups and these artificial creations (Nation-States) present far more challenges.

 

[DR OSMAN]

Yes, we have dozens of different languages, however, Juba Arabic is the lingua franca of South Sudan; I hope to see Juba Arabic phased out in due course



A lot of the ethnic groups in South Sudan are essentially indistinguishable, like the Karo group; there are a dozen or so sections in this confederation of sorts, but they really are just one people.

The Eastern Equatorian tribes are also very closely related.



With the sole exception of the Dinka in Lakes State, most Dinka sections don't have noteworthy sectarian conflicts.

Also, Dr. John Garang was from my clan (a small section) but the larger Dinka sections accepted him as leader. It was the other ethnic groups that were at times understandably more opposed.



I would agree with that; our natural Nations are our ethnic groups and these artificial creations (Nation-States) present far more challenges.

Cultural difference between herders vs farming isn't present? or herders vs herders across language line or farmers vs farmer due to language? is the union of south sudan superficial 'phenotype' and they are as separate as separate can be. Phenotype borders dont work when the question of POWER is on the table. This idea u look the same doesnt mean u think the same due to different occupations, different histories(especially if they dont know ur group adding positivity to their group), different languages.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Nilotic as africans we need a grand conference to bring together historians, academics, esteemed cultural leaders, politicians. We need to separate the council on occupation. Herders, Farmers, Coastal, Pre-existing kingdoms prior to colonialism. We need to discuss how do we view 'power' and the state.

Do we view power/state as a way to dominate and rule others or do we see it as owned by the ppl thru their taxes and the leader is a servant. Then we need to look at our various cultures to see how to craft all our systems to fit in-line with traditional african way of governance. We must accept that copying n pasting colonial systems and putting a black face on it and not a white face prior is unworkable.

Colonials theft of resources is wat african cry about but what is far worse is how the colonials stole our minds and we cant even craft systems to fit our cultural context and we merely copy what he left behind and BEHAVE like he did with power

 

[Nilotic]

Cultural difference between herders vs farming isn't present? or herders vs herders across language line or farmers vs farmer due to language?

There are clear diffferences between pastoralists and farmers in South Sudan and this has often been a cause for clashes, however, I think it's a lot easier to manage these dynamics when compared to the unbridgeable racial, religious and cultural divides between the North & South.

is the union of south sudan superficial 'phenotype' and they are as separate as separate can be. Phenotype borders dont work when the question of POWER is on the table.

The 'Nation' is definitely artificial, but we are mostly closely related ethnic groups with common origins and similar cultures.

This idea u look the same doesnt mean u think the same due to different occupations, different histories(especially if they dont know ur group adding positivity to their group), different languages.

South Sudan is essentially a Nilotic ethno-State, so there are very few differences between us; we obviously need to create a more equitable political system and we shouldn't be any different to Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania.

 

[DR OSMAN]

There are clear diffferences between pastoralists and farmers in South Sudan and this has often been a cause for clashes, however, I think it's a lot easier to manage these dynamics when compared to the unbridgeable racial, religious and cultural divides between the North & South.



The 'Nation' is definitely artificial, but we are mostly closely related ethnic groups with common origins and similar cultures.



South Sudan is essentially a Nilotic ethno-State, so there are very few differences between us; we obviously need to create a more equitable political system and we shouldn't be any different to Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania.

Phenotype unity is imposed on us by colonials doesn't mean it's reality on the ground. I wouldn't rush to think it's a solution, just becuz the world view u as nilotic, doesnt mean internally it's true becuz these phenotype are impossible to foster unity when their is huge language barrier to begin with, u couldn't even communicate so it led to seperation and other nilotes shud naturally view u as foreign as foreign gets when there is no foreign 'element' to unite u like north sudan or westerners or other africans.

It's a very weak form of social unity phenotype, becuz it wasn't developed locally it came to them from abroad by european 19th century psuedo-scientists. Even if u can communicate, if their no shared social unity developed from within for centuries, its impossible also.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Nilotic we must remember as africans we are discussing a 'state' which in itself is a foreign concept and it's discussing power over ppl along a geographic territory with an ethnic/religious/cultural dimension.

If their no shared history in a state prior to colonialism, it's not locally grown but foreign imposed. We must be careful not to confuse how the world or others view u to foster your social unity becuz once those foreign or others are gone, u will fall back to local dynamics which has been around for a longer time period and created their sense of identity.

Add the potent issue of 'power' and u have a very dangerous mix of foreign imposed system, foreign imposed identity system that has a non-existant historical reality

 

[Nilotic]

Phenotype unity is imposed on us by colonials doesn't mean it's reality on the ground. I wouldn't rush to think it's a solution, just becuz the world view u as nilotic, doesnt mean internally it's true becuz these phenotype are impossible to foster unity when their is huge language barrier to begin with, u couldn't even communicate so it led to seperation and other nilotes shud naturally will view u as foreign as foreign gets when there is no foreign 'element' to unite u like north sudan or westerners or other africans.

It's a very weak form of social unity phenotype, becuz it wasn't developed locally it came to them from abroad by european 19th century psued-scientists.

This isn't just a matter of phenotype, mate; we literally have the same cultures; have the same names, myths of common ancestors; and languages that are so incredibly similar that I could learn Nuer or Shilluk with ease.

The Nilotes have every reason to be together; the decision of the British to put us with completely unrelated populations has deprived us of half a century of soul searching, identity formation and State building.

 

[DR OSMAN]

This isn't just a matter of phenotype, mate; we literally have the same cultures; have the same names, myths of common ancestors; and languages that are so incredibly similar that I could learn Nuer or Shilluk with ease.

The Nilotes have every reason to be together; the decision of the British to put us with completely unrelated populations has deprived us of half a century of soul searching, identity formation and State building.

Im worried when the issue of power is on the table in south sudan, it will cause a civil war becuz u don't share a history where power was shared between u guys, ur idea of nilotic social relations which let's be honest only came due to 'foreigners' but dont start mixing social relations with power which is a whole another beast.

 

[Nilotic]

@Nilotic we must remember as africans we are discussing a 'state' which in itself is a foreign concept and it's discussing power over ppl along a geographic territory with an ethnic/religious/cultural dimension.

If their no shared history in a state prior to colonialism, it's not locally grown but foreign imposed. We must be careful not to confuse how the world or others view u to foster your social unity becuz once those foreign or others are gone, u will fall back to local dynamics which has been around for a longer time period and created their sense of identity.

Add the potent issue of 'power' and u have a very dangerous mix of foreign imposed system, foreign imposed identity system that has a non-existant historical reality

That's fair, but I don't want a Dinka State; I want something greater than even a Nilotic ethno-State; I want to integrate with our Niger-Congo cousins as well and interact with larger Nations as a single bloc.

Unifiying these groups will continue to be difficult, but reverting back to tribal Nations is regressive and would make us all weaker and more vulnerable.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Nilotic I can understand ur culture well becuz im from a herding culture and I know the nilotes u lived with u wud harm uthru shifta-cattle rustling-etc and fight over pastoral land so u can survive, it's natural to herding environement universally. Either fight or die to preserve ur territory or ur livestocks die. This has shaped our MINDS also, the environment.

We Somalis existed side by side with other clans even who we share a language relation and it created only 'green lines' where we couldn't just go to another clan area and say we will rule u, we share phenotype nonsense kkkkk he will respond 'animals share phenotypes' dont come at me with u animalistic nonsense and he wud say U WILL NOT RULE ME, im FREE MAN.

That's why I want african grand conference to put similar occupation cultures to discuss state solution, Herders can understand Herders due to similar environmental and occupation challenges, farmers with farmers can understand each other on how tending the land will foster caring attitude and land unity. When u add herder/farmer into a nation, ur already in a disaster.

 

[Nilotic]

Im worried when the issue of power is on the table in south sudan, it will cause a civil war becuz u don't share a history where power was shared between u guys, ur idea of nilotic social relations which let's be honest only came due to 'foreigners' but dont start mixing social relations with power which is a whole another beast.

We've already had that war (2013-2018) and I doubt we'll be keen on reprising such a destructive, internecine conflict anytime soon; breaking up into 64 different tribal-based Nation-States is a bad idea.

Most ethnic groups don't even have a history of working together under a unified leadership, so how far do we go with this?

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Nilotic I am saving u the hassle somalia went thru, u guys followed in the same spirit fighting north sudan and uniting yourself on a shared enemy, like we did in 77 uniting on ethio enemy, but when we all came back home, we turns the guns on each other for POWER becuz it was a race, we r nomadic, we view the state as power and if u dont get there first, he will eliminate u, its herder mentality to fight n preserve ur territory where the 'territory' now is STATE POWER.

I know u want to keep south sudan united, i did also with somalia, but wee haad 15 failed national conferences from 1991-2004 before we said 'let every region rule itself' and then we come back to discuss a better somalia thru 'evidence' on regional rule. We agreed its safer to fix different parts in the nation then fix the nation top down. Small steps lead to big steps was guiding philosophy. Small govt build a better bigger govt. So those small tribes is where ur solution is. Tell them to go back to their territories n rule themselves and we will come to discuss SOUTH sudan when we all have something positive at local or regional level.