Somalia ancient aqueducts

[Midas]

I was reading one of those old 19th century articles about somalia. One of them mentions a 9 mile long aqueduct in ruins since people used those stones for their graves. My question is how did we forget this kind of technology was it ? I suspect if you looed all throughout somalia you would find simialr examples like this and or the ajuran. It makes no sense since to create an aqueduct like that requires enormous manpower. I sort of understand why the somali people living in the 19th century said it was the work of a forgotten race. It seems like post 1500s we regressed back millenia. Sort of like the khemr empire and angora wat

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

I was reading one of those old 19th century articles about somalia. One of them mentions a 9 mile long aqueduct in ruins since people used those stones for their graves. My question is how did we forget this kind of technology was it ? I suspect if you looed all throughout somalia you would find simialr examples like this and or the ajuran. It makes no sense since to create an aqueduct like that requires enormous manpower. I sort of understand why the somali people living in the 19th century said it was the work of a forgotten race. It seems like post 1500s we regressed back millenia. Sort of like the khemr empire and angora wat

Regression of tech can happen very very quickly if the chaos reaches a certain threshold.

For example, the people in the Amazon we see as random tribes built one of the most sophisticated civilizations in Meso America and even the world but they fell off very sharply and by three-four generations perhaps they knew nothing of their ancestors' legacy

 

[Midas]

Regression of tech can happen very very quickly if the chaos reaches a certain threshold.

For example, the people in the Amazon we see as random tribes built one of the most sophisticated civilizations in Meso America and even the world but they fell off very sharply and by three-four generations perhaps they knew nothing of their ancestors' legacy

Yeah I was just reading about how aden also under went a simialr decline from a massive city of 80,000 people in the rasulid period(1200-1500) to a 600 person village . Imagine northern somalia which never had cities that big and could revert to pastoralism. I think without aqueducts northern coastal cities simply can't have large sustainable population so when it collapsed the city died.

 

[World]

Yeah I was just reading about how aden also under went a simialr decline from a massive city of 80,000 people in the rasulid period(1200-1500) to a 600 person village . Imagine northern somalia which never had cities that big and could revert to pastoralism. I think without aqueducts northern coastal cities simply can't have large sustainable population so when it collapsed the city died.

The Portuguese had full military control of the Indian Ocean, Red Sea and Persian Gulf for like 150-200 years (1500-1700). They blockaded all Muslim trade from Egypt to Somalia, to the Arabian Peninsula, Persia, India, Swahili coast, Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, China.

Here is what the Portuguese said in the early 17th century:

So the ancient trade links that existed for thousands of years that the urban population of northern Somalia had sustained, thrived, and built itself from were destroyed.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

Yeah I was just reading about how aden also under went a simialr decline from a massive city of 80,000 people in the rasulid period(1200-1500) to a 600 person village . Imagine northern somalia which never had cities that big and could revert to pastoralism. I think without aqueducts northern coastal cities simply can't have large sustainable population so when it collapsed the city died.

I didn't know Aden was so large wow.

The Portuguese had full military control of the Indian Ocean, Red Sea and Persian Gulf for like 150-200 years (1500-1700). They blockaded all Muslim trade from Egypt to Somalia, to the Arabian Peninsula, Persia, India, Swahili coast, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, China.

Here is what the Portuguese said in the early 17th century:
View attachment 330327

So the ancient trade links that existed for thousands of years that the urban population of northern Somalia had sustained, thrived, and built itself from were destroyed.

Portuguese achieved destruction of a international trade system that had been undisturbed since at least 3000 years ago!

 

[Midas]

I didn't know Aden was so large wow.

Portuguese achieved destruction of a international trade system that had been undisturbed since at least 3000 years ago!

It wasn't necessarily them monopolizing trade. A big reason is the colonization of America's shifted world trade. Then there was the 17th ice age which caused the entire world to almost collapse every empire had rebellions and several of them actually collapsed. These I think where the main reasons for the red sea decline.

 

[World]

It wasn't necessarily them monopolizing trade. A big reason is the colonization of America's shifted world trade. Then there was the 17th ice age which caused the entire world to almost collapse every empire had rebellions and several of them actually collapsed. These I think where the main reasons for the red sea decline.

Lol, no you just have swallowed European propaganda.

You said it wasn’t necessarily them monopolising trade? Who is talking about trade here? They captured ships belonging to Indian Muslims returning from Hajj and executed all of the men, and enslaved all the women. They sacked towns in Somalia, Yemen, Egypt, Sudan and Saudi Arabia. Why are you defending them and whitewashing their crimes? In the eyes of the Portuguese, this was a holy crusade against Muslims and they intended to financially cripple Mamluks to give up Jerusalem.

The ancient Silk Road maritime route connected Africa, Middle East, South Asia and East Asia through trade. We are the world, and accounted for the the vast majority of trade so how can it shift away from us by the European colonisation of the Americas? We didn’t need
them to begin with.

The Europeans actively pushed addictive opium drugs on the Chinese population so that they would become drug addicts. Do you know why? To balance the trade deficit. There was tremendous demand for Chinese products in Europe, which they paid for in gold and silver but there was no demand for anything the Europeans produced in China.

 

[Midas]

Lol, no you just have swallowed European propaganda.

You said it wasn’t necessarily them monopolising trade? Who is talking about trade here? They captured ships belonging to Indian Muslims returning from Hajj and executed all of the men, and enslaved all the women. They sacked towns in Somalia, Yemen, Egypt, Sudan and Saudi Arabia. Why are you defending them and whitewashing their crimes? In the eyes of the Portuguese, this was a holy crusade against Muslims and they intended to financially cripple Mamluks to give up Jerusalem.

The ancient Silk Road maritime route connected Africa, Middle East, South Asia and East Asia through trade. We are the world, and accounted for the the vast majority of trade so how can it shift away from us by the European colonisation of the Americas? We didn’t need
them to begin with.

The Europeans actively pushed addictive opium drugs on the Chinese population so that they would become drug addicts. Do you know why? To balance the trade deficit. There was tremendous demand for Chinese products in Europe, which they paid for in gold and silver but there was no demand for anything the Europeans produced in China.

First of all I have no idea wtf your talking about. Where did I justify anything they did? This is not the 19th century Europeans did not have the technology to overpower everyone . What the proturgese did is threaten the ports and tax all the trade and sink the ships of anybody who opposed them. Even this control wss only possible for a couple decades.
Second who do you think was buying the goods from this trade? The Europeans . That's why they wanted to find another route to India and if your not aware of what the little ice age of the 16th century is. Then you shouldn't speak when I'm talking about the broader dynamics of the world at the time.

 

[World]

First of all I have no idea wtf your talking about. Where did I justify anything they did? This is not the 19th century Europeans did not have the technology to overpower everyone . What the proturgese did is threaten the ports and tax all the trade and sink the ships of anybody who opposed them. Even this control wss only possible for a couple decades.
Second who do you think was buying the goods from this trade? The Europeans . That's why they wanted to find another route to India and if your not aware of what the little ice age of the 16th century is. Then you shouldn't speak when I'm talking about the broader dynamics of the world at the time.

You do know that the Portuguese man who was the first European to reach India by sea is Vasco Da Gama? He was appointed governor of Portugese India. His son led the Portuguese army in Futah al Habash against Ahmed Gurey, and we beheaded him. His brother was the next Portuguese governor of India.

Are you a ajnabi, or are you a cuckold? We have first hand Portuguese accounts in 1620 describing in detail what happened and you are still rejecting it and trying to whitewash their crimes.

 

[Midas]

You do know that the Portuguese man who was the first European to reach India by sea is Vasco Da Gama? He was appointed governor of Portugese India. His son led the Portuguese army in Futah al Habash against Ahmed Gurey, and we beheaded him. His brother was the next Portuguese governor of India.

Are you a ajnabi, or are you a cuckold? We have first hand Portuguese accounts in 1620 describing in detail what happened and you are still rejecting it and trying to whitewash their crimes.

View attachment 330340

I'm confused you must not be a native English speaker if you were able to misunerstand what I was saying this badly. Nobody is whitewashing their crimes. Let me dumb down my point so you understand what I'm saying. The portugese were not stronger enough that they alone were able to result in the exterme decline of red sea trade. In fact by the time that account was written they were kicked out of the red sea compelty and it was under ottoman control. This is the probelm with historical illiteracy when you think one thing can explain everything .

 

[World]

I'm confused you must not be a native English speaker if you were able to misunerstand what I was saying this badly. Nobody is whitewashing their crimes. Let me dumb down my point so you understand what I'm saying. The portugese were not stronger enough that they alone were able to result in the exterme decline of red sea trade. In fact by the time that account was written they were kicked out of the red sea compelty and it was under ottoman control. This is the probelm with historical illiteracy when you think one thing can explain everything .

There is no use of the Red Sea if the Straits of Malacca (trade of Malaysia/China/Indonesia) is controlled by the Portuguese, if the Straits of Hormuz(trade of Oman, Bahrain, Iran, Iraq) is controlled by the Portuguese, if the Portuguese control India, as well Sri Lanka, as well as the Swahili coast.

So whilst they didn’t control the Red Sea in 1620, they still controlled the Strait of Malacca, Hormuz, Swahili coast, India and Sri Lanka. The Portuguese didn’t get kicked out of the Red Sea, they just failed to colonise it. But their navy was still superior to the Ottomans, and they made sure that the Red Sea was never safe through attacks and piracy. Without merchant ships having a permit, they would never be able to access the trade in the Silk Road, which was under their control.

It’s not an exaggeration that this was a crusade against Muslims, this was happening at the same time they conquered the Muslim empires in Portugal/Spain e.g. Andalusia and expelled all Muslims citizens.

 

[Idilinaa]

I was reading one of those old 19th century articles about somalia. One of them mentions a 9 mile long aqueduct in ruins since people used those stones for their graves. My question is how did we forget this kind of technology was it ? I suspect if you looed all throughout somalia you would find simialr examples like this and or the ajuran. It makes no sense since to create an aqueduct like that requires enormous manpower. I sort of understand why the somali people living in the 19th century said it was the work of a forgotten race. It seems like post 1500s we regressed back millenia. Sort of like the khemr empire and angora wat

You should provide the article in question otherwise we have no idea to what you are talking about. You could be spouting nonsense for all we know.

The only aqueduct to speak about is the ancient one near Berbera. Berbera as a town is a unique case because it lacks adequate water , so they had to build a water transportation system that brought water from a resovoir miles away in the interior. As far as i know they never said it was built by a forgotten race at all, when the population and the economy declined it fell into disuse. If you don't have any need to use it, you just don't use it anymore. It is not really complicated.

 

[Idilinaa]

There is no use of the Red Sea if the Straits of Malacca (trade of Malaysia/China/Indonesia) is controlled by the Portuguese, if the Straits of Hormuz(trade of Oman, Bahrain, Iran, Iraq) is controlled by the Portuguese, if the Portuguese control India, as well Sri Lanka, as well as the Swahili coast.

So whilst they didn’t control the Red Sea in 1620, they still controlled the Strait of Malacca, Hormuz, Swahili coast, India and Sri Lanka. The Portuguese didn’t get kicked out of the Red Sea, they just failed to colonise it. But their navy was still superior to the Ottomans, and they made sure that the Red Sea was never safe through attacks and piracy. Without merchant ships having a permit, they would never be able to access the trade in the Silk Road, which was under their control.

It’s not an exaggeration that this was a crusade against Muslims, this was happening at the same time they conquered the Muslim empires in Portugal/Spain e.g. Andalusia and expelled all Muslims citizens.

I didn't know Aden was so large wow.

Portuguese achieved destruction of a international trade system that had been undisturbed since at least 3000 years ago!

The Portuguese had full military control of the Indian Ocean, Red Sea and Persian Gulf for like 150-200 years (1500-1700). They blockaded all Muslim trade from Egypt to Somalia, to the Arabian Peninsula, Persia, India, Swahili coast, Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, China.

Here is what the Portuguese said in the early 17th century:
View attachment 330327

So the ancient trade links that existed for thousands of years that the urban population of northern Somalia had sustained, thrived, and built itself from were destroyed.

I tend to disagree with Said Shidaad on this. I don't think the the interior towns decline or fall had anything to do with the Portuguese maritime disturbance.

The interior towns in the east was connected to a caravan trade to the west and fell apart as the political and economic structure of the west central Awdal fell apart in the mid-late 1600s. Awdal's economy relied more on a interior self sustaining economy based partly on caravan trade.

The Eastern State(Bari) largely survived because the maritime coastal economy continued intact but the interior economy didn't. A trade alliance between the Eastern Sultanate and the Arabian peninsula was created to sustain it in the 1600s and safeguard trade.

Portuguese didn't manage to fully block trade, control or destroy it either, they did however disturb it enough to cause a breif decline, they pretty much abandoned most of the places they attacked by mid 1500s and then in the 1700s there was European piracy in the Indian ocean.

You can read more about European Piracy in the Indian Ocean. It is dubbed the ''Golden Age of Piracy'' and piracy in a general scale that made the waters unsafe and dangerous.

European piracy in the Indian Ocean thus rose and fell in various cycles from the 16th to early 19th centuries.

It was not only Europeans who were engaged in piracy. European records from the 17th and 18th centuries are rife with descriptions of Indian and Arab pirates, also called “rovers”, who made the waters of western Indian Ocean especially close to the coasts dangerous places.

 

[CABDULWALI XASAN.]

Interesting, Im fascinated by aqueducts especially the roman ones with the arches they look very nice. Didnt think somalia ever had one but for a situation like berbera, I guess you need some water.. I wonder where they got the water from, the mountains or a natural spring? Its very dry maybe the climate has changed since then.. Its crazy how a country in europe could cause so much disruption with a wooden ships and journeys that would last months. Equally crazy is how I did a project on vasco de gama and Im now finding out that his son was killed by somalis. I mean I think Ive heard about this before but crazy

 

[Idilinaa]

Interesting, Im fascinated by aqueducts especially the roman ones with the arches they look very nice. Didnt think somalia ever had one but for a situation like berbera, I guess you need some water.. I wonder where they got the water from, the mountains or a natural spring? Its very dry maybe the climate has changed since then.. Its crazy how a country in europe could cause so much disruption with a wooden ships and journeys that would last months. Equally crazy is how I did a project on vasco de gama and Im now finding out that his son was killed by somalis. I mean I think Ive heard about this before but crazy

I think it's just general thing if the population increases you need more water. There are similar water transport near Bandar Khor or Biyotola , where they built a drainage cut out of large builders that ran between mounds into a river nine miles away at Tog Weyn.

I don't think it's crazy or amazing at all how they caused a disruption. Trade in the red sea and the indian ocean was based on mutuality and translocalism. So all the parties involved had trade agreements and worked to safeguard the trade, so they really had no reason to engage in that kind of predatory behavior. It is why piracy in Horn of African waters was rare up until our current times.

Pirates are often viewed as being the antithesis of trade and law and order.

Europeans were greedy obsessed with gaining riches and created a culture of violence they used to force themselves into this profitable trade. They drew other local actors within the Indian ocean community into their piracy mayhem as well in the process.

Greed theory best explains the motivations of pirates, their predatory behaviour being driven by the incentive of large financial rewards.

As a result, merchants themselves would dabble in piracy either out of desperation or out of greed for greater profits.

 

[Midas]

Yh it's the berbera one. Your reading the exact article I was taking about