Shocking - Greek Coastguard intentionally try to kill asylum seekers
- Thread starter xxx_newacc
- Start date
How to do the Latin American route sxb?
The alchemist
VIP
The fact that the Greek states denied any illegal activities means they hired individuals willing to have blood on their hands and instructed them to be tough at any cost. By extension of denying the outright murder, they are vicariously protecting themselves since they had a direct hand in picking out these killers.
A country set on transparency for its legal operations would have said it would investigate instead of outwardly denying it. It means they know that the investigation is going to expose their knowledge of it, on top of still okaying similar death-causing activities further.
I have my suspicions of why they did this. To send a reputation to immigrants that they might die if they ended up on the Greek coast. They are willing to deliberately spike the death toll for this, which is evil.
The numbers reflect a sharp decline in immigrants, which might be the consequence of the heinous treatment of these people:
"A total number of 2,231 migrants arrived in Greece from Turkey irregularly in March, down around 42 percent compared to the previous month, authorities said in a statement published on April 8. The overall decrease, when compared to September 2023, exceeded 80 percent."
Only 8% of the people who arrive in Greece apply for asylum, only 8! This is a very minor and quite frankly healthy dose of immigration for a country. Further, a small fraction of those will get to stay, either way. The rest go to northern countries.
Greece experiences a population decline from emigration and a low fertility rate far below the replacement level.
Besides tourism, which is in decline, that country is not a place where highly skilled workers go to live and add value -- that's an unrealistic expectation since it is a country with a bad economy by European standards.
Considering their issues, they need fresh people from the boat. Heck, they should ask the people to stay. These people have no reason to be picky.
Think about this, Greeks themselves, don't even want to be in Greece, yet want to kill people at the borders who want to come in. The legally unconstrained makes it highly easy for Greek nationals to move to other EU countries, and they do so in droves, especially the highly educated ones. After the 2009 economic crisis in that country, where it lost a substantial amount of its GDP, also increasing its public debt by nearly 200%, outmigration went from one of the lowest in Europe (where back then, people migrated mostly to become guest workers and go back, eventually) to having one of the highest emigration rates (as a one-way ticket). They lost the will of a significant fresh workforce since the young people wanted to move out.
What this country should do is embrace the immigrants as raw materials and craft them in a dignified manner that does not require them to wash off their backgrounds. They should engineer effective programs for specialized education that can send them to work as quickly as possible and give options for higher education, in a unique system for immigrants if they wish to do so. I think these Mediterranean countries are letting their racism, ignorance, and cultural xenophobia come in the way of their own success. All this time they have looked at these people as a problem or a burden but that is because you want to hold them down, when immigrants have proven that, if you pressure them to do good, they will even do better. None of these countries have the luxury of thinking about the demographic optics of increased diversity when they don't want to reproduce. You cannot have it both ways.
Besides, history has taught us that those regions were flourishing most when they embraced more heterogeneity. A closed system approach only works if you are willing to cover all the bases, which they don't, and it is time-dependent, one needs fresh dynamism in pulses even then. Japan is a country that exhausted the notion of self-sufficiency and they will implode if they don't re-work their operation models.
Greece has dealt with immigration through a very delineated, bureaucratic regulatory perspective rather than viewing it as a potential resource. Their policy was short-sightedness-driven. They never put into practice methodology to set up plans for integration beyond lip service. For example, Greece put up an ambitious plan between 2001 and 2008 that never went beyond the paperwork. During the economic crisis, of 2009 and 2015, even well-integrated secondary immigrants, were dis-integrated, and many lost their legal status, moving either to neighboring countries that they had no official ties to beyond ethnic association or participating ass unofficial people in hopes that they could get their legal status back eventually. Handling of the immigration matter was almost entirely shambolic and unserious from the Greek part. So seeing these people kill immigrants at the border, who will most likely pass through, one can see they have reached a new low.
A country set on transparency for its legal operations would have said it would investigate instead of outwardly denying it. It means they know that the investigation is going to expose their knowledge of it, on top of still okaying similar death-causing activities further.
I have my suspicions of why they did this. To send a reputation to immigrants that they might die if they ended up on the Greek coast. They are willing to deliberately spike the death toll for this, which is evil.
The numbers reflect a sharp decline in immigrants, which might be the consequence of the heinous treatment of these people:
"A total number of 2,231 migrants arrived in Greece from Turkey irregularly in March, down around 42 percent compared to the previous month, authorities said in a statement published on April 8. The overall decrease, when compared to September 2023, exceeded 80 percent."
Only 8% of the people who arrive in Greece apply for asylum, only 8! This is a very minor and quite frankly healthy dose of immigration for a country. Further, a small fraction of those will get to stay, either way. The rest go to northern countries.
Greece experiences a population decline from emigration and a low fertility rate far below the replacement level.
Besides tourism, which is in decline, that country is not a place where highly skilled workers go to live and add value -- that's an unrealistic expectation since it is a country with a bad economy by European standards.
Considering their issues, they need fresh people from the boat. Heck, they should ask the people to stay. These people have no reason to be picky.
Think about this, Greeks themselves, don't even want to be in Greece, yet want to kill people at the borders who want to come in. The legally unconstrained makes it highly easy for Greek nationals to move to other EU countries, and they do so in droves, especially the highly educated ones. After the 2009 economic crisis in that country, where it lost a substantial amount of its GDP, also increasing its public debt by nearly 200%, outmigration went from one of the lowest in Europe (where back then, people migrated mostly to become guest workers and go back, eventually) to having one of the highest emigration rates (as a one-way ticket). They lost the will of a significant fresh workforce since the young people wanted to move out.
What this country should do is embrace the immigrants as raw materials and craft them in a dignified manner that does not require them to wash off their backgrounds. They should engineer effective programs for specialized education that can send them to work as quickly as possible and give options for higher education, in a unique system for immigrants if they wish to do so. I think these Mediterranean countries are letting their racism, ignorance, and cultural xenophobia come in the way of their own success. All this time they have looked at these people as a problem or a burden but that is because you want to hold them down, when immigrants have proven that, if you pressure them to do good, they will even do better. None of these countries have the luxury of thinking about the demographic optics of increased diversity when they don't want to reproduce. You cannot have it both ways.
Besides, history has taught us that those regions were flourishing most when they embraced more heterogeneity. A closed system approach only works if you are willing to cover all the bases, which they don't, and it is time-dependent, one needs fresh dynamism in pulses even then. Japan is a country that exhausted the notion of self-sufficiency and they will implode if they don't re-work their operation models.
Greece has dealt with immigration through a very delineated, bureaucratic regulatory perspective rather than viewing it as a potential resource. Their policy was short-sightedness-driven. They never put into practice methodology to set up plans for integration beyond lip service. For example, Greece put up an ambitious plan between 2001 and 2008 that never went beyond the paperwork. During the economic crisis, of 2009 and 2015, even well-integrated secondary immigrants, were dis-integrated, and many lost their legal status, moving either to neighboring countries that they had no official ties to beyond ethnic association or participating ass unofficial people in hopes that they could get their legal status back eventually. Handling of the immigration matter was almost entirely shambolic and unserious from the Greek part. So seeing these people kill immigrants at the border, who will most likely pass through, one can see they have reached a new low.
The alchemist
VIP
From Latin America to Europe? One would think NA is the destination if one chooses the South American route.
World
VIP
Greece deported like 30-40 % of their population to Turkey because they were Greek Muslim and not Greek Christian, don't think they care about all of that tbh.
Im very sure it was a mutual population transfer. Turkey deported over a million Turkish Christians to Greece, which was triple the Muslims Greece deported.
World
VIP
Turkish Christians are Karamanlides, and about 100,000 of them were deported to Greece.
Eh, wouldn't really call it a mutual population transfer. Something like 5-7 million Muslims were ethnically cleansed from the Balkans after the defeat of the Ottomans. Bulgaria, just like Greece, was 40 % Muslim and they were killed and/or ethnically cleansed.
It's just how Europeans are. Whenever they take control of a territory, they kill or ethnically cleanse to purify it. In the Iberian Peninsula, when they conquered Andalusia they sent all Jews and Muslims to the Ottoman Empire as well, or killed them.
Heres a map of the Muslim population in the Balkans, in 1525. About 300-400 years before Muslims were ethnically cleansed, so you can imagine how much it increased over the centuries:
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A country has the right to forcefully remove aliens from its territory and to prevent illegals from trying to break into the country. You wouldn’t strike that tone if thousands of oromos were crossing into Somalia on a monthly basis, I suggest you do away with that hypocritical stance.
I am referring to this:
Population exchange between Greece and Turkey - Wikipedia
Greece traded 400k Muslims with Turkey’s 1.2 Million Christians. This allowed both countries to maintain religious homogeny, which is ironic for Ataturk.
Actually, asylum seeking is legal in almost every country on earth.
That’s why countries prevent migrants from reaching their shores. So that they cannot take advantage of the law.
Come on guys, let’s use google please.
The alchemist
VIP
You're conflating two things that really speak to your low moral significance and ignorance. I was commenting on them killing immigrants. That was the first point of this thread. I have never made claims of killing Oromos. Ever. So that comparison is outright false. So never dare to lie about my position on that. Learn to have some boundaries with you and speak your nonsense. Don't opt for the despicable total lowlife strategy.
The rest I wrote were facts I put out about how they historically have dealt with the issue which is documented. Nothing I wrote was fabricated. Absolutely nothing. Yet an uninformed guy like you who responds with these low-quality remarks would not understand; you cannot think beyond typical regurgitated tropes by idiotic masses. You're a stereotype with zero original input.
If you had basic comprehension then you would see how I explicitly wrote that immigration is the only solution for this country since it has a negative population rate, plus a fertility rate that is severely below replacement level, in a country where the average citizen is 45 years old. This is a disaster, inarguably. If you can't wrap your head around that, then you're pathetic miskeen.
Many scholars and policy researchers agree with me. Heck, many intelligent people in Greece agree with me, I figure.
But let's delve further into your claims of me being a hypocrite.
The population rate where I am from doesn't need Oromos because the people there can sustain their population a rising populace. Do you understand what that means? No, probably not by the foolish way you ignored all that I put down to constrain the conversation dishonestly and responded in a dumb factory-setting trope. To put it in clear English, it means that where I am from, we don't need Oromos to sustain ourselves. You're not aligning with these equivalences whatsoever. I will go further into it further down as well, so pay keen attention.
The bottom line is, and this is not something anyone with a sense can deny: Greece cannot afford such a policy on its own terms. The examples are different to the degree where reality doesn't accord the comparison you made and faulty parallelism that desperately tries to portray me as a hypocrite. Clearly you don't discern the glaring obvious difference with this.
You have to learn to think with your head sometimes.
I am not a Greek politician, so that country will keep failing and shoot itself on its foot as it has done for these many decades on this matter unless they change. My words are inconsequential. But this is a forum where mature people to address problems and measure solutions to something that has to be fixed and weigh options for how one can turn a negative into a positive.
To emphasize something hilarious, which I have to sadly mention, Greece has no right to kill anyone at their border. That's against what they call "Human Rights" - their own laws and values. So no, killing people is not Greece's right. That's absolutely not true.
Grasp this long summary and think through this time:
Greece is finished without immigrants. They're going to receive immigrants regardless, however, only a minority chose to stay because majority chose to go to northern countries and that is something they should embrace to improve their dwindling population, old demographic, and a contracting economy. This is a rational and quite intelligent solution. Their fertility rate will not turn around and the young people, due to the free movement between EU, buy one-way tickets out of the country. They have a drain of their active youth to sustain a vibrant economy. Again, this can only be supported by immigration. Greece cannot attract global north human capital because it is seen as a dying shambolic country by the rest of Europe, only existing for the exotic summer vacation. Only training immigrants to improve the economy is the right choice.
Somaliland has no population problem so they don't need Oromos, moreover, I don't believe in killing immigrants and this automatically removes this notion of hypocritism even further. I have no problem with a healthy dose of immigrants, at all. And neither have I said that Greece should take in immigrants without process -- my whole writing was about how that was not responsible. Neither did I say bring in immigrants to a replacement level because if you read the facts, the immigrants that actually want to be there are not the majority relative to ones that pass through. Greece is not being flooded with people who want to stay, predominantly individuals who want to go to better functional societies. So don't try to reduce this conversation to a stupid level where you now hyperbolically misrepresent the claims made by me. Everyone can read what I wrote. It does not work. According to the numbers in the refugee crisis, of all the 800,000 people that passed through, a bit over 60,000 applied for asylum from what I have read. Now, clearly, way fewer people pass through, with a higher ratio applying for asylum of that relatively way lesser number but it's not dramatic whatsoever. Let us not appeal to irrational emotionalism.
Greece has no right to kill anyone at its borders. So, no, this ridiculous claim that they can forcefully kill people, is not true. It's an unhinged claim.
I've exhausted angles that you dishonestly tried to come from, and killed any notion of hypocrite or what Greece has the right to with regards to killing people that only want to pass through, not even live there.
On the matter of the policy proposition for a solution to their historically negative handling of immigrants but also their whole country was an important factor. The difference between me and you is that I propose a solution for Greece to become better and not keep killing itself, and utilize the strength of the few immigrants that want to stay to integrate them towards a country-wide improvement. This is better for Greece and the immigrants.
What you proposed was a pathetic consign of killing innocent people, children, women, and men in desperation, that no one but deranged unintelligent jahils support, and further implosion of Greece beyond return denouncing one of their biggest options, leading them to a further decline. I am not a hypocrite, but you're something worse.
Now, I have written enough for you to reflect take back all the bullshit and lies, and reflect on your low moral stance, if you have any integrity, that is. But you're an adult. I can give you food, I cannot chew it for you. If you peddle more nonsense, man, I am not going to take you seriously. Everyone can see I responded to each of your crap. So if you choose to peddle more irresponsible rubbish, then I will not give you any courtesy. You can write many lies while it takes 10 times more energy to set it correctly. Opportunity costs, I don't have time for you, lol. But this was worth it one time, and one time only because I know many people here have a very uninformed way of framing this issue. It is important not to delve into the cringe-zero immigrant, and on the other, uncontrolled immigration without processing, it's all wrong. Still, for Greece and other countries, immigration is a solution instead of a problem. All they need to do is operate institutions better domestically. If Greece does that, then they would actually want more immigrants since they can convert that to direct value which compounds every 5-year cycle to proper value. I keep saying basic things, without these stimuli, they're looking at a societal death.
“Yes you must accept hundreds of thousands of fobs who can’t even comprehend the use of a shopping trolley so your economy grows by 0.1%”You're conflating two things that really speak to your low moral significance and ignorance. I was commenting on them killing immigrants. That was the first point of this thread. I have never made claims of killing Oromos. Ever. So that comparison is outright false. So never dare to lie about my position on that. Learn to have some boundaries with you and speak your nonsense. Don't opt for the despicable total lowlife strategy.
The rest I wrote were facts I put out about how they historically have dealt with the issue which is documented. Nothing I wrote was fabricated. Absolutely nothing. Yet an uninformed guy like you who responds with these low-quality remarks would not understand; you cannot think beyond typical regurgitated tropes by idiotic masses. You're a stereotype with zero original input.
If you had basic comprehension then you would see how I explicitly wrote that immigration is the only solution for this country since it has a negative population rate, plus a fertility rate that is severely below replacement level, in a country where the average citizen is 45 years old. This is a disaster, inarguably. If you can't wrap your head around that, then you're pathetic miskeen.
Many scholars and policy researchers agree with me. Heck, many intelligent people in Greece agree with me, I figure.
But let's delve further into your claims of me being a hypocrite.
The population rate where I am from doesn't need Oromos because the people there can sustain their population a rising populace. Do you understand what that means? No, probably not by the foolish way you ignored all that I put down to constrain the conversation dishonestly and responded in a dumb factory-setting trope. To put it in clear English, it means that where I am from, we don't need Oromos to sustain ourselves. You're not aligning with these equivalences whatsoever. I will go further into it further down as well, so pay keen attention.
The bottom line is, and this is not something anyone with a sense can deny: Greece cannot afford such a policy on its own terms. The examples are different to the degree where reality doesn't accord the comparison you made and faulty parallelism that desperately tries to portray me as a hypocrite. Clearly you don't discern the glaring obvious difference with this.
You have to learn to think with your head sometimes.
I am not a Greek politician, so that country will keep failing and shoot itself on its foot as it has done for these many decades on this matter unless they change. My words are inconsequential. But this is a forum where mature people to address problems and measure solutions to something that has to be fixed and weigh options for how one can turn a negative into a positive.
To emphasize something hilarious, which I have to sadly mention, Greece has no right to kill anyone at their border. That's against what they call "Human Rights" - their own laws and values. So no, killing people is not Greece's right. That's absolutely not true.
Grasp this long summary and think through this time:
Greece is finished without immigrants. They're going to receive immigrants regardless, however, only a minority chose to stay because majority chose to go to northern countries and that is something they should embrace to improve their dwindling population, old demographic, and a contracting economy. This is a rational and quite intelligent solution. Their fertility rate will not turn around and the young people, due to the free movement between EU, buy one-way tickets out of the country. They have a drain of their active youth to sustain a vibrant economy. Again, this can only be supported by immigration. Greece cannot attract global north human capital because it is seen as a dying shambolic country by the rest of Europe, only existing for the exotic summer vacation. Only training immigrants to improve the economy is the right choice.
Somaliland has no population problem so they don't need Oromos, moreover, I don't believe in killing immigrants and this automatically removes this notion of hypocritism even further. I have no problem with a healthy dose of immigrants, at all. And neither have I said that Greece should take in immigrants without process -- my whole writing was about how that was not responsible. Neither did I say bring in immigrants to a replacement level because if you read the facts, the immigrants that actually want to be there are not the majority relative to ones that pass through. Greece is not being flooded with people who want to stay, predominantly individuals who want to go to better functional societies. So don't try to reduce this conversation to a stupid level where you now hyperbolically misrepresent the claims made by me. Everyone can read what I wrote. It does not work. According to the numbers in the refugee crisis, of all the 800,000 people that passed through, a bit over 60,000 applied for asylum from what I have read. Now, clearly, way fewer people pass through, with a higher ratio applying for asylum of that relatively way lesser number but it's not dramatic whatsoever. Let us not appeal to irrational emotionalism.
Greece has no right to kill anyone at its borders. So, no, this ridiculous claim that they can forcefully kill people, is not true. It's an unhinged claim.
I've exhausted angles that you dishonestly tried to come from, and killed any notion of hypocrite or what Greece has the right to with regards to killing people that only want to pass through, not even live there.
On the matter of the policy proposition for a solution to their historically negative handling of immigrants but also their whole country was an important factor. The difference between me and you is that I propose a solution for Greece to become better and not keep killing itself, and utilize the strength of the few immigrants that want to stay to integrate them towards a country-wide improvement. This is better for Greece and the immigrants.
What you proposed was a pathetic consign of killing innocent people, children, women, and men in desperation, that no one but deranged unintelligent jahils support, and further implosion of Greece beyond return denouncing one of their biggest options, leading them to a further decline. I am not a hypocrite, but you're something worse.
Now, I have written enough for you to reflect take back all the bullshit and lies, and reflect on your low moral stance, if you have any integrity, that is. But you're an adult. I can give you food, I cannot chew it for you. If you peddle more nonsense, man, I am not going to take you seriously. Everyone can see I responded to each of your crap. So if you choose to peddle more irresponsible rubbish, then I will not give you any courtesy. You can write many lies while it takes 10 times more energy to set it correctly. Opportunity costs, I don't have time for you, lol. But this was worth it one time, and one time only because I know many people here have a very uninformed way of framing this issue. It is important not to delve into the cringe-zero immigrant, and on the other, uncontrolled immigration without processing, it's all wrong. Still, for Greece and other countries, immigration is a solution instead of a problem. All they need to do is operate institutions better domestically. If Greece does that, then they would actually want more immigrants since they can convert that to direct value which compounds every 5-year cycle to proper value. I keep saying basic things, without these stimuli, they're looking at a societal death.
“they’re actually smart and they’re all entrepreneurial, educated, and professional, wait what? Never mind that they rape people and defecate on the streets, they’re growing the economy”
get lost you intellectually molested two bit statistician, all you can do is use shoddy economic analysis to prove your already non existent and frankly scandalous claims, had I been feeling more angry today I could’ve wiped the floor with you twice or thrice over. Begone.
Asylum in a neighbouring country, in times of war, famine, or disasters, let’s actually read the law beyond a line or two….Actually, asylum seeking is legal in almost every country on earth.
That’s why countries prevent migrants from reaching their shores. So that they cannot take advantage of the law.
Come on guys, let’s use google please.
Yes, please pull up the specific legislation where that criteria is placed for asylum seeking.
How about they stay at home?
I agree that they should focus on building up their own countries instead of traveling through multiple countries to reach their destination
The alchemist
VIP
This guy seriously acting like an unhinged victim when he quoted and lied about me, and now through emotionalism, speaks in the typical uncontrolled hyperbole of a child. What you were shamelessly peddling was entirely dealt with since it cannot withstand basic scrutiny. It's that simple. Stop this crying nonsense. Out here justifying the killing of women and children and crying like a victim now. Scum lowlife.
Irresponsible liars like you talk recklessly because you have no intelligence to speak upright and lack morals, not to mention akhlaq. You've demonstrated that you're beneath being responded to. People like you are like cockroaches; there is no limit to where you will not go in a conversation because of your foul desperation, so henceforth, beyond this post, you're terminated.
You've out-used your quota, so don't quote me again. These two responses to you were merely to put you in your place, while also informing similar people with fallacious bankrupt views such as yourself that you adopted from an adolescent 4chan incel hub, everything beyond this is a diminishing return for me because people like you lack shame, there is no limit to how low you could go. People who don't respect themselves have no limits.
You thought this was an intellectual exercise. Not at all. It was me responding to your bullshit about a real-life topic that is not rocket science. You can put a crown on your head with 'loser' inscribed on it. Congratulations. I don't care about your ego or intellectual obsession, whatever is fueling this bizarre approach.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Article 14), which states that everyone has the right to seek and enjoy asylum from persecution in other countries. The 1951 UN Refugee Convention (and its 1967 Protocol) expands upon this to include those who are fleeing war, persecution, disasters which can also include famines and natural disasters such as earthquakes or floods.Yes, please pull up the specific legislation where that criteria is placed for asylum seeking.
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