Political Discussion: Why Somalia is failed state

Status
Not open for further replies.
For those of you interested i want to start a discussion about the question: Why did Somalia (1960-1991) fail as State ? I start with answering this question:

1) The most obvious reason for me is there was never a common somali identity which fully replaced the clan identity. Specially the big "noble" tribes would have lost to much privileges. Yes during the Kacaan there was a basic sense of Somalinimo which spread among the people but MSB himself and later the rebels used lineages for their goals. So Somalinimo was never a fully adapted principle in the society.

2) There a many definitions in many different Sciences of what a State is but lets just say a state is an Organisation with a folk (for example somali people) and a defined territory. In a State only a group of people have the power to use force on other people. We call this group government. The power that this government have, splits into three sections. First the power to make laws(Parliament and constitution), second to make sure this laws are followed (Police force) and third to take everyone unaccountable (Court) who breaks this laws. By this simplistic definition of a state we shall all realize there was NEVER a somali state before 1960.

The somali people who never ruled a State couldn't deal with a new System where only a defined group (government) had power. The kill of the second Somali president AUN by his bodyguard, the disregard of the Constitution during the Kacaan Era and their crimes against Humanity, the formation of tribal rebel groups and corruption to an unbelievable extent by all three goverments during 1960-1991. These examples showed that the somali people and their government(s) weren't ready to delegate the Power to the government and the government weren't ready to use this power in a proper manner.

3) The third reason for me is Somalia is based on colonial borders and not somalinimo. Pre Colonial times there was not a somali empire which was divided by the colonial powers. Different Somali Tribes were forced by these cadaans to share a country. In other words the tribes of the somali republic never agreed upon to share a nation with each other, rather it was forced on them after the new african nations agreed to not change any colonial borderline. People saying somalia is the only african nation state with 100 % somalis is bulshi*t. Every Somali is only loyal to his subtribe for example majeerten or Abgaal and ect. So Somalia was an artificial State consisting of many different ethnics (subtribes). One could say somalia is multi-ethnic state with more than 100 ethnic groups who only share language and religion.
 

Farm

VIP
I agree as well. The reason Somalia collapsed was because too many ethnic groups tried to form a new identity when in reality our sub clans are our identity. We should go back to our precolonial sultanates (for the ones who have one ) Somali isn’t real, and tbh never was.
 
I agree with most of what you posted as an ethnic Puntite. We need to have this discussion.

I am somewhat on the borderline of his 2nd case/reason.

I don't think not having a national state prior to 1960s is one of the key reasons of the Somali state failure.

Would it have been better to start our independence with a 100 year old state building culture, yes absolutely but did not having tht 100 year state building culture influence us to the point we are in now?..

No I don't think so...if you take away European managed countries and handful others most countries in the world were in the same boat us.

Having looked at the Ops perspective on this matter I would also disagree with his 3rd point of view...
Different Somali Tribes were forced by these cadaans to share a country. In other words the tribes of the somali republic never agreed upon to share a nation with each other, rather it was forced on them after the new african nations agreed to not change anycolonial borderline.

Thts not a very strong argument consider every single other African is in a far more complicated mix web of people cultures and religions far more poisonous than wht the Somalis having been dealt with.



I am thinking Somaliland and isaaq were on his mind when he was writing this piece as evidenced from his self victimisation...
 
I am somewhat on the borderline of his 2nd case/reason.

I don't think not having a national state prior to 1960s is one of the key reasons of the Somali state failure.

Would it have been better to start our independence with a 100 year old state building culture, yes absolutely but did not having tht 100 year state building culture influence us to the point we are in now?..

No I don't think so...if you take away European managed countries and handful others most countries in the world were in the same boat us.

Having looked at the Ops perspective on this matter I would also disagree with his 3rd point of view...


Thts not a very strong argument consider every single other African is in a far more complicated mix web of people cultures and religions far more poisonous than wht the Somalis having been dealt with.



I am thinking Somaliland and isaaq were on his mind when he was writing this piece as evidenced from his self victimisation...
1) To my second point. Every Nation that you see today is built upon many 100 years experience. For example the modern France State was built in 1789 after revolution which started against the absolutism. Actually it took another 100 years, a second revolution and a war with other European super powers to become a functional state. So yes you can't just built a nation from nowhere. This happend only once in humanity and it was the prophet Muhammad SCW.

You proving my third point by saying the other african nations are even more divided through lineage. Yes they are and thats why not a single african State after 1960 became a industrial (developed)country they are ALL poor third world country's like they were before their independence. (South Africa is the exception they already were developed and ruled by whites)
 
I agree as well. The reason Somalia collapsed was because too many ethnic groups tried to form a new identity when in reality our sub clans are our identity. We should go back to our precolonial sultanates (for the ones who have one ) Somali isn’t real, and tbh never was.

 
I agree as well. The reason Somalia collapsed was because too many ethnic groups tried to form a new identity when in reality our sub clans are our identity. We should go back to our precolonial sultanates (for the ones who have one ) Somali isn’t real, and tbh never was.
The second problem stills stays the same. The Somalis generally speaking don't know how to rule and how to ruled. Look at the corruption in SL and Puntland. Nobody is hold accountable. Secondly the folks just don't understand what a state is. Best example the Carre rebel group. Its just same old story. Injustice of the goverment and some people start a rebel movement. So going back to subtribe alone won't change things.
 
1) To my second point. Every Nation that you see today is built upon many 100 years experience. For example the modern France State was built in 1789 after revolution which started against the absolutism. Actually it took another 100 years, a second revolution and a war with other European super powers to become a functional state. So yes you can't just built a nation from nowhere. This happend only once in humanity and it was the prophet Muhammad SCW.

You proving my third point by saying the other african nations are even more divided through lineage. Yes they are and thats why not a single african State after 1960 became a industrial (developed)country they are ALL poor third world country's like they were before their independence. (South Africa is the exception they already were developed and ruled by whites)

Your piece is titled WHY IS SOMALIA A FAILED STATE?

Don't bring France into this..there are atleast 60 other countries that you can use as an example..hence I excluded all of Europe when making comparisons to Somalia..

Yes you can build a nation just like tht..it has been proven by more than half f the countries on earth..

Your article never asked why Somalia isn't an industrialised nation!



 
There are 1000 reasons why Somalia is a failed state..

Your reasons are amongst the weakest of those 1000 reasons.

Extreme Tribalism mixed with foreign influences are at the very core of our situation..
 
Your piece is titled WHY IS SOMALIA A FAILED STATE?

Don't bring France into this..there are atleast 60 other countries that you can use as an example..hence I excluded all of Europe when making comparisons to Somalia..

Yes you can build a nation just like tht..it has been proven by more than half f the countries on earth..

Your article never asked why Somalia isn't an industrialised nation!


1) It doesn't matter france or any other nation the message is the same. Not single nation today which is successful hasn't gone trough many 100 of years of wars and revolutions. So Somalia is not any different.

2)this two things are basically synonymous. You mentioned that ethnic diversity isn't a reason for failure and your reason was other african states are even more divided. My Answer was that not a single african State baecame a successful country. By successful country the word industrialized is used as a parameter. Industrialized doesn't just mean you have an industry rather it incorporates Every area of a nation. So if we Say Somalia and the other african nation failed because many ethnics were forced to join a new state the proof is that all African nations are poor and undeveloped and not even a single became Industrialized.
 

Reer-Bari

COMMANDER OF THE PUNTLAND DEFENCE TEAM
For those of you interested i want to start a discussion about the question: Why did Somalia (1960-1991) fail as State ? I start with answering this question:

1) The most obvious reason for me is there was never a common somali identity which fully replaced the clan identity. Specially the big "noble" tribes would have lost to much privileges. Yes during the Kacaan there was a basic sense of Somalinimo which spread among the people but MSB himself and later the rebels used lineages for their goals. So Somalinimo was never a fully adapted principle in the society.

2) There a many definitions in many different Sciences of what a State is but lets just say a state is an Organisation with a folk (for example somali people) and a defined territory. In a State only a group of people have the power to use force on other people. We call this group government. The power that this government have, splits into three sections. First the power to make laws(Parliament and constitution), second to make sure this laws are followed (Police force) and third to take everyone unaccountable (Court) who breaks this laws. By this simplistic definition of a state we shall all realize there was NEVER a somali state before 1960.

The somali people who never ruled a State couldn't deal with a new System where only a defined group (government) had power. The kill of the second Somali president AUN by his bodyguard, the disregard of the Constitution during the Kacaan Era and their crimes against Humanity, the formation of tribal rebel groups and corruption to an unbelievable extent by all three goverments during 1960-1991. These examples showed that the somali people and their government(s) weren't ready to delegate the Power to the government and the government weren't ready to use this power in a proper manner.

3) The third reason for me is Somalia is based on colonial borders and not somalinimo. Pre Colonial times there was not a somali empire which was divided by the colonial powers. Different Somali Tribes were forced by these cadaans to share a country. In other words the tribes of the somali republic never agreed upon to share a nation with each other, rather it was forced on them after the new african nations agreed to not change any colonial borderline. People saying somalia is the only african nation state with 100 % somalis is bulshi*t. Every Somali is only loyal to his subtribe for example majeerten or Abgaal and ect. So Somalia was an artificial State consisting of many different ethnics (subtribes). One could say somalia is multi-ethnic state with more than 100 ethnic groups who only share language and religion.
wrong on most fronts. i guess you never heard of the ajuuraan and adal sultanates. that lasted a long time. the ajuuraan lasted a couple of hundred years consisting of multiple tribes. and in the north and north south was the awdal which covered puntland, somaliland, djibouti, parts of eritrea and the ogadan region. most of those lands excluding the eritrean part was united for hundreds of years in the fight against the abbysinian aggressors.
 

Reer-Bari

COMMANDER OF THE PUNTLAND DEFENCE TEAM
I agree as well. The reason Somalia collapsed was because too many ethnic groups tried to form a new identity when in reality our sub clans are our identity. We should go back to our precolonial sultanates (for the ones who have one ) Somali isn’t real, and tbh never was.
if we do that somalia and other parts will destroy itself. look at habar jeclo fighting in somaliland. last year marehan and hawiya fought in galmudug. merca the biyoomal dir tribe has been fighting the hawiya. siad barre was the man because he banned tribalism. that shit people say about him being a tribalist cannot be taken serious. only oppisition news outlets and international community reported that. why would i listen to them. siad barre made somalia the lion of africa and now we are left be demolished one by one in a divide and conqour strategy. jubbaland(kenya) southweststate(ethiopia)somaliland(UAE)
 

Reer-Bari

COMMANDER OF THE PUNTLAND DEFENCE TEAM
I agree as well. The reason Somalia collapsed was because too many ethnic groups tried to form a new identity when in reality our sub clans are our identity. We should go back to our precolonial sultanates (for the ones who have one ) Somali isn’t real, and tbh never was.
and by the way its a crime in puntland to be a seccessionist walahi you and these other seccessionist would be arrested if you ever promoted that in puntland. not a threat just facts.
 
wrong on most fronts. i guess you never heard of the ajuuraan and adal sultanates. that lasted a long time. the ajuuraan lasted a couple of hundred years consisting of multiple tribes. and in the north and north south was the awdal which covered puntland, somaliland, djibouti, parts of eritrea and the ogadan region. most of those lands excluding the eritrean part was united for hundreds of years in the fight against the abbysinian aggressors.
I heard of all of them but non of these were nation states or modern states. This states were based on Islam and not somalinimo. They hadn't a modern state structure with power sharing institution as far as we know, althoug this arguable. If they had nothing is really known about these states their is barely documented history of them. There is only this book about ahmed gurays period in adal. Ahmed gurays state which was not a modern state nor a somali state collapsed after his death. Because it was not nation, every subtribe went on his own. So adal and ajuuran and what ever you call them are in no way representative for a somali state we barely know something about. They are just a reference in our history books.
 
1) It doesn't matter france or any other nation the message is the same. Not single nation today which is successful hasn't gone trough many 100 of years of wars and revolutions. So Somalia is not any different.

2)this two things are basically synonymous. You mentioned that ethnic diversity isn't a reason for failure and your reason was other african states are even more divided. My Answer was that not a single african State baecame a successful country. By successful country the word industrialized is used as a parameter. Industrialized doesn't just mean you have an industry rather it incorporates Every area of a nation. So if we Say Somalia and the other african nation failed because many ethnics were forced to join a new state the proof is that all African nations are poor and undeveloped and not even a single became Industrialized.

In that' sense would you say countries like Kenya and Tanzania are failures as Somalia considering you said all African countries are failures..

Mate you are loosing your argument either rephrase your definition of failure and success in this subject or go back to the drawing board to establish wht really caused the fall of the Somali republic..

1) Somalis can't be ruled by dictatorship As we are too much of a free spirited people.

2)foreign interventions post 1977

3) extreme form of never ending onion layered tribalism are the root causes of our lack of stability

4) colonial border has contributed to our problems from the get go.


These are reasons much stronger than wht you suggested.
 

Reer-Bari

COMMANDER OF THE PUNTLAND DEFENCE TEAM
Try and arrest me lol.
not me walahi. i wouldnt because i believe in freedom of speech. but like i said before the people and government of puntland would never allow anyone to promote that in puplic. name one person who has ever done that in puntland
 
not me walahi. i wouldnt because i believe in freedom of speech. but like i said before the people and government of puntland would never allow anyone to promote that in puplic. name one person who has ever done that in puntland
there was a small movement in mudug when hsm and galnus wanted to make all of mudug join galnus in 2015. PL is free why would anyone get arrested for speaking their mind stop the lies.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top