Origins and Connections of the Dir

[Grant]

http://beeshadireed.blogspot.com/2017/

Hmnnnnn........ The Madagan Dir built a stone city in the Erigavo area and settled Zayla? The Garre speak their own language, related to Aweer/Boni.

If the Dir are mostly "T", how do they relate to the E1b1b lineages? Are they even Cushites? The Beja have only 1.8% "T", but Afars are about 25% and Dir are 82-100%, depending on location, with Djibouti having the highest percentage. The Beja speak an isolated Cushitic language called "Northern". Afar/Saho is Northeastern. Af Samaale is classified as Southeastern. What is going on with "T"? Did they have a culture and language separate from the E1b1b folks, but were then overwhelmed ? What is it with the Dir?

 

[ReeBorama]

Walaahi if Grant keeps up this *****y crusade against Beesha T in general and Dir in particular, I am gonna retire from Somali forums. NACALAA, how audacious! Now he is even questioning the authenticity of our Cushtic background. Tollaay oo tollaay


Waryaa Grant, diinta aabahaa ayaan caayaynaa walaahi unuku if you dont cease and desist this autoSomali karbaash . Leave us alone broski

Where is Adeer Zumaale when you need him

 

[Sophisticate]

There are nations with several haplogroups that claim to have the same origin. Somalis are pretty homogenous from the looks of it, especially autosomally.:siilaanyolaugh:

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[ReeBorama]

@sophisticate, Inadeer odaygan saan-cadaalahaa inaga celi since ya'all Jamacatu DNA enthusiasts. Otherwise waan ku tufi anigu isaga iyo beeshisaba. Horta waa qoloma ninkani

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[Sophisticate]

@sophisticate, Inadeer odaygan saan-cadaalahaa inaga celi since ya'all Jamacatu DNA enthusiasts. Otherwise waan ku tufi anigu isaga iyo beeshisaba. Horta waa qoloma ninkani

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We could use him for our agenda. If the now dubbed Dir "haplogroup" is indeed different ethnically speaking, we should be granted our own country. We need a second T1a nation but this time English will be a second language. We'll keep a nice E3b minority, mostly in civil servant jobs so they become docile and don't act up (they like to occasionally flirt with chaos). We have what it takes for somewhat functional nationhood. :siilaanyolaugh:

 

[Yahya Liban-Lewis]

I want to thank the Dir clan for providing us with the greatest Somali rapper, Mo-G.

 

[Sophisticate]

I want to thank the Dir clan for providing us with the greatest Somali rapper, Mo-G.

The goons from OvO wanted to sacrifice him. He was talking too much about the Illuminati (but he escaped). And didn't want his backdoors defiled by Lil Weyne and Shimbir Man et al. industry executives. Like a certain someone.

 

[Yahya Liban-Lewis]

The goons from OvO wanted to sacrifice him. He was talking too much about the Illuminati (but he escaped). And didn't want his backdoors defiled by Lil Weyne and Shimbir Man et al. industry executives. Like a certain someone.

Wallahi comedienne baa tahay

 

[Lord Flacko]

Grant is going mad again


I've told him repeatedly before that Cushitic is a linguistic group, in which AfSomali is a part of. Therefore anybody who speaks Somali as their mother tounge is by default also a "Cushite" (despite how I've grown to dislike the term)

But he stays adamant that Cushitic is actually a cover name for E1b1b1, and he even said this

Other people have no problem using "Cushitic" as a general adjective, including referring to tribes:

http://www.enzimuseum.org/peoples-cultures/cushitic-peoples

But seeing how he has a tendency to accidentally contradict himself with his "proof" I checked out the article.

Cushitic peoples
Share
By Maina Kiarie

"In Kenya, Cushitic language speakers are divided into the Eastern and Southern Group.

Cushites form a significant minority of Kenya’s population. They speak Afro-Asiatic languages, and originally came from Ethiopia and Somalia in north-east Africa. Cushites are concentrated in the northernmost North Eastern Province (formerly known as Northern Frontier District -NFD), which borders Somalia.

The Cushitic people’s form a small ethnic minority of about 2%, mostly represented by Oromo and Somali speakers.

The Southern Cushites were the second earliest inhabitants of Kenya after the indigenous Bushman hunter-gatherer groups, and the first of the Cushitic-speaking people to migrate from their homeland in the Horn of Africa about 2000 years ago. They were progressively displaced in a southerly direction and/or absorbed by incoming Nilotic and Bantu groups until they wound up in Tanzania. As a consequence of these movements, there are no longer any Southern Cushites left in Kenya.

The Eastern Cushites include the Oromo and the Somali, of which the Somali are the most recent arrivals to Kenya, having first come from Somalia only a few centuries ago

Cushites, or Cushitic people, live in the arid and semi-arid eastern and North-Eastern parts of Kenya. They reside along a very large area of land that runs from the east of Lake Turkana, stretches to the north of Kenya, and through to the Indian Ocean. Cushites include Somali, Rendille, Borana and Oromo tribes."



Lo and behold, even his own "proof" says Cushitic is merely a linguistic group. Of course he doesn't care, because he's a bored but stubborn white retiree who believes himself to be smarter than everyone else here.



I've told him this before. Over my dead body will an old white man dictate my ethnicity

 

[ethan bradberry]

http://beeshadireed.blogspot.com/2017/

Hmnnnnn........ The Madagan Dir built a stone city in the Erigavo area and settled Zayla? The Garre speak their own language, related to Aweer/Boni.

If the Dir are mostly "T", how do they relate to the E1b1b lineages? Are they even Cushites? The Beja have only 1.8% "T", but Afars are about 25% and Dir are 82-100%, depending on location, with Djibouti having the highest percentage. The Beja speak an isolated Cushitic language called "Northern". Afar/Saho is Northeastern. Af Samaale is classified as Southeastern. What is going on with "T"? Did they have a culture and language separate from the E1b1b folks, but were then overwhelmed ? What is it with the Dir?

But isn't Cushitic just a language group? It doesn't matter what hablogroup they are.

 

[anonimo]

Grant

You are reading too much into haplogroups T's presence among Somalis, and Dir in particular.

Like I have told you before, we are not recent migrants to the Horn as exemplified by the fact that we are considered to be descendants of the first born son of Irir Samaale in the founding myths of the Samaale people. We are the Real McCoy.

The Madigan are found in Hararghe; some have been partially assimilated into the dominant Oromo culture. A few remain in Gabiley.

Only a section of the Garre are Dir; the Quranyow. According to folklore, he was a preacher that married Tuuf's daughter and settled among the Gardheere Samaales.

'Cushite' is an ethno-linguistic term coined by Western scholars. A 'Cushite' ethnic identity probably existed millennia ago in North Africa. Was my Eurasian ancestor present in North Africa at that time? Me don't know.

What I do know is that we were in Africa during the formative years of the Somali ethnic group. Don't bother looking for evidence that we might have recently come to the Horn as Saints and Traders.

 

[Grant]

But isn't Cushitic just a language group? It doesn't matter what hablogroup they are.

It was easier in the past to follow the language than genetics. But Cushite or Cushitic still refers back to the language and people of Kush. The Cushitic migrations up the Nile valley produced the Cushitic tribal groups now in southeastern Ethiopia and the balance of the Horn. They speak Cushitic languages, and most also have a Cushitic ethnicity and high levels of E1b1b. Now that ethnicities can be distinguished by DNA, we can easily return to the original usage.

Check the usage in this blog:

http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/02/cushitic-admixture-levels-somalis-as.html

"Cushitic Admixture Levels: Somalis as a proxy

"As has been mentioned on this blog in the past, Somalis often form a Cushitic or pseudo-Cushitic component, dubbed that way mostly because it peaks in them (Lowland East Cushitic speakers) and then peaks in other Horners (Cushitic & Ethiopian Semitic speaking alike) who obviously would share a lot of much more recent post-Neolithic ancestry with Somalis.

This blog post is simply going to outline the interesting findings of "Cushitic levels in Horners" if Somalis are used as a proxy for Cushitic and essentially this is what Hodgson et al. & Shriner et al. find:

Except for "Lowland East Cushitic speakers" and " Cushitic and Ethiopian Semitic" all these uses of "Cushitic" refer to E1b1b. The author is discussing "Cushitic Admixture Levels", genetics and not linguistics. Similar situation in the article above that Lord Flacko re-quoted.

 

[Grant]

Grant

You are reading too much into haplogroups T's presence among Somalis, and Dir in particular.

Like I have told you before, we are not recent migrants to the Horn as exemplified by the fact that we are considered to be descendants of the first born son of Irir Samaale in the founding myths of the Samaale people. We are the Real McCoy.

The Madigan are found in Hararghe; some have been partially assimilated into the dominant Oromo culture. A few remain in Gabiley.

Only a section of the Garre are Dir; the Quranyow. According to folklore, he was a preacher that married Tuuf's daughter and settled among the Gardheere Samaales.

'Cushite' is an ethno-linguistic term coined by Western scholars. A 'Cushite' ethnic identity probably existed millennia ago in North Africa. Was my Eurasian ancestor present in North Africa at that time? Me don't know.

What I do know is that we were in Africa during the formative years of the Somali ethnic group. Don't bother looking for evidence that we might have recently come to the Horn as Saints and Traders.

I find it very interesting that there are Madagan in Hararghe as I am beginning to associate them with the Harla. (?)

I am not at all questioning the "real dealness" of the Dir. My interest was in a possible connection to the stone artifacts in the North and the trade on the north coast. I can't date it, but I found Gurgura's migration to Zeila especially notable. My thinking is that E1b1b are the latecomers.

 

[Batuulo]

@Duke of Bohol Explain to me what is reer T

 

[TheSayid]

It was easier in the past to follow the language than genetics. But Cushite or Cushitic still refers back to the language and people of Kush. The Cushitic migrations up the Nile valley produced the Cushitic tribal groups now in southeastern Ethiopia and the balance of the Horn. They speak Cushitic languages, and most also have a Cushitic ethnicity and high levels of E1b1b. Now that ethnicities can be distinguished by DNA, we can easily return to the original usage.

Check the usage in this blog:

http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/02/cushitic-admixture-levels-somalis-as.html

"Cushitic Admixture Levels: Somalis as a proxy

"As has been mentioned on this blog in the past, Somalis often form a Cushitic or pseudo-Cushitic component, dubbed that way mostly because it peaks in them (Lowland East Cushitic speakers) and then peaks in other Horners (Cushitic & Ethiopian Semitic speaking alike) who obviously would share a lot of much more recent post-Neolithic ancestry with Somalis.

This blog post is simply going to outline the interesting findings of "Cushitic levels in Horners" if Somalis are used as a proxy for Cushitic and essentially this is what Hodgson et al. & Shriner et al. find:

Except for "Lowland East Cushitic speakers" and " Cushitic and Ethiopian Semitic" all these uses of "Cushitic" refer to E1b1b. The author is discussing "Cushitic Admixture Levels", genetics and not linguistics. Similar situation in the article above that Lord Flacko re-quoted.

the guy in the blog you posted was asked why T is over represented in some groups and his response was.


question:What is your explanation for the haplogroup T overrepresentation in northerners and does that indicate a different migration source?
thanx

"Northerners" is too broad a term to use because it varies based on the ones we're talking about. Most members of the Darod clan from the north are E-V32 (my paternal line is entirely "northern" (Sanaag) and I'm E-V32) and not T-M184 whilst some Isaaq subclans are also predominantly E-V32 so "the north" is hardly some monolithic T-M184 entity but this Y-DNA marker does indeed dominate many Isaaq and Dir clan males.

Honestly, the reason E-V32 and T-M184 dominate Somali males is likely just due to either bottlenecks and/or founder effects that just by chance led to these two lineages among various others our ancestors probably had (A-M13, some non V32 E-M78 lineages, J1 etc.) becoming dominant. It's likely that our "original diversity" was much like other Horn African ethnic groups that we're closely related to or at least more balanced (in a manner similar to our mtDNA frequencies). This phenomenon of over-representing one or two paternal lineages is interestingly common for people with pastoral nomadic roots and a history of patriarchal tribal systems (f.e. Arabians, Pashtuns, Somalis, Boranas etc.)

Are unique migrations and events in pre-history or antiquity or the medieval era responsible for this? Definitely... But I wouldn't say there's some "South to North" migration dichotomy here specifically because "Northern" groups like the Dir clan who are predominantly T-M184 still have significant frequencies of E-V32 (it reaches a rate of 20-30% like in the recent Issa clan members tested in Djibouti or those old Dire Dawan Dir clan members) and then any group of Somalis like various Darod clan members or people from the south who are predominantly E-V32 tend to be 10-30% T-M184 (Darod Somalis sampled in Jijiga are one example here... I'd use an example of people from the south but no study comes to mind now) so there's clearly some shared paternal origins here...

If there is some migration dichotomy here it might have more to do with clans and/or just certain groups rather than something as simplistic as "North Vs. South". Things look more complex than that...

Further study (perhaps sampling remains from throughout the region's history someday when things have gotten stable & developed enough?) is definitely needed to perfectly understand the history of T-M184 and E-V32 among Somalis but for now that's most of what I can say.

someone commented: I think the reason the south doesn't have much of haplogroup t is cause
Djoubiti,Somaliland and eastern Ethiopia("the north) are closer geographically to the source of haplogroup T which is Via Egypt.
I also always wondered what happened to the foreigners who used to live in Saylac and berbera,seems southerners are more hospitable and more open then us

his response:

What? The T-M184 in Somalis did not come from medieval inhabitants and all this stuff you're maybe thinking of... It's pretty obvious that it's a very old marker in the Horn (that has little to do with being "closer to the North") in that it's also found in South Cushites at a high rate:

http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/05/south-cushitic-admixture-in-southeast.html

It's then found in lower frequencies in various Horn African populations that we're closely related to (Habeshas, Oromos, Agaws, Sidamic speakers et al.). It's obvious what's happened here; some Somalis just bottlenecked and or founder effect-ed (or whatever explanation we might see someday with further study) to make what was originally a present but likely obscure-ish Y-DNA dominant. Also, your "closer to Egypt" logic is pretty foolish... Habeshas and Agaws are closer to Egypt and tend to have a 5% T-M184 frequency and it's hardly even present in the likes of Nubians and the Beja:

http://ethiohelix.blogspot.ae/2013/02/sudan-ydna.html

"South" & "East Cushitic" (Somali is a part of East Cushitic) are given a pretty close relationship by most linguists to a point where it is believed that they share an ancestor with one another that they don't share with Central (Agaw) and Northern (Beja) Cushitic, one might dub this shared node "East-South Cushitic" (hell, some linguists theorize that South Cushitic could be an off-shoot of Lowland East Cushitic, long story...) so for the descendants of very old migrants from the Horn (such as the Iraqw)- :

http://anthromadness.blogspot.ae/2015/07/the-savanna-pastoral-neolithic-cushitic.html

-to have T-M184 the same way Somalis do says a lot about the origins of this HG among them & Somalis... Top that off with its presence in various other Horn groups we are closely related to & it's pretty obviously an old Y-DNA lineage that was present in some of the earliest Cushitic speakers in the region that Somalis by mere chance managed to make prominent among them.

No fanciful theories required... And as for what happened to some of the non-Somali inhabitants of places like Zeila; we shall see with future study into the matter.

he believes pretty much somalis were diverse hg wise than some hg's became dominant through "bottle neck"

 

[Bohol]

@Duke of Bohol Explain to me what is reer T

It is a Y-DNA haplogroup that has its origins in Near East but it has been in the horn for thousands
of years. Among Somalis it is mainly found in Dir and Garhajis groups.

 

[Batuulo]

It is a Y-DNA haplogroup that has its origins in Near East but it has been in the horn for thousands
of years. Among Somalis it is mainly found in Dir and Garhajis groups.

Thank you. That was my lesson for the day.

 

[Bob The Builder]

http://beeshadireed.blogspot.com/2017/

Hmnnnnn........ The Madagan Dir built a stone city in the Erigavo area and settled Zayla? The Garre speak their own language, related to Aweer/Boni.

If the Dir are mostly "T", how do they relate to the E1b1b lineages? Are they even Cushites? The Beja have only 1.8% "T", but Afars are about 25% and Dir are 82-100%, depending on location, with Djibouti having the highest percentage. The Beja speak an isolated Cushitic language called "Northern". Afar/Saho is Northeastern. Af Samaale is classified as Southeastern. What is going on with "T"? Did they have a culture and language separate from the E1b1b folks, but were then overwhelmed ? What is it with the Dir?

This guy is a true dumbass. We're the real somalis the rest of yall are frauds. Mixed arab/bantu

 

[anonimo]

I find it very interesting that there are Madagan in Hararghe as I am beginning to associate them with the Harla. (?)

I am not at all questioning the "real dealness" of the Dir. My interest was in a possible connection to the stone artifacts in the North and the trade on the north coast. I can't date it, but I found Gurgura's migration to Zeila especially notable. My thinking is that E1b1b are the latecomers.

Lord only knows who got there first or whether they arrived together, but I agree with you that our traditional homeland was the Northern coast of Somalia.

As for the Madigan being Harla because they live in Hararghe, come on. That is a far fetched theory. Several Somali clans live in Hararghe such as the Babille Karanle, Barsuug and sections of the Gurgura.

 

[anonimo]

It is a Y-DNA haplogroup that has its origins in Near East but it has been in the horn for thousands
of years. Among Somalis it is mainly found in Dir and Garhajis groups.

It could also be present in large numbers among the Habar Jeclo.