Meroitic a Nilo-Saharan language not Cushitic

[Marquis]

Dotawo - A Journal of Nubian Studies

About Dotawo¶ Nubian studies needs a platform in which the old meets the new, in which archaeological, historical, and philological research into Meroitic, Old Nubian, Coptic, Greek, and Arabic sources confront current investigations in modern anthropology and ethnography, Nilo-Saharan...

pages.sandpoints.org

@Apollo @SOMALI GENERAL @Asaana

A hotly debated issue for decades, was settled by the present author. Meroitic belongs to the Northern East Sudanic (NES) language family, a branch of the Nilo-Saharan phylum. This family further includes:

• Nubian–Nara
  • Nubian, comprising Nobiin, Andaandi (Dongolawi), and Mattokki (Kenzi) spoken in Egypt in Sudan; Midob, (nearly) extinct Birgid, and the Kordofan Nubian (Ajang) languages in Sudan;
  • Nara, a small language spoken in Western Eritrea;
• Taman, comprising Tama and Mararit, in Darfur and Chad;
• Nyima, comprising Ama and Afitti in the Nuba Mountains in central Sudan.

Nubian and Nara are closest to Meroitic, yet unfortunately neither is close enough to allow for a quick and straightforward comparison of vocabulary and morphology. The split between the different branches of NES is supposed to have occurred in early third millennium BCE,4 so that the chronological depth between the NES sister-languages is comparable to the time gap that separates Indo-European languages. For that reason, the comparative method must not be used alone, but in combination with internal methods.

 

[Apollo]

@kobe Is this a new study? If so, how come many places still list it as unclassified?

Seems like the author, Claude Rilly, is a proponent of the NS theory. It still is an academic debate and not fully resolved until Artificial Intelligence cracks the code.

Rowan (2006, 2011) proposes that the Meroitic sound inventory and phonotactics (the only aspects of the language that are secure) are similar to those of the Afroasiatic languages, and dissimilar from Nilo-Saharan languages. For example, she notes that very rarely does one find the sequence CVC, where the consonants (C) are both labials or both velars, noting that is similar to consonant restrictions found throughout the Afroasiatic language family, suggesting that Meroitic might have been an Afroasiatic language like Egyptian.[30][31]

Claude Rilly (2004, 2007, 2012, 2016) is the most recent proponent of the Nilo-Saharan idea: he proposes, based in on its syntax, morphology, and known vocabulary, that Meroitic is Eastern Sudanic, the Nilo-Saharan family that includes Nubian. He finds, for example, that word order in Meroitic "conforms perfectly with other Eastern Sudanic languages, in which sentences exhibit verb-final order (SOV: subject-object-verb); there are postpositions and no prepositions; the genitive is placed before the main noun; the adjective follows the noun."[32][33]

 

[Marquis]

@kobe Is this a new study? If so, how come many places still list it as unclassified?

Seems like the author, Claude Rilly, is a proponent of the NS theory. It still is an academic debate and not fully resolved until Artificial Intelligence cracks the code.

Rowan (2006, 2011) proposes that the Meroitic sound inventory and phonotactics (the only aspects of the language that are secure) are similar to those of the Afroasiatic languages, and dissimilar from Nilo-Saharan languages. For example, she notes that very rarely does one find the sequence CVC, where the consonants (C) are both labials or both velars, noting that is similar to consonant restrictions found throughout the Afroasiatic language family, suggesting that Meroitic might have been an Afroasiatic language like Egyptian.[30][31]

Claude Rilly (2004, 2007, 2012, 2016) is the most recent proponent of the Nilo-Saharan idea: he proposes, based in on its syntax, morphology, and known vocabulary, that Meroitic is Eastern Sudanic, the Nilo-Saharan family that includes Nubian. He finds, for example, that word order in Meroitic "conforms perfectly with other Eastern Sudanic languages, in which sentences exhibit verb-final order (SOV: subject-object-verb); there are postpositions and no prepositions; the genitive is placed before the main noun; the adjective follows the noun."[32][33]

Yeah this is new, 2020:

Dotawo: A Journal of Nubian Studies 7 – punctum books

punctumbooks.com

 

[Apollo]

Yeah this is new, 2020:

Dotawo: A Journal of Nubian Studies 7 – punctum books

punctumbooks.com

I think in the case that they really did spoke NS then we are probably dealing with the Hungarian/Turkish-like scenario. A previous settled people with a different linguistic/ethnic origin being overtaken by hordes from nearby. If you go back far enough, pre-Meroitic (like the late Neolithic), this area definitely either spoke something Egyptian or Cushitic related.

 

[Nomadite]

Ive seen plenty of ethnic nubians, they were obviously nilo saharanized

 

[Shimbiris]

From looking at the archaeology, ancient Y-DNA and craniometric data I'm willing to bet they probably did speak Nilo-Saharan by the Meroitic period. But the much earlier inhabitants like the Kermans were likely Cushitic speaking. Nubians are basically Horners if you removed the Horn Hunter-Gatherer stuff and added a lot of real Dinka and Coptic stuff rather than something ancient and a little different from modern Egyptians and South Sudanese by mostly lacking the Iran-Chalcolithic and West-African stuff respectively which is what mostly makes up modern Horners when you account for the ancient Yemeni and Horn Hunter-Gatherer (Mota).

 

[Nomadite]

From looking at the archaeology, ancient Y-DNA and craniometric data I'm willing to bet they probably did speak Nilo-Saharan by the Meroitic period. But the much earlier inhabitants like the Kermans were likely Cushitic speaking. Nubians are basically Horners if you removed the Horn Hunter-Gatherer stuff and added a lot of real Dinka and Coptic stuff rather than something ancient and a little different from modern Egyptians and South Sudanese by mostly lacking the Iran-Chalcolithic and West-African stuff respectively which is what mostly makes up modern Horners when you account for the ancient Yemeni and Horn Hunter-Gatherer (Mota).

nomads swamping them from the sudd or eastern sudan it sounds like

 

[Apollo]

nomads swamping them from the sudd or eastern sudan it sounds like

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@Nomadite the scenario you have sketched happened in the reverse in ancient times to Chadic speakers. That is Nilotes becoming Afro-Asiatic.

The Chadic language family came to be because of Southern Maghrebis with Spanish/Italian origin paternal lineage R1b becoming ethnically nearly completely Nilo-Saharan. The Chadic language family split from Berbers. Basically what Tuaregs are doing now, but thousands of years before that. Most Chadic speakers are ethnically/racially Nilo-Saharan. The Hausa who are the most populous Chadic speakers are not even typical (when it comes to ethnic composition) for other Chadic speakers (ones in the East tend to be more Nilo-Saharan, less Niger-Congo). The Hausa are a mix between Niger-Congo people and Nilo-Saharan, with the majority of their ancestry being of Niger-Congo origin.

 

[-adobe_7853]

Ive seen plenty of ethnic nubians, they were obviously nilo saharanized

No Nubians look nilotic

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[Nomadite]

No Nubians look nilotic

truth be told they don't really look the same as standard horn cushites, they have obvious other components but my point was that they clearly weren't originally nilo saharan speakers.

 

[Apollo]

No Nubians look nilotic

2nd study does not have a Cushitic component and even there their Nilote component is not overwhelming, 1st study clearly debunks what you have claimed in this post. Are you blind? Their Coptic + Cushitic component way outnumbers the Nilote component.

 

[Timo Jareer and proud]

so we wuz not kangz und shiet soomaha

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

so we wuz not kangz und shiet soomaha

Language is only one aspect of identity. Genetically, they were still for the most part Cushitic.

Language shifts have been occurring since the beginning of time, but in many cases it's not the result of population replacement.

 

[Aurelian]

If we just had genetic analysis of the mommies, I remember apollo saying it will come out in few years