Medieval trade routes: Which Islamic explorer visited (& wrote about) Mogadishu in the 13th century?

[DuctTape]

lool I am actually laughing out loud man. Stop dissing me first of all.
I am trying to engage in critical discussion about 'our' history.
There is no need to get emotional and angry.

Also, i do believe that we held our ground and fended off the invaders, but i'm just trynna separate fact from ficiton here and the only way to do that is to ask the questions that people already assume they've answered.

Stop with the personal attacks. It is immature.

Besides the 'humilation fetish' comment, i appreciate your pointed response.

Giving an example of another nation that wasn't dominated violently by Arabs but that became Muslim nevertheless is a good way of responding.

So all you wanted was to discuss differing opinions and you did that by simply playing the devil's advocate in this situation
That's admirable but you don't normally get those kinds of objective academic discussions on a forum of this nature, especially this forum lol.
I retract my statement about humiliation fetishes
I mistook you for those sjws that claim that Somalis were enslaved and marginalised for hundreds of years by Arabs and Europeans

 

[Madara x]

So all you wanted was to discuss differing opinions and you did that by simply playing the devil's advocate in this situation
That's admirable but you don't normally get those kinds of objective academic discussions on a forum of this nature, especially this forum lol.
I retract my statement about humiliation fetishes
I mistook you for those sjws that claim that Somalis were enslaved and marginalised for hundreds of years by Arabs and Europeans

Lool I must say, if people taking pictures of books and citing external references to support arguments isn't a academic discussion, then i don't know what is.

I love my people. And i'm proud to be somali. (I'm stating this to counter an false assumptions floating around)

But we have been through some serious shit. We were marginalized, colonized, and fucked over by a lot of countries.

And we need to discuss this shit, and stop shoving it under the rug.

 

[DuctTape]

Lool I must say, if people taking pictures of books and citing external references to support arguments isn't a academic discussion, then i don't know what is.

I love my people. And i'm proud to be somali. (I'm stating this to counter an false assumptions floating around)

But we have been through some serious shit. We were marginalized, colonized, and fucked over by a lot of countries.

And we need to discuss this shit, and stop shoving it under the rug.

Okay. Let's start with what you define marginalisation (and being fucked over, colonisation is a moot point as it is a strictly defined term) as being, and when we were marginalised. I'm not denying the fact that we as a people have been through a lot of stuff, but this is a very subjective topic and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.
Either way, I wouldn't argue that colonisation has had massive effects on the Somali people socially. (By this I mean on our culture and self-image as a people in regards to the colonialists) Politically, yes, definitely. A whole lot of shit has gone down including the Ogaden being taken by Ethiopia, the NFD being taken by Kenya and Djibouti being split off from the rest of the country (though I hear that was done by popular vote so it probably doesn't count). You could also argue that colonialism caused the Somali Civil War in 1991. But socially? Colonisation hasn't brought with it the same lasting effects as it has in other African countries like Rwanda, Burundi or Kenya. There wasn't widespread discrimination against Somalis during the colonial era, the only thing we really have to show for colonisation culturally is a few Italian or English loanwords and a few dishes. Italian has pretty much died off with the older generations, English isn't massively spoken over there, Somali is pretty much still the mother tongue of the Somali people. Still, it all depends on what you see as valuable. Would you rather have had widespread discrimination against Somalis in exchange for us getting all our lands back? Would you rather have had us speaking a European language as our first language (losing Somali or at least having it lose importance as a working language) in exchange for us gaining "Greater Somalia"? It all depends on what your idea of being "fucked over" is, and what is more important to you in the long run.

 

[Madara x]

I don't understand. What does the author being a white person have to do with the historical validity of the source? And if he had some kind of racist agenda to "whitewash" or underplay the achievements of Africans, wouldn't he do the opposite, and underplay instead of seemingly overplaying them from your point of view? It's a little disappointing because so far you've been raising valid and reasonable arguments based on history and empirical evidence. The source itself literally describes Somalis attacking Portuguese fleets if I'm not mistaken, and if that isn't damaging to "muh white pride", then what is? Your argument doesn't make sense. Question a historical source based on how objective or accurate it is, not by the ethnicity of the fucking author.

 

[DuctTape]

Come on sxb :siilaanyosmile:

 

[Madara x]

Come on sxb :siilaanyosmile:

They say a picture is worth a thousand words

 

[Madara x]

Okay. Let's start with what you define marginalisation (and being fucked over, colonisation is a moot point as it is a strictly defined term) as being, and when we were marginalised. I'm not denying the fact that we as a people have been through a lot of stuff, but this is a very subjective topic and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.
Either way, I wouldn't argue that colonisation has had massive effects on the Somali people socially. (By this I mean on our culture and self-image as a people in regards to the colonialists) Politically, yes, definitely. A whole lot of shit has gone down including the Ogaden being taken by Ethiopia, the NFD being taken by Kenya and Djibouti being split off from the rest of the country (though I hear that was done by popular vote so it probably doesn't count). You could also argue that colonialism caused the Somali Civil War in 1991. But socially? Colonisation hasn't brought with it the same lasting effects as it has in other African countries like Rwanda, Burundi or Kenya. There wasn't widespread discrimination against Somalis during the colonial era, the only thing we really have to show for colonisation culturally is a few Italian or English loanwords and a few dishes. Italian has pretty much died off with the older generations, English isn't massively spoken over there, Somali is pretty much still the mother tongue of the Somali people. Still, it all depends on what you see as valuable. Would you rather have had widespread discrimination against Somalis in exchange for us getting all our lands back? Would you rather have had us speaking a European language as our first language (losing Somali or at least having it lose importance as a working language) in exchange for us gaining "Greater Somalia"? It all depends on what your idea of being "fucked over" is, and what is more important to you in the long run.

You know, the reason that i created the video-series in the first place was because I realized that there was no short-form method to explain what happened to us and what is still happening.

I would say, a good beginning point for our discussion to get more in depth is for you to just watch the video sections that i share on here: .

This is the table of contents for the whole series, you'll find the PDF in the description box under the vidoes:

I spend a whole hour discussing what 'colonization' and 'decolonization' mean in my youtube channel. And it's not my opinions that i share, but i mostly forth ideas from well-respected books on these sensitive topics.
So discussing it briefly here will only create confusion i think.

But i will say this, to a large degree we are still colonized.
At least on a geographic level, this is an indisputable fact.
Mainly because 3 of the 5 Somali territories (which are symbolically represented by the points on the star of the Somali flag) are still under foreign colonial control.
Ethiopia (which is a colonizing entity) still controls the ogaden.
Kenya (a British puppet) still controls NFD.
And Djibouti's currency is still the franc and its main national language is still French.

The fact that the Somali flag (which was formed a while ago) symbolizes a reality that has not been achieved yet says something about how fucked we are. Not our fault tho.
The destiny of every weakness is to be a strength someday.

 

[DuctTape]

You know, the reason that i created the video-series in the first place was because I realized that there was no short-form method to explain what happened to us and what is still happening.

I would say, a good beginning point for our discussion to get more in depth is for you to just watch the video sections that i share on here: .

This is the table of contents for the whole series, you'll find the PDF in the description box under the vidoes:

View attachment 11492



I spend a whole hour discussing what 'colonization' and 'decolonization' mean in my youtube channel. And it's not my opinions that i share, but i mostly forth ideas from well-respected books on these sensitive topics.
So discussing it briefly here will only create confusion i think.

But i will say this, to a large degree we are still colonized.
At least on a geographic level, this is an indisputable fact.
Mainly because 3 of the 5 Somali territories (which are symbolically represented by the points on the star of the Somali flag) are still under foreign colonial control.
Ethiopia (which is a colonizing entity) still controls the ogaden.
Kenya (a British puppet) still controls NFD.
And Djibouti's currency is still the franc and its main national language is still French.

The fact that the Somali flag (which was formed a while ago) symbolizes a reality that has not been achieved yet says something about how fucked we are. Not our fault tho.
The destiny of every weakness is to be a strength someday.

I agree 100%
At least we can maintain some semblance of pride as the only African country on the continent (as well as Morocco) to contest and fight against European borders and colonisation. Still, it's not much when we were karbaashed by the Soviet forces that the Ethiopians had to help them push the Somali troops back out of the Ogaden. Your point about us still being colonised is a good one, and shows that we as a people have been given a hell of a hard time by a whole lot of entities and individuals. But as you say, we will be able to overcome them one day.

 

[Madara x]

Sudan, also known as Nubia, has been in contact with Islam ever since the Muslims conquered Egypt. However, the spread of Islam was blocked from entering Sudan due to the Nubian state and their strong adherence and attachment to the Christian faith. The Muslims who conquered Egypt eventually tried to enter Nubia in the year 651 but they were met with fierce resistance and were forced to seek a truce.

Somalis on the other hand did not have any strong state that fought off invaders or any foreign religions like the Nubians did. At most you could say we had coastal cities, if even that. So there wasn't any major attraction that the Arabs had with us. We didn't share a border with them, and they did not want to conquer us as we didn't have any state worth conquering, that's assuming they even knew who we are.

Continuing on with Sudan, the pact or treaty maintained the independence of the Christian Nubian state as long as the lives of the Muslims were safeguarded. Therefore, the Sudanese were not actually subdued militarily, nor were they conquered. In reality, they maintained their autonomous status.

So how did Sudan become Islam-ised and eventually Arab-ised? Well, the treaty included the free movement of people between the states of Egypt and Nubia. In short, many nomadic Arab tribes moved into Nubia and they intermarried with the locals + tribal chiefs and they started to gain prominence. Their children would then go on to become chiefs, and through this it led to the establishment of powerful Muslim lineages. Though you could say that Islam first entered into Sudan through direct military confrontation with the intention of conquest where the Muslims were not successful, Islam penetrated into Sudan through intermarriage and the integration of Arabs into the Nubian society whilst the Muslim state maintained somewhat of an influence though they were friendly neighbours.

~to be continued.

Your explanation of how the Arabs infiltrated Sudan inspired me to share some info. All the quotes are from:

First there was a decisive battle between the Ethiopian empire (Nubia was a extended province of Ethiopia) and Egyptian Arabs. The blacks defeated the Arabs in the battle.


As a result, “An armistice was declared, and a treaty of peace was signed by the now undefeated equals, Abdullah for Muslim Egypt and Kalydosos for the Christian Kingdoms of Ethiopia” pg.145

“The Arabs had in fact lost the war. For with carefully trained and overwhelming forces filled with vengeance for the previous disaster, they were still unable to defeat the blacks and bring their country under Muslim control.” Pg.145

“The historic significance is twofold: (1) The physchological effects of being defeated by the blacks twice on broad national fronts caused the Arabs to adopt a peaceful relationship with these countries that lasted 600 years. (2) The treaty included provisions that were the basis for the expansion of slavery and the ‘peaceful’ conquest of the sudan. Goals which could not be achieved directly on the battle field were to be achieved indirectly by Arab traders and Muslim missonary brotherhoods”pg.145

Arabs engage in protracted economic and political warfare against blacks after military action fails

“From the earlies times and in almost every period of history, we find the whites carefully developing plans for future results which none expect to see realized in their lifetime. And so it was here in the Sudan in 652 A.D, when the peace treaty between Arabs and blacks was signed.”pg.145

“First the Arabs had to make their failure appear to the world as a victory of some sort. An annual tribute . . . became an important provision in the treaty. The terms called for the annual delivery of 360 slaves [prisoners of war, not racial] near the frontier and forty extra slaves as a gift to the Egyptian viceroy. In order to induce the Ethiopians [i.e, Sudanese people] to accept what at first appeared to be a tribute in fact, the Arab leaders presented it as a treaty of trade and commerce, agreeing to pay in exchange wheat, barley and wine at a value in excess of the gifts by Africans” pg.146

“More important than this, however, was the provision for building a great mosque in the restored Dongola and allowing Arab traders in only as traders, not settlers. Since it was a treaty ‘between equals’, the provisions of the treaty were reciprocal: black traders could operate in Egypt and have a church on the same terms.”pg.146

“Even if the Africans had not known that the Arabs in Egypt were busily converting churches and temples to Muslim mosques, there would still be no occasion for building a church for their traders in Egypt. [For] they had no long-range plans for the eventual control of Egypt through the trade and religion routes. But the Arabs did have such a plan for the eventual conquest of the Sudan through mosques and traders.” pg.146

“The caucasians [Arabs], unable to conquer the blacks directly, were contended when they had set in motion the process of gradual infiltration and expansion that would eventuate in victory even though it was to take 600 years”pg.146

Fucked up sit eh

 

[Madara x]

I agree 100%
At least we can maintain some semblance of pride as the only African country on the continent (as well as Morocco) to contest and fight against European borders and colonisation. Still, it's not much when we were karbaashed by the Soviet forces that the Ethiopians had to help them push the Somali troops back out of the Ogaden. Your point about us still being colonised is a good one, and shows that we as a people have been given a hell of a hard time by a whole lot of entities and individuals. But as you say, we will be able to overcome them one day.

I'm sure that if we stick with this proverb we will find salvation.

Long Live the Dervish Dream

 

[cantspeak]

Your explanation of how the Arabs infiltrated Sudan inspired me to share some info. All the quotes are from:

“The caucasians [Arabs], unable to conquer the blacks directly, were contended when they had set in motion the process of gradual infiltration and expansion that would eventuate in victory even though it was to take 600 years”pg.146

Fucked up sit eh

You can easily make the case that this is happening in present day Europe because of the recent Refugee Crisis and also the very low birth rate of the indigenous population.


Sneaky Arabs

 

[DuctTape]

You can easily make the case that this is happening in present day Europe because of the recent Refugee Crisis and also the very low birth rate of the indigenous population.


Sneaky Arabs

Long live Eurabia :siilaanyosmile:

 

[Lord Flacko]

I must say, i think that you've been misinformed. The image you paint is quite distorted.
This idea that you have, that we are strong mighty dignified warriors is very interesting.
I understand that ideas such as these are useful for building self-esteem. But is there any truth in them?

Have you read none of my posts here? Let me reiterate some more

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

You don't think we had to be warriors to fight the Xabashi, Oromo, Portuguese and other European s?

On another note, I know about the dervishes and what they did much more than you can imagine; and their bravery was (and still is) unparalleled. We'll discuss them another day.

Also, for your information, a person can have pride and still dare to ask difficult questions.

So you think I'm painting a picture of warrior Somalis as a way to boost my self-esteem, but you also claim to know and be proud of the Dervish ? (who are an example of the warrior Somali)

 

[Lord Flacko]

Loooooool

why are you citing wikipedia?

This is hilarious. But it's w/e because i checked the actual books your referred to. One of them dosen't even exit (The link for the Ajuuran empire) because When i clicked on the link on the wikipedia page it is not working. And the second one was written by a white dude. lol

I guess we can all create our own historical accounts if this is what people call research nowadays.

"b-b-but tell me how were we dominated again by Abu falafel?" Learn to do research son.

Book :
Portuguese rule and Spanish crown in South Africa, 1581-1640

Sidney R. Welch
Juta, 1950 - 634

As you can see, the mention of the Ajuran helping out Arabs is there on page 25. "Somali rulers of Mogadishu who sympathised with the beaten Arabs, -sent aid and help, - joined by boats manned by Somali sailors"
Is this clear enough for you or do I need to put it in a blender and force it down your throat?

"written by a white dude" that's the most retarded excuse I've ever heard. It's written by a fucking historian. Get over yourself.

The difference between you and me is that I use Wikipedia to find sources and check their validity.

f here means s. Another source on the Ajuran - Portuguese conflict.



You make fucking history videos but don't know jack shit and don't know how to Google either, and you're trying to tell me off when I'm giving you history lessons

 

[Somali psycho]

Greetings Fellow Somali's,

The answer to the question that I've mentioned in the thread-title, has been presented in section 5.0 of the my Somali-History video-presentation series.

Please watch it below, and give me some feed back on my youtube channel and on this thread . . .


Long live the Dervish dream,

Mahad.M.Hori

You're the same person who've said Sab are Bantu in one of your videos, with this kind of erroneous claim. how can we take you seriously? You can't fully understand or grasp Somali history by depending only on a handful of books written by foreign writers, so you should probably stop spreading false information.

 

[Madara x]

View attachment 11510View attachment 11513
Book :
Portuguese rule and Spanish crown in South Africa, 1581-1640

Sidney R. Welch
Juta, 1950 - 634

As you can see, the mention of the Ajuran helping out Arabs is there on page 25. "Somali rulers of Mogadishu who sympathised with the beaten Arabs, -sent aid and help, - joined by boats manned by Somali sailors"
Is this clear enough for you or do I need to put it in a blender and force it down your throat?
View attachment 11511
"written by a white dude" that's the most retarded excuse I've ever heard. It's written by a fucking historian. Get over yourself.

The difference between you and me is that I use Wikipedia to find sources and check their validity.
View attachment 11512
f here means s. Another source on the Ajuran - Portuguese conflict.



You make fucking history videos but don't know jack shit and don't know how to Google either, and you're trying to tell me off when I'm giving you history lessons

Okay, i retract my dismissive comment towards you.
I had trouble finding the Welch book so thanks for finding it for me.
When i googled the booked the book on the ajuuran, it was written in a different language so i just left it alone.
All in all your points make sense. Somalis did hold it down against foreign invaders.
Long live the dervish dream

 

[Madara x]

You're the same person who've said Sab are Bantu in one of your videos, with this kind of erroneous claim. how can we take you seriously? You can't fully understand or grasp Somali history by depending only on a handful of books written by foreign writers, so you should probably stop spreading false information.

I didn't say claim that the sab are bantu. The authors of the books the made that claim.
I merely presented the information so that we Somalis can have some sort of discussion about our history and the existing literature about it.

Also, in regards to the books that i used for the presentation series.
'Somali: a nation in search of a state' was written by two men, and one of them was Somalia.
'Divine madness' was written by a somali man.

If you feel like the information that the authors provided is inaccurate, then go do your own research.
Write your own books, and help the xalimos and farah's of the future to separate fact from fiction.

You are right about one thing tho. It is true that i can't fully understand Somali history by depending on a handful of books. But i'm sure that starting with a handful of books and presenting them to the general public, is a good way to begin trying to understand our History and separate fact from fiction.

Long live the dervish dream.