Ethno genesis of the Somali people

[Shadow-san]

What do you presume lead to the ethnogenesis of the current Somali people? How did the 'Somali' people emerge?

@Apollo @Shimbiris

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the first mention of the word 'Somali' in a letter sent by the Abyssinian king during the Adal-Abyssinian wars?

 

[Apollo]

@Shadow-san

Somali as in the Maxaa group is about 1,750-1,500 years old.

Somali as in all the other subgroups including Maay is about 3,000-2,500 years old.

 

[Shadow-san]

@Shadow-san

Somali as in the Maxaa group is about 1,750-1,500 years old.

Somali as in all the other subgroups including Maay is about 3,000-2,500 years old.

Any sources for that walaal? Like how did you reach that conclusion?

 

[Apollo]

Any sources for that walaal?

It is based on the genetic data I have observed over the years plus dates that linguists have set. A combination of that. Don't have an academic paper source for you, but it is relatively accurate.

 

[Shimbiris]

What do you presume lead to the ethnogenesis of the current Somali people? How did the 'Somali' people emerge?

@Apollo @Shimbiris

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the first mention of the word 'Somali' in a letter sent by the Abyssinian king during the Adal-Abyssinian wars?

The mention of the ethnic name is just 500-600 years old. Though, if I'm not mistaken, that Abyssinian poem doesn't call us Somalis but "Simur" which is supposedly what some Southern Ethiosemites called Somalis and fits with how Hararis apparently called Somalis "Tumur" in the early modern era which seems to relate to "Tumaal" since a lot of the Somalis in Harar were apparently blacksmiths, leatherworkers and other crafts people. Mentions of a Somali clan/tribe is about 800-900 years old when the Hawiye were mentioned as living near Marko in the 1100s and having it as their capital in the 1200s.

Appearance of Somali words in historical accounts is a little harder to narrow down. It could be as old as 2,000 years old given place names like "Avalites" (Awdal) and "Opone" (Xaafuun?) in the Periplus. Hell, all the other town names on the Somali coast probably are Hellenic bastardizations of Somali (definitely Cushitic) words. But for sure there's at least mentions within the last 700-1,000 years like the ones I've already mentioned and examples like calendrical and seasonal names relating to Adal from the 1300s, the word "Waaq" appearing in the 1200s as probably a misattribution to the Xabash as their word for God or place names like Xaafuun (Carfounna) from around 900 years ago.

Descriptions of people who clearly seem to be Somalis or ancestral Somalis seems anything from 1,000-2,000ybp in age on the Somali Peninsula. The Pi-pa-lo the Chinese describe in the 1200s, the Barbara the Arabs describe from the 1100s into 13-1400s all seem pretty blatantly Somali right down to descriptions like the Shafi'i sect, basically Somali sheep, the herding of camels and sheep, the dark skin, the spread from Saylac down to the Jubba, and the Chinese even mentioning the consumption of something that sounds an awful lot like Canjeero by what are clearly mostly pastoral nomads with some coastal towns and cities. The fact that the Greeks lump the "Barbaroi" of the Somali coast together with those on what is now the Eritrean, Sudanese and Djiboutian coasts and the archaeology making it obvious these were Coastal-Cushites... and the dubiousness I've pointed out in Ehret's theory that these were pre-Somali Saho-Afar-like Cushites Somalis assimilated along with the fact that North-Somali dialects have Old-South-Arabian loanwords which implies a presence in the north before around the 7th century:




Yeah, Somaloid types have been living along the Somali Peninsula and a good chunk of what is now Somaliweyn for quite some time, by the looks of it.

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[Som]

We have to work with the few written sources we have and oral traditions.
Somalis were called barbaroi by the Greeks which became barbar in Arabic.
The first mention of a somali clan is from the 12th century were an Arab scholar mentioned Hawiye living in Merca and the first mention of the word Somali is from a 15th Century Ethiopian text that mentions somalis as one of the people defeated by the Abyssinian empire in Zeila, obviously though Somalis existed long before that.
I think it's safe to say the somali ethnic group is around 2000 years old. There's still controversy as to where we originated. Some scholars suggest we emerged from southern Ethiopia, this opinion is now prevalent and had discarded the traditional view of somalis originating in the northern part of the somali peninsula.

 

[Som]

The mention of the ethnic name is just 500-600 years old. Though, if I'm not mistaken, that Abyssinian poem doesn't call us Somalis but "Simur" which is supposedly what some Southern Ethiosemites called Somalis and fits with how Hararis apparently called Somalis "Tumur" in the early modern era which seems to relate to "Tumaal" since a lot of the Somalis in Harar were apparently blacksmiths, leatherworkers and other crafts people. Mentions of a Somali clan/tribe is about 800-900 years old when the Hawiye were mentioned as living near Marko in the 1100s and having it as their capital in the 1200s.

Appearance of Somali words in historical accounts is a little harder to narrow down. It could be as old as 2,000 years old given place names like "Avalites" (Awdal) and "Opone" (Xaafuun?) in the Periplus. Hell, all the other town names on the Somali coast probably are Hellenic bastardizations of Somali (definitely Cushitic) words. But for sure there's at least mentions within the last 700-1,000 years like the ones I've already mentioned and examples like calendrical and seasonal names relating to Adal from the 1300s, the word "Waaq" appearing in the 1200s as probably a misattribution to the Xabash as their word for God or place names like Xaafuun (Carfounna) from around 900 years ago.

Descriptions of people who clearly seem to be Somalis or ancestral Somalis seems anything from 1,000-2,000ybp in age on the Somali Peninsula. The Pi-pa-lo the Chinese describe in the 1200s, the Barbara the Arabs describe from the 1100s into 13-1400s all seem pretty blatantly Somali right down to descriptions like the Shafi'i sect, basically Somali sheep, the herding of camels and sheep, the dark skin, the spread from Saylac down to the Jubba, and the Chinese even mentioning the consumption of something that sounds an awful lot like Canjeero by what are clearly mostly pastoral nomads with some coastal towns and cities. The fact that the Greeks lump the "Barbaroi" of the Somali coast together with those on what is now the Eritrean, Sudanese and Djiboutian coasts and the archaeology making it obvious these were Coastal-Cushites... and the dubiousness I've pointed out in Ehret's theory that these were pre-Somali Saho-Afar-like Cushites Somalis assimilated along with the fact that North-Somali dialects have Old-South-Arabian loanwords which implies a presence in the north before around the 7th century:




Yeah, Somaloid types have been living along the Somali Peninsula and a good chunk of what is now Somaliweyn for quite some time, by the looks of it.

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The Chinese accounts are a less reliable.
There are two main accounts. One is from the 9th century and talks about a land called PO PA LI They mention the natives as being raided by Arab slave traders. While this may have happened very occasionally there's no mention in Arab sources to a huge enslavement of barbar(somali). The Chinese also say po pa li enslaved each other which is not a tradition of somalis. They say the natives were cattle herders without mentioning sheep and camels and they also talk about exotic animals such as elephants. Keep in mind this is supposed to be the area around Berbera, it's unlikely they had elephants and it's weird camels were not mentioned. The Chinese sources even speak about natives drinking milk mixed with blood which is a Nilotic custom still practices by Masai. Somali were never mentioned as blood drinkers, if this was true you would expect Arabs mentioning at least a few somalis still practicing this tradition in the early stages of Islamization.
The second account is about PI PA LO around year 1000 and fits better with Somalia than the earlier account. In this account the Chinese say natives of PI PA LO were herders of camels and sheep, worshiped a Sky god (waaq maybe?) And Had lot's of incense and myrrh.
Maybe the First account refers to Kenya or southern Somalia, the second one fits better northern somalia

 

[Idilinaa]

OP the title of your thread ''Ethnogenesis of the Somali people'' and the question your posing are different from eachother.

Ethnogenesis is the formation and development of an ethnic group. It is not something indicated by simply by the first mention of the associated Somali ethnic name on paper.

We have to work with the few written sources we have and oral traditions
I think it's safe to say the somali ethnic group is around 2000 years old. There's still controversy as to where we originated. Some scholars suggest we emerged from southern Ethiopia, this opinion is now prevalent and had discarded the traditional view of somalis originating in the northern part of the somali peninsula.

Actually we don't only have to work with oral traditions or written documents to determine how the Somali ethinicity formed and shaped itself. Although it can compliment our understanding of it.

We can look at the genetic, archeological, cultural-linguistic, geographical evidences/sources.

Language is at the core of ethnic identities around the world and is through language that some people have even revived antique ethnic identiities . Languages are more durable, reliable and gives certain historians something of a traceable development . Thats why the feild of ''Historical Linguistics'' is very valuable.

Is through identification of language that we know that that certain documentation of history is false in relation to peoples origins. Thats how we know the popular Arab documented myth of Arab language & people originate in Yemen is false, when in actuality it was in the levant Sinai-North Arabia area that Arabic originated. The ones in geographical Southern Arabia spoke seperate languages.

So if we go by Historical linguistics Somalis are probably as a whole group 4500 years old or more , following what @Apollo indicated on the distance between Somali sub group languages-dialects.

As far as i know there is no real controversy about Somali ethnic origin at the present moment but there has been a past debate about it. If we look at newer scholars, including linguist Abdullahi Dirye suggest that Somalis originated in the North-Western part of the historical Somali region and thats because there are old archaic words in their language from their redsea neighbors, among other things as @Shimbiris indicated.

The process of Somali ethnic formation involves many things which i could probably make a thread about one day.

 

[Idilinaa]

The mention of the ethnic name is just 500-600 years old. Though, if I'm not mistaken, that Abyssinian poem doesn't call us Somalis but "Simur" which is supposedly what some Southern Ethiosemites called Somalis and fits with how Hararis apparently called Somalis "Tumur" in the early modern era which seems to relate to "Tumaal" since a lot of the Somalis in Harar were apparently blacksmiths, leatherworkers and other crafts people. Mentions of a Somali clan/tribe is about 800-900 years old when the Hawiye were mentioned as living near Marko in the 1100s and having it as their capital in the 1200s.

Appearance of Somali words in historical accounts is a little harder to narrow down. It could be as old as 2,000 years old given place names like "Avalites" (Awdal) and "Opone" (Xaafuun?) in the Periplus. Hell, all the other town names on the Somali coast probably are Hellenic bastardizations of Somali (definitely Cushitic) words. But for sure there's at least mentions within the last 700-1,000 years like the ones I've already mentioned and examples like calendrical and seasonal names relating to Adal from the 1300s, the word "Waaq" appearing in the 1200s as probably a misattribution to the Xabash as their word for God or place names like Xaafuun (Carfounna) from around 900 years ago.

Descriptions of people who clearly seem to be Somalis or ancestral Somalis seems anything from 1,000-2,000ybp in age on the Somali Peninsula. The Pi-pa-lo the Chinese describe in the 1200s, the Barbara the Arabs describe from the 1100s into 13-1400s all seem pretty blatantly Somali right down to descriptions like the Shafi'i sect, basically Somali sheep, the herding of camels and sheep, the dark skin, the spread from Saylac down to the Jubba, and the Chinese even mentioning the consumption of something that sounds an awful lot like Canjeero by what are clearly mostly pastoral nomads with some coastal towns and cities. The fact that the Greeks lump the "Barbaroi" of the Somali coast together with those on what is now the Eritrean, Sudanese and Djiboutian coasts and the archaeology making it obvious these were Coastal-Cushites... and the dubiousness I've pointed out in Ehret's theory that these were pre-Somali Saho-Afar-like Cushites Somalis assimilated along with the fact that North-Somali dialects have Old-South-Arabian loanwords which implies a presence in the north before around the 7th century:




Yeah, Somaloid types have been living along the Somali Peninsula and a good chunk of what is now Somaliweyn for quite some time, by the looks of it.

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Along with the facts you cited, we could potentially gain some valuable insights and information studying some of those inscriptions they found all over Northern-Western regions.

But the picture you have drawn does seem to show a basic population continuity of a people with similar/same culture and language throughout the breadth of the peninsuala.

 

[World]

The Proto-Somali language including Rendille, Boni, May, Maxaa existed between 1790- 2228 years ago according to experts.

Source: https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/858/1/The Sam Languages.pdf

 

[Shimbiris]

The Chinese accounts are a less reliable.
There are two main accounts. One is from the 9th century and talks about a land called PO PA LI They mention the natives as being raided by Arab slave traders. While this may have happened very occasionally there's no mention in Arab sources to a huge enslavement of barbar(somali). The Chinese also say po pa li enslaved each other which is not a tradition of somalis. They say the natives were cattle herders without mentioning sheep and camels and they also talk about exotic animals such as elephants. Keep in mind this is supposed to be the area around Berbera, it's unlikely they had elephants and it's weird camels were not mentioned. The Chinese sources even speak about natives drinking milk mixed with blood which is a Nilotic custom still practices by Masai. Somali were never mentioned as blood drinkers, if this was true you would expect Arabs mentioning at least a few somalis still practicing this tradition in the early stages of Islamization.
The second account is about PI PA LO around year 1000 and fits better with Somalia than the earlier account. In this account the Chinese say natives of PI PA LO were herders of camels and sheep, worshiped a Sky god (waaq maybe?) And Had lot's of incense and myrrh.
Maybe the First account refers to Kenya or southern Somalia, the second one fits better northern somalia

Po-Pa-Li isn't the Somali coast. Seems more like some place south of it that's been misattributed by some authors:

800 CE Po-pa-li is not Somalia but 1100 CE Pi-pa-lo is?

Over a year ago, in a post , I delved into a Chinese account by an author named Duan Chengshi (died around circa. 863 CE) where he mentio...

anthromadness.blogspot.com

Pi-Pa-Lo seems very blatantly the Somali coast as many scholars seem to agree. Also, Pipalo is from the 1100s, if I'm not mistaken. But my bad as earlier I recounted it as being from the 1200s.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

Somalis are primarily Cushitic with direct Arabian admixture which imo probably post-dates Islam

Target: Somali_Somalia
Distance: 1.4759% / 0.01475949 | ADC: 0.25x RC
89.4 Kenya_Pastorals
8.0 Yemenite_Jew
2.6 Morocco_UP_Taforalt_(Iberomaurusian)

Target: Somali_Somaliland
Distance: 1.4403% / 0.01440274 | ADC: 0.25x RC
91.8 Kenya_Pastorals
5.0 Yemenite_Jew
3.2 Morocco_UP_Taforalt_(Iberomaurusian)

 

[Moholin01]

@Shimbiris
@Apollo

Is there any truth to the "somalis descend from Natufians" claims, or is it just a meme?

 

[Shimbiris]

@Shimbiris
@Apollo

Is there any truth to the "somalis descend from Natufians" claims, or is it just a meme?

We probably are in part descended from them. We definitely have some Neolithic era ancestry from the Levant via Egypt so that naturally means some descent from Natufians and also Epipaleolithic Anatolians. Somalis even show mtDNA ties to prehistoric Anatolia like N1a1a and K1a. But it is overdone with Natufians. I think people are making too much of how we favor them, like Arabians do, in ADMIXTURE runs and Global25 models which probably has more to do with something Iberomaurusian-like existing in Epipaleolithic Egypt that we are descended from that drifts us away from looking too Anatolian or Levantine Neolithic.

 

[Apollo]

Somalis are primarily Cushitic with direct Arabian admixture which imo probably post-dates Islam

Target: Somali_Somalia
Distance: 1.4759% / 0.01475949 | ADC: 0.25x RC
89.4 Kenya_Pastorals
8.0 Yemenite_Jew
2.6 Morocco_UP_Taforalt_(Iberomaurusian)

Target: Somali_Somaliland
Distance: 1.4403% / 0.01440274 | ADC: 0.25x RC
91.8 Kenya_Pastorals
5.0 Yemenite_Jew
3.2 Morocco_UP_Taforalt_(Iberomaurusian)

I don't think so.

Let's wait for more ancient genomes from the Somaliweyn territory.

I think proto-Somalis from the 3,000-2,500 YBP period will most likely be more Eurasian related than current Somalis as the absorption of Somaliweyn hunter-gatherers was likely not completed until ~2,000-1,500 YBP, IMO.

Maybe the Somalis of ~2,000-1,500 YBP may have been slightly more African related than current Somalis and some South Semitic and Islamic Arabian admixture changed it in the North, but still that is up in the air.

 

[Shimbiris]

I don't think so.

Let's wait for more ancient genomes from the Somaliweyn territory.

I think proto-Somalis from the 3,000-2,500 YBP period will most likely be more Eurasian related than current Somalis as the absorption of Somaliweyn hunter-gatherers was likely not completed until ~2,000-1,500 YBP, IMO. Maybe the Somalis of ~2,000 YBP may have been slightly more African related than current Somalis and some South Semitic and Islamic Arabian admixture changed it in the North, but still that is up in the air.

Xabash and ancient Yemeni admixture is found at the same rates in Koonfur too, even in NFD. And I dunno, walaal, I'm still of the opinion that Mota-related ancestry in us came either from when our ancestors were in Ethiopia or through a migration from there into our territories that Somalis integrated. I don't think HGs on the Somali peninsula had much of an impact. They were tiny splinter groups by the looks of it and probably just got overwhelmed and wiped out by our pastoralist ancestors. Maybe they still exist a bit in the form of some mtDNA markers but I'd be surprised at much else.

Update:

I hope you're right, though. Would be sad to think they didn't leave behind anything genetically.

 

[Apollo]

Xabash and ancient Yemeni admixture is found at the same rates in Koonfur too, even in NFD. And I dunno, walaal, I'm still of the opinion that Mota-related ancestry in us came either from when our ancestors were in Ethiopia or through a migration from there into our territories that Somalis integrated. I don't think HGs on the Somali peninsula had much of an impact. They were tiny splinter groups by the looks of it and probably just got overwhelmed and wiped out by our pastoralist ancestors. Maybe they still exist a bit in the form of some mtDNA markers but I'd be surprised at much else.

Controversial take, but Hawiyes are most likely a population similar to North-Central Somalis who expanded to the South like Marehans, but earlier.

We need more ancient genomes from Somaliweyn as I think Kenyan and Ethiopian ancient genomes can be misleading about the population history of Somaliweyn. The Marsabit/NFD arid zone was a population barrier and the Ethiopian highlands were also one.

 

[The alchemist]

Natufian is a convenient proxy for whatever the Somalis have. We don't think we have direct Natufian (straight from the Epipaleolithic) ancestry. I would say, Late Paleolithic and Early Neolithic (with enriched Northwest African/Natufian-related characteristics) from Egypt, and some Levantine farmer ancestry from the descendants of Natufians.

Post-migration Peninsular influence as well.

 

[Shimbiris]

Controversial take, but Hawiyes are most likely a population similar to North-Central Somalis who expanded to the South like Marehans, but earlier.

We need more ancient genomes from Somaliweyn as I think Kenyan and Ethiopian ancient genomes can be misleading about the population history of Somaliweyn. The Marsabit/NFD arid zone was a population barrier and the Ethiopian highlands were also one.

The Jubba often sounds like a barrier as well in historical accounts. If you follow the linguistics and Arab as well as Chinese historical sources carefully the Jubba sounds like the main barrier between Zanj and Barbara. So the river, the arid zone and the highlands along with pastoralist like Somalis and Oromos' aggression were probably the historical barriers against Bantu expansion into the Horn.

 

[Apollo]

The Jubba often sounds like a barrier as well in historical accounts. If you follow the linguistics and Arab as well as Chinese historical sources carefully the Jubba sounds like the main barrier between Zanj and Barbara. So the river, the arid zone and the highlands along with pastoralist like Somalis and Oromos' aggression were probably the historical barriers against Bantu expansion into the Horn.

This is from historical accounts in the Middle Ages though.. while I am speaking about changes happening around early Roman times.

I think ancient genomes from Eastern K5, HGs from Bay, early Pastoralists from Djibouti / West Somaliland will confuse people a lot like the Taforalt genomes were unexpected how they turned out to be.