Does Theocracy Destroy Or Support Religion

[DR OSMAN]

@Inquisitive_ let's debate openly and freely on Theocracies.

I am of the view religion is holy outside politics not interwined with it becuz politics essentially corrupts people along the line of 'power, greed, interests' u cannot separate that from politics and if you infuse religion it becomes contaminated thru it. An example Somali parliament has the quran inside of it, but they gamble n compete for seats or posts. This has indirectly stained the quran, as a believer will step away and conclude religion must be fake or it's been hijacked.

The other problem is how do u govern Allah 'laws' without being 'Allah' in the process? this is a huge dilemma becuz religion has to be about free will and free will isn't possible if it's 'enforced' hence religion mission is pointless. I should be able to choose not to drink or do zina thru 'choice', that's real religion, but if it's enforced on me, their is no 'choice' hence religion is pointless.

I don't support 'atheism' either in power as I know politics corrupts and leads to one side trying to eliminate the opposing side, stalin-mao and many atheists have proven once given power their not much different to the theocracies they criticize.

So I've concluded the best system is secularism which allows all to co-exist believers n disbelievers, allows for free will and the exercise of choices which is far more in-line with religion so no-one starts to assume god's role or 'partners' to god and begin doing his work. Plus atheism/religion remain far more pure/holy when not infused with power and politics, it's simply a win-win for all.

 

[DR OSMAN]

Somalia prays, fasts, uses religion everyday and then u see their nation, culture, values, and productivity is at the lowest in the world, doesn't this tell you it's time to change and not hold this failed course with pride? every aspect in somalia is dysfunctional yet they say their muslims, does that add up? Isn't Islam supposed to make u the best in the world or the worst?

Islam needs to separate itself from politics if it wants to last as politics leads to clashes not unity which is the purpose of religion is to unify ppl, u can't unify ppl if ur playing politics. Plus it may even indirectly help it clean it's image up as more ppl turn to it away from 'politicians', but if it's embedded in the state with all the filth we see, Islam will not survive.

 

[GemState]

Somalis really remind me of Egyptians, in truth we're quite secular. We just care about appearances.

 

[reer]

Somalis really remind me of Egyptians, in truth we're quite secular. We just care about appearances.

women in niqab selling qat.

 

[Inquisitive_]

@Inquisitive_ let's debate openly and freely on Theocracies.

I am of the view religion is holy outside politics not interwined with it becuz politics essentially corrupts people along the line of 'power, greed, interests' u cannot separate that from politics and if you infuse religion it becomes contaminated thru it. An example Somali parliament has the quran inside of it, but they gamble n compete for seats or posts. This has indirectly stained the quran, as a believer will step away and conclude religion must be fake or it's been hijacked.

The other problem is how do u govern Allah 'laws' without being 'Allah' in the process? this is a huge dilemma becuz religion has to be about free will and free will isn't possible if it's 'enforced' hence religion mission is pointless. I should be able to choose not to drink or do zina thru 'choice', that's real religion, but if it's enforced on me, their is no 'choice' hence religion is pointless.

I don't support 'atheism' either in power as I know politics corrupts and leads to one side trying to eliminate the opposing side, stalin-mao and many atheists have proven once given power their not much different to the theocracies they criticize.

So I've concluded the best system is secularism which allows all to co-exist believers n disbelievers, allows for free will and the exercise of choices which is far more in-line with religion so no-one starts to assume god's role or 'partners' to god and begin doing his work. Plus atheism/religion remain far more pure/holy when not infused with power and politics, it's simply a win-win for all.

What you fail to understand is that a debased people regardless what system or processes you put in front of them or how robust they are, they will not only fail but find a way to corrupt it, you already see this in our presidential election as well as regional, in which we follow a secular, democratic approach.

It always works in this order, people -> processes -> systems. If you don't have the people, no system, believe or 'ism is ever going to work.

I agree with you on the ramifications of using religion as we are dealing with especially shameless people, but again you can replace that with any other 'ism', and the outcome will be similar, we simply don't have the people.

The Israelites when they refused to enter Palestine with Musa and mocked him, there punishment was 40 years in the wilderness in the inhospitable sinai desert, enough time for the old generation to die off and a new tough generation to rise up that included Dawud and Solomon that ended up ruling the world.

I am not convinced that our generation is much better then our fathers generations, but time will tell. But the work needs to focus on the people, not the processes or systems.

 

[DR OSMAN]

What you fail to understand is that a debased people regardless what system or processes you put in front of them or how robust they are, they will not only fail but find a way to corrupt it, you already see this in our presidential election as well as regional, in which we follow a secular, democratic approach.

It always works in this order, people -> processes -> systems. If you don't have the people, no system, believe or 'ism is ever going to work.

I agree with you on the ramifications of using religion as we are dealing with especially shameless people, but again you can replace that with any other 'ism', and the outcome will be similar, we simply don't have the people.

The Israelites when they refused to enter Palestine with Musa and mocked him, there punishment was 40 years in the wilderness in the inhospitable sinai desert, enough time for the old generation to die off and a new tough generation to rise up that included Dawud and Solomon that ended up ruling the world.

I am not convinced that our generation is much better then our fathers generations, but time will tell. But the work needs to focus on the people, not the processes or systems.

Strong points wallahi the people will rot the system from within, so no matter what system proposed it will collapse or be so faulty and low quality that it doesn't achieve the objectives it was designed for.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Inquisitive_ do u think if we implement strong audit checks that are independent from the govt will 'catch the bad ones' or will the audit system itself collapse? I found their is a 'lack' of accountability in people which may lead to this behavior u mentioned. When u think your 'landheere' and nothing or any1 can touch u, the system itself becomes compromised.

A national ID system of the people may help, naming n shaming in public, court systems where names/clan are recorded and crimes, names/clan identification on ID so we can measure corruption/crime/unproductivity/unemployment and present this to the nation, wat u think of these measures? even in companies a similar name/clan id to stamp out lazy and corrupt ppl and reward good ppl who don't lose faith the 'filth' are allowed to survive. I think once they know their accountable, this may lead to reduction or elimination of the undesirable behavior.

This wud be an awesome somali wide system, only ppl who refuse it are those that are scared they and their clans will be measured on goodness, even allah says he will measures every1 on individual/tribe/nation level for goodness, why cant our nation follow the same principle, wallahi if we did that, I think the hope of a productive people would emerge over night. Islam has some good ideas like god measuring ppl value, shouldn't our govt replicate this 'philosophy'

 

[Shaafici Mujaahid]

Religion is preserved but religiosity will be destroyed under theocracy like what you see happen to Iran or soon to be Afghanistan with people becoming irreligious due to religiosity being used as a control mechanism by the government. It's why Somalis hate communism because Siyaad Barre enforced it by the barrel of the gun along with secularism. Had Siyaad Barre been an "Islamist" despot, we would've been the most cilmaani people.